Guns don't kill people, people kill people

Author: Double_R

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#31
RationalMadman
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tool of convenience... right.

So, these right wing nutjobs who are against therapy can realise the problem is psychiatric but won't support funding mental healthcare campaigns and services.

These same nutjobs will then say 'give them any weapon they want, they will kill anyway' not realising someone can kill a lot more people with a gun than with a knife or baseball bat. Sure, a ninja can kill many with knives but the training and discipline that takes often actually shakes out the impulsivity in them that would lead them to any kind of irrational mass murder (talking theoretically, I could be wrong).
#32
PREZ-HILTON
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These same nutjobs will then say 'give them any weapon they want, they will kill anyway' not realising someone can kill a lot more people with a gun
If somebody wants to commit mass murder, they aren't moving from gun to knife. They are moving from gun to poison. Did you know that most convenience stores have coffee canisters which are easily accessible. You can take a road trip and hit 100 convenience stores and poison those canisters within a 5 or 6 hour window killing a thousand people instead of maximum of like what 20 in a shooting. 

They could actually even steal a fire truck and put a bunch of acid in the hose and just drive down a busy street spraying people. This is the type of thing that will happen. 

So, these right wing nutjobs who are against therapy can realise the problem is psychiatric but won't support funding mental healthcare campaigns and services.

The only reason it is called psychiatric is because so many shooters have a record of getting psychological help. These people are already getting mental health services. That isn't going to fix the issue. I get why you want Americans dead, so you will distract from actual solutions. However this problem does affect actual Americans, so most of us would prefer that people actually work towards actual solutions instead of lying and saying it is a mental health thing, just because they want more funds for that, or lying and saying it is a gun issue because they prefer the government be able to subjegate citizens easier.

It's quite obviously a cultural issue and any solution not focused on that, is evil because it is merely using these shootings to get pet projects funded
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#33
Double_R
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@Mharman
It doesn't. Every gun death has a human element to it.
Yes, every gun death also has a 'presence of a gun' element to it.

The difference generally speaking is that gun safety advocates understand this full well and make no attempt to refute it. 2A advocates meanwhile often argue implicitly or explicitly that the presence of a gun is not the issue, that instead is all about the people involved.

The fact that you can always find a person to blame (the parents in this example) is irrelevant to the fact that without a gun in the picture no child would have ended up dead. So when people say "guns don't kill people" that statement is just plain wrong in any  meaningful sense.

The two elements (the person and the gun) will always be present in every gun death. The 2A advocate strategy is to pretend only one is to blame and then argue that one should be the person and not the gun (because how do you blame an object?). That's just childish simpleton nonsense. We need to look at the whole picture.

The other issue with blaming the parents is that there was no malice involved here, just irresponsibility. But human beings are inherently irresponsible, so while the criticism is valid in any individual scenario, it is not a valid argument when we're debating public policy. The argument there is essentially that human beings need to stop being human beings.

That is a good argument in favor of requiring those courses. I will be on board with this if the process is quick enough for someone who urgently needs a gun.
If someone urgently needs a gun that is all the more reason to not sell it to them. That's literally the point of a mandatory waiting period.

Not very high up, but that is irrelevant. Surely you could save some lives by passing lighter control, no? 

Alternatively, we could have entire campaigns telling parents to keep their kids away from lighters, and kids to stay away from lighters. Couple that with improvements in child safety mechanisms, and we could have a decrease in the rate of those types of incidents.
Everything we do is a result of a cost/benefit analysis. Guns are a contentious issue because they are a frequent cause of unnecessary deaths in this country, while the benefits of having so many guns out there and so easily accessible is minimal.

Lighters are far more useful and necessary to the functioning of our society and cause no where near as many casualties. The idea that we would put all of these requirements in for lighters is therefore every bit as absurd as it sounds.
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#34
Double_R
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@PREZ-HILTON
They are moving from gun to poison. Did you know that most convenience stores have coffee canisters which are easily accessible. You can take a road trip and hit 100 convenience stores and poison those canisters within a 5 or 6 hour window killing a thousand people instead of maximum of like what 20 in a shooting. 
How are people out there seriously making this argument?

Please show me the statistics on mass poisonings.

However this problem does affect actual Americans, so most of us would prefer that people actually work towards actual solutions
Strangely, no other developed nation on earth suffers the same amount of gun deaths as the US. I wonder what they do differently...
#35
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@Double_R
How are people out there seriously making this argument?

Please show me the statistics on mass poisonings.
The goal of a mass shooter is to kill as many people as humanly possible. If you remove guns, are knifes more effective at that or is discreet poisonings across the country more effective at not only doing so but decreasing the chances of getting caught so you can get a higher kill count? 

Strangely, no other developed nation on earth suffers the same amount of gun deaths as the US. I wonder what they do differently...
There are countries with more or similar guns per Capita and it doesn't happen. Switzerland has very high gun ownership and it doesn't happen, so does Yemen. If you handed a gun to every German tomorrow, I think you know they wouldn't have the same problem. It's not a gun issue. If you hate American citizens and want them to die than there are better ways to do that than by lying and claiming gun ownership is the root cause of these shootings.
#36
Best.Korea
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You cant remove guns. You can ban them. People will still get them illegally.

Again, you are following the logic:

Mass murderer has a gun = bad for us

Mass murderer doesnt have a gun = now we are safe

People have historically demonstrated that knives, bombs, cars and poisons can kill plenty of people even if you somehow succeed in removing all the illegal guns.
#37
Athias
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@Double_R
No one is claiming the gun should be held accountable.
Aren't you?

The idea being pushed by this talking point is that the presence of guns is irrelevant, if someone ends up dead only the people involved should be factored into the equation.
Yes, that's what's called accountability. Because the use of firearms in a violent altercation DOES NOT HAPPEN without the people involved. Once again, guns are inanimate objects. Case in point: if by some chance I were involved in a car accident that resulted in the death of another, do you factor my car into the equation? Maybe. If my car's malfunction led to the circumstances which informed the accident, but even then the manufacturers would be held accountable.

In this scenario, without the gun being in the picture, no one ends up dead. Do you deny this? Would you argue that the child shot to death would have ended up dead another way regardless?
This is pure sophistry. You purposefully created a hypothetical where a child dies as a result of being shot. So obviously, I cannot "deny" that the child in your scenario died as a result of another child's firearm use. And if you're not holding the child gunman accountable, then you're obviously holding the gun accountable, which you denied. It is also obvious, which I presume you acknowledge, that there are many hypothetical scenarios we can indulge where that child dies by other means.
#38
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@RationalMadman
These same nutjobs will then say 'give them any weapon they want, they will kill anyway' not realising someone can kill a lot more people with a gun than with a knife or baseball bat.
What difference does that make?
#39
Athias
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@Best.Korea
Mass murderer has a gun = bad for us

Mass murderer doesnt have a gun = now we are safe

People have historically demonstrated that knives, bombs, cars and poisons can kill plenty of people even if you somehow succeed in removing all the illegal guns.
Well stated.
#40
badger
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Moronic. A country littered with assault rifles and machine guns, weapons of mass destruction, but why aren't we worried about knives?

That's what you sound like. 
#41
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The American right is ludicrous. Hell awaits.
#42
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You cant remove guns. You can ban them. People will still get them illegally.

This is also nonsense. There's serious manufacturing in guns which means huge complications in supply. For what demand? People who'll buy them and hide them under their bed never to use them because to use them is to announce to everyone that you have them?

Guns and drugs are not equivalent where it comes to the black market. 
#43
Best.Korea
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@badger
There's serious manufacturing in guns which means huge complications in supply.
Yeah. Have you ever heard of illegal import?
#44
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@badger
America is screwed because the left is just as ludicrous.

Huge complications in supply...

Sadly, guns are still usable for decades and longer if kept oiled.
#45
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@Greyparrot
No they're not. Sidewalker, Double, oro, whiteflame, FLRW - all sensible, decent people. The right contingent on here are clowns pretty much just with the exception of thett. And you the great fat absurdity they revolve around. You remind me of the Baron Harkonen, GP.
#46
badger
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@Best.Korea
From where? Switzerland? 
#47
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@badger
Sidewalker, Double, oro, whiteflame, FLRW..
Those people don't run the Democrat party. None of those decent people are represented by today's Democrat party. 
There's not a single one of them happy with Biden.

America is screwed.

You remind me of the Baron Harkonen, GP.
Hmm what character would you be in Herberts world?

Probably Duke Leto, morally twisted between the perception of the greater of evils, but strong enough to bite the suicide tooth at the end, even under a drunken Irish stupor.


#48
Best.Korea
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@badger
From where? Switzerland?
So you havent heard of it.

#49
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Sadly, guns are still usable for decades and longer if kept oiled.

So what? If and when they're used, they're confiscated. And slap on a heavy penalty for having kept them.
#50
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@Best.Korea
You are spectacularly uninteresting. 
#51
Best.Korea
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Oh those arbitrary tauntrums. Gotta love them.
#52
Greyparrot
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@badger
You do realize that our law enforcement barely catches 10% of all the criminals in our most gun violent prone cities. It will be a very long time before all those guns are confiscated, assuming criminals do not replace them with stolen or illegal guns and the law enforcement isn't slapped with a lawsuit for having systemic racist policies....

America is screwed.
#53
TWS1405_2
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@badger
Moronic. A country littered with assault rifles and machine guns, weapons of mass destruction, but why aren't we worried about knives?

That's what you sound like. 

Machine guns? 🤦‍♂️
Civilians don’t own machine guns. 
There is no such thing as an “assault” rifle. 🙄
More people die in the US by hands, fists and feet every single year than by rifles of any kind.
More people die in the US by blunt and stabbing objects every single year than by rifles of any kind. 
The overwhelming vast majority of violent acts are committed with a handgun, not a rifle. 
Yet “morons” like you focus on rifles while ignoring violent human behavior spawned from mental illnesses. 
People like you are a part of the problem, not the solution.  🖕🏿 
#54
YouFound_Lxam
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@Double_R
A five year finds a gun that was stashed away, decides to walk over to the playgroundold and play with it. Three minutes later a child is shot to death.

Question: Was that child who was shot to death killed by a gun or killed by another child?
Obviously the child who was shot to death was killed by the child.
But does this mean the child is responsible for that action. Again motive plays a big role in murder. 
#55
n8nrgim
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if someone makes person A mad when they are driving and person A has a gun... doesn't it stand to reason that person A is more likely to kill someone if they have a gun than if they dont? if two people are arguing, and someone has a gun, doesn't it stand to reason that someone is more likely to die than if neither had a gun? 

and if ya'll want to get stupid about it... gun actually do kill people. the person involved killed someone, the gun did, and the bullet did as well. literally, that's the truth. but ya'll would rather play games than address the real issues. 

ya'll are just irrational and idiotic, that's all this boils down to.
#56
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@n8nrgim
Sorry, but if you throw a million guns overboard to the bottom of the Pacific, you can't claim a single one of those guns could kill a person. So you cannot make the general claim that all guns kill people.

 gun actually do kill people.
#57
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@TWS1405_2
There would be fewer mass shootings if "automatic" type weapons were outlawed. People could still defend themselves in most situations without them.
#58
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@b9_ntt
You know that 81 percent of all mass shootings had a semi-auto handgun involved in the killing right? So you are OK with that level of slaughter?
#59
TWS1405_2
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@b9_ntt
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@<<<TWS1405_2>>>
There would be fewer mass shootings if "automatic" type weapons were outlawed. People could still defend themselves in most situations without them.

There is NO situation where a deranged lunatic brings a handgun, shotgun or rifle to a massacre where someone can defend themselves without equal lethal recourses. Pretty dumb opinion there. 
#60
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@TWS1405_2
Yet “morons” like you focus on rifles while ignoring violent human behavior spawned from mental illnesses. 

I don't focus on shit. I think you should ban all guns like pretty much the entire rest of the world. It is especially ugly however when kids bring death machines to school and blow each other away. There's no other regular occurrence the world over which comes close to comparing. Congrats, you're number 1. 

 It will be a very long time before all those guns are confiscated,
What's your plan, genius? Sell another 300 million guns?

GP your whole politics would have the US government shoveling food into your fat mouth. Fuck Ukraine. Fuck black people. Fuck anyone trying to scrape any bit of fair treatment for themselves. It's ugly as hell, dude. You are a degenerate.