Someone will die over this nonsense.

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 54
#31
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@Lemming
I’m not xenophobic, nationalist or even patriotic, tribalism is however somewhat intrinsic to our nature.

 Thanks for the link to Discover the Truth, interesting.
 
Your quote:
 "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin. I think people need a measure of both liberty and safety, or as I would put it security and freedom and we need to find a workable balance between the two.
  
#32
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@Stephen
I asked you:
They believed he (Rushdie) has disrespected and insulted Islam i.e had committed blasphemy.

What do you believe had caused them to believe this?#27


I don’t know, I give up, you tell me. Show me the Islamic teachings that specifically order the death penalty for blasphemy.
#33
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,346
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
@NoOneInParticular, as this post meanders a bit, I feel.

Well, those three words are all a 'bit similar to me,
Though of course they aren't 'quite matches,
And even if I'm xenophobic a bit, doesn't mean I can't be a xenophile as well.
Not a contradiction in my mind,
So long as they take place in different aspects of life.

People 'do seem to like a middle ground, I'd agree,
Between being free to do as they like,
And being constrained along with everyone else,
For one's own and everyone else's safety.

America, I want to say,
Often get's focused on our Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights,
Big on the individual,

Then various inclusions to all,
The Civil War, Emancipation Proclamation,
Women's Rights, then Civil Rights Movement,
Though it's long seemed to me, we 'really went in the direction of including everyone, after WW2,
As though polar opposite-izing ourselves from the Nazi's.
But I don't know history too well.

Then there's all our business and worker's rights stuff,
'Kind of got anti-Monopoly with Theodore Roosevelt,
But there's also lot's of times the government sided with business I think.

Ahh, and all those American gangsters and outlaws,
Political figures getting assassinated a few times,
New media,
Probably hurt gun rights, I think,
Trade for safety,
Which isn't 'unreasonable, I just prefer living somewhere 'with those rights myself.

I'm probably missing 'tons of history, events, politicians and such,
Just my pop culture limited ameteur view of American history.

. . .

Not sure what the UK and such, base focus around in their history of freedom and public safety.

Magna Carta get's mentioned in American Independence films, I want to say.

Ah wait! Oliver Twist, and that whole time period of industrialization in Britain.
Topic's author
#34
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott
I asked you:
They believed he (Rushdie) has disrespected and insulted Islam i.e had committed blasphemy.

What do you believe had caused them to believe this?#27


I don’t know, I give up, you tell me.

Well as much as you appear to be playing ignorant, what caused them to believe this comes from  Islamic teaching.  The link I have shown you specifically state shariah is derived from  two primary sources;
Sharia, or sharia law, is the Islamic legal system derived from the religious precepts of Islam, particularly the Quran and the Hadith.

The term sharia comes from the Arabic language term sharīʿah, Arabic: شريعة‎  which means a body of moral and religious law derived from religious prophecy, as opposed to human legislation. Sharia deals with many topics, including crime, politics, and economics, as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, hygiene, diet, prayer, everyday etiquette and fasting. Adherence to sharia has served as one of the distinguishing characteristics of the Muslim faith historically. In its strictest and most historically coherent definition, sharia is considered in Islam as the infallible law of God. There are two primary sources of sharia: the Quran, and the Hadiths (opinions and life example of Muhammad).



I totally agree that Muslims should be encouraged to integrate but the hostility towards Muslims, the anti-Muslim rhetoric and attacking their holy book is not really conducive to this and as I said previously it creates a vicious circle of distrust and hate.#24
Encouraged by whom?
Does this report released today show any intention of encouragement to integrate, Elliot?

Didsbury Mosque 'turned a blind eye' to Islamist extremism before the Manchester Arena terror attack

A former Didsbury Mosque imam has told the Manchester Arena Inquiry support for terror groups was preached there.



#35
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
Religion is inspired by ignorance.

Nutty Man based religion is inspired by ignorance and testosterone.

Doesn't matter which club.

But some clubs tend to be nuttier than others.






#36
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@zedvictor4
I think religion is the inspired mainly by the need for answers explanations and to find things out and god or gods provided an acceptable explanation for many things, it should have been superseded by science but it hasn’t.

 There is also the question as to the purpose of life and our existence, the answer that there isn’t any, is something some people can’t accept. Religion seems to fulfil that purpose.

 Then there is death, non-existence is something many see as an unpleasant even frightening prospect, so an afterlife in some happyland is a big incentive to believe in a god or gods that offer this alternative.

#37
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Elliott
Yep, I agree.

Ignorance basically,

As in not knowing.

So we made stuff up because we could.

Stuff that wasn't particularly logical.

And some kids still get taught this stuff.

Even though we know far more now than we ever did.

And even though no one has ever met a GOD and taken a selfie with it.

And if we continue to teach kids old illogical stuff,

They will continue to grow up believing in old illogical stuff,

And teaching it to their kids.

And some will inevitably do silly things.
Topic's author
#38
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott

It appears to be as I had suggested.

Those School boys were suspended (probably for their own protection) because they had somehow offended Islam by scuffing a book all about total submission to Allah.#13

Police speak to child about death threats after Quran damaged at Wakefield school.

Minister for Schools Nick Gibb said his department was working with the school.
He said: "My first priority is always the wellbeing of children and young people.
"The death threats reportedly issued against the pupils are totally unacceptable.
"There is no blasphemy law in this country and schools should be promoting the fundamental British values of the respect for rule of law, individual liberty and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs."

She continued: 'He is beside himself. He's very, very sorry.
'He has received death threats, he has received threats that he will be beaten up if he goes back to school. He's absolutely petrified.'


"One local councillor, Usman Ali, took to social media to describe the so-called desecration as "serious provocative action which needs to be dealt with urgently by all the authorities, namely, the police, the school and the local authority."
Meetings were hastily arranged, and local Muslims were summoned to the mosque, where the boy's mother was paraded, pleading for forgiveness. West Yorkshire Police were also in attendance. Chief Superintendent Andy Thornton explained that a hate incident had been recorded, but to his credit, added that to call what happened criminal was wrong and that it should be an educational opportunit".


Shariah by the backdoor I call it. They had this petrified autistic 10 year old boy's mother sitting in a mosque - head covered of course- pleading her son's case. Just who the fk do these tosser's think they are. 
And it turns out that it was the local Muslim councillor for the "Muslim community" that was stirring all the shite. 

The weak kneed apologetic headmaster of that school who bowed to these "allegations of "desecration"  cried ' it is a very sad day',   should have been fired. It was a fkn book ffs!
It should have all ended when the same apologetic headmaster admitted 'there was no malicious intent'.
#39
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@Stephen
From the BBC  "A suspect was identified, who was also a child, and they were given words of advice by an officer." So not hordes of radical Islamists out to get him. 

Then we have the “Daily Mail.” A comic for right-wing morons, so I will disregard that one. 

And next we have the National Secular Society, and one local councillor,  Usman Ali who is having a bit of a rant to try and exploit the situation. 

There are plenty of examples of radical Islam, there are authoritarian theocracies, the Taliban and the Islamic State etc, without people, mainly the media making mountains out of molehills. 

Maybe that councillor should be suspended though.
Topic's author
#40
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott
From the BBC  "A suspect was identified, who was also a child, and they were given words of advice by an officer." So not hordes of radical Islamists out to get him. Then we have the “Daily Mail.” A comic for right-wing morons, so I will disregard that one. 

And next we have the National Secular Society, and one local councillor,  Usman Ali who is having a bit of a rant to try and exploit the situation. 

There are plenty of examples of radical Islam, there are authoritarian theocracies, the Taliban and the Islamic State etc, without people, mainly the media making mountains out of molehills

Elliot, stop being a total idiot. Are you disputing the facts because of the source/s or because like in your own religious topics, you simply cannot face the facts?
Most outlets are clearly stating "death threats"  plural! and threats of violence  " if he returns to school" They aren't coming from "right wing" sources  or the mother/s of the children, are they!? No. they are coming from the "Muslim Community".



without people, mainly the media making mountains out of molehills

Yes. That will be the cowardly headmaster, the interfering police and the shit-stirring Muslim councillor. Because it certainly wasn't the mother of the ten year old autistic child , WAS IT, ffs!
. 


Maybe that councillor should be suspended though.

I agree. Along with the headteacher that believed "it was a sad day" that a fkn book got scuffed.


And you ignored this too; Answer the question!

I totally agree that Muslims should be encouraged to integrate but the hostility towards Muslims, the anti-Muslim rhetoric and attacking their holy book is not really conducive to this and as I said previously it creates a vicious circle .#24

Encouraged by whom?

Does this report released just days ago show any intention of encouragement to integrate, Elliot?

Didsbury Mosque 'turned a blind eye' to Islamist extremism before the Manchester Arena terror attack

A former Didsbury Mosque imam has told the Manchester Arena Inquiry support for terror groups was preached there.





#41
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Elliot, stop being a total idiot

Please don’t waste your time trying to insult me; your opinion of me is irrelevant.

 As to not facing the facts, the fact that I face and my main contention and it isn’t that I have a fondness for Islam, it is as I have said previously that all this anti-Islam rhetoric can only help promote a vicious circle of hate that can only encourage further radicalisation.

Topic's author
#42
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott
Elliot, stop being a total idiot

Please don’t waste your time trying to insult me; your opinion of me is irrelevant.

I agree. Then grow a thicker skin.

 As to not facing the facts, the fact that I face and my main contention and it isn’t that I have a fondness for Islam, it is as I have said previously that all this anti-Islam rhetoric can only help promote a vicious circle of hate that can only encourage further radicalisation.

You have missed this twice now:

Elliott wrote: I totally agree that Muslims should be encouraged to integrate but the hostility towards Muslims, the anti-Muslim rhetoric and attacking their holy book is not really conducive to this and as I said previously it creates a vicious circle .#24

Encouraged by whom? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Does this report released just days ago show any intention of encouragement to integrate, Elliot?

Didsbury Mosque 'turned a blind eye' to Islamist extremism before the Manchester Arena terror attack

A former Didsbury Mosque imam has told the Manchester Arena Inquiry support for terror groups was preached there.

#43
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
I agree. Then grow a thicker skin.
Not sure why I would need a thicker skin against irrelevancies, that really make no sense at all.

Encouraged by whom?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Government policies, local communities, the media and from within the Muslim community itself. The first step would to stop vilifying all Muslims and attacking their faith, integration works two ways.

 I don’t know if you have Islamic schools in the US but one thing we need here in the UK is totally secular education. 

As to the Didsbury Mosque, here is a comment from the chair of trustees at that mosque. So perhaps they are not all radicals.
Topic's author
#44
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott
Elliott wrote: I totally agree that Muslims should be encouraged to integrate but the hostility towards Muslims, the anti-Muslim rhetoric and attacking their holy book is not really conducive to this and as I said previously it creates a vicious circle .#24


Encouraged by whom?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Government policies, local communities, the media and from within the Muslim community itself. The first step would to stop vilifying all Muslims and attacking their faith, integration works two ways.

What would be the goals?  And I do hope you are not  accuse me of vilifying "all Muslims".



 I don’t know if you have Islamic schools in the US but .... 

I am English. I live in England.



one thing we need here in the UK is totally secular education.

What about what the Muslims want?




As to the Didsbury Mosque, here is a comment from the chair of trustees at that mosque. So perhaps they are not all radicals.

  Interesting headline in that link of yours.
"Mosque would have done anything' to prevent Manchester Arena attack".

"anything" Really!?
Well that certainly doesn't square with the former Imam of the same mosque that told the Manchester Arena Bombing inquiry that "support for terror groups was preached in that Mosque". 


>.  A former Didsbury Mosque imam has told the Manchester Arena Inquiry support for terror groups was preached there. Not to mention "turned a blind eye to extremism"


And I can tell you, suicide bomber Salman Abedi wasn't the only muslim/islamist terrorist to attend that same mosque.
And after that bombing that same mosque held an "open day".  take 2 minutes to listen to what this non Muslim attendee had to say about it.





#45
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@Stephen
What would be the goals?
Create a more harmonious relationship within society and reduce the inclination propensity towards Islamophobia, which should mean “fear of Muslims,” the hate comes later, and to reduce the possibility of more Muslims being drawn into radicalisation.

And I do hope you are not  accuse me of vilifying "all Muslims".
And “no,” I try to avoid personal attacks when debating and concentrate on the actual arguments.

What about what the Muslims want?
They probably wouldn’t like it, but then neither would the Catholics or CofE schools. Slightly off topic but I would also like to see the removal of all private schools.  





Topic's author
#46
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott

Elliott wrote: one thing we need here in the UK is totally secular education.

What about what the Muslims want?


They probably wouldn’t like it,
I am sure they wouldn't like it.
So how would you go about implementing "total" secularist education on Muslims that refuse to accept it ?



 


#47
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@Stephen
So how would you go about implementing "total" secularist education on Muslims that refuse to accept it ?
By the fact that it is secular there is nothing to impose.
Topic's author
#48
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott
So how would you go about implementing "total" secularist education on Muslims that refuse to accept it ?
By the fact that it is secular there is nothing to impose.

So you would abolish Islamic  Madrasa's - Faith Schools?
  I remember in around 2015 there were around 2,000 Madrassa's - Faith Schools in the UK with between 350-500 children being instructed in  Islamic Shariah .
And  I think I remember that after a damming under cover documentary  (it may have been Dispatches called Lessons in Hatred and Violence?) exposing that children as young as 5 being taught to hate the west ,the unbeliever, Indians and Jews, that government plans to "regulate" these schools didn't go down too well, although the  documentary did lead to one or two of the 2,000 being closed.

This may have been it.



#49
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@Stephen
So you would abolish Islamic  Madrasa's - Faith Schools?
  I remember in around 2015 there were around 2,000 Madrassa's - Faith Schools in the UK with between 350-500 children being instructed in  Islamic Shariah .
And  I think I remember that after a damming under cover documentary  (it may have been Dispatches called Lessons in Hatred and Violence?) exposing that children as young as 5 being taught to hate the west ,the unbeliever, Indians and Jews, that government plans to "regulate" these schools didn't go down too well, although the  documentary did lead to one or two of the 2,000 being closed.

This may have been it.

Thanks, that is interesting. The Dispatches documentary mentioned in the article appears not to be available on Channel 4 but I managed to track it down online, it is pretty appalling stuff. Apparently the headmaster was jailed, he got 10 weeks, it should have been 10 years.

Topic's author
#50
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott
So how would you go about implementing "total" secularist education on Muslims that refuse to accept it ?
By the fact that it is secular there is nothing to impose.
" we will reap the whirlwind"


So you would abolish Islamic  Madrasa's - Faith Schools?

#51
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
So you would abolish Islamic  Madrasa's - Faith Schools?
I would like to see all faith schools abolished, religion should be kept out of mainstream education, it should be reserved to the churches, mosques, synagogues etc or at home.
Topic's author
#52
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott
So you would abolish Islamic  Madrasa's - Faith Schools?
I would like to see all faith schools abolished.

So would I. But how would you go about it?

Have you ever heard this BBC pinup boy, Medhi Hasan? Has was the "go _ to" Muslim when ever the issue of Islam /Muslims hit the head lines. he is always referred to as a ' moderate Muslim'.  I think it was Dr David Starkey that put him back in his box and exposed him for what he really is on BBC's Question Time. I believe Hasan works for Al-Jazeera now?

On non Muslims living like animals





#53
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@Stephen
So would I. But how would you go about it?

Have you ever heard this BBC pinup boy, Medhi Hasan? Has was the "go _ to" Muslim when ever the issue of Islam /Muslims hit the head lines. he is always referred to as a ' moderate Muslim'.  I think it was Dr David Starkey that put him back in his box and exposed him for what he really is on BBC's Question Time. I believe Hasan works for Al-Jazeera now?

On non Muslims living like animals

Firstly there should be a policy that insures all schools are inclusive and open to students of all faiths. Getting children from different beliefs, faiths and ethnic backgrounds to mix would go a long way to encouraging integration. Then introduce a secular national curriculum where religion is only taught within the context of history.

 Regarding the video and Medhi Hasan, we all know these extremists exist, they are a menace and they are the ones that get all the media attention. The majority of Muslims in this country who simply get on with their lives and cause no problems are not newsworthy.
Topic's author
#54
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Elliott
Elliott wrote: I would like to see all faith schools abolished.

So would I. But how would you go about it?
Firstly there should be a policy that insures all schools are inclusive and open to students of all faiths. Getting children from different beliefs, faiths and ethnic backgrounds to mix would go a long way to encouraging integration.

But isn't it obvious to you that you would have to do this forcefully by law. And probably against the will of the larger UK Muslim population?


Then introduce a secular national curriculum where religion is only taught within the context of history.

 That would be more difficult in my opinion without mentioning that this "history" would be about religion. And you would still have the problem of what the Muslim version of their history is and how they wish it to be taught. Their "history" is , Islam.


Stephen wrote: Have you ever heard this BBC pinup boy, Medhi Hasan? Has was the "go _ to" Muslim when ever the issue of Islam /Muslims hit the head lines. he is always referred to as a ' moderate Muslim'.  I think it was Dr David Starkey that put him back in his box and exposed him for what he really is on BBC's Question Time. I believe Hasan works for Al-Jazeera now?

On non Muslims living like animals

Elliott wrote: Regarding the video and Medhi Hasan, we all know these extremists exist, they are a menace and they are the ones that get all the media attention.
But my point is that in the case of the likes of  Mehdi Hasan, he is regarded as a respectful "moderate Muslim" by media and government alike. Or was until Historian Dr David Starkey exposed him for what he is.
I don't know if you watched the Question time exchange he had with Dr Starkey but the usual suspects - Anna Soubry being one -  tried to close Starkey down.

 There is another "respectable moderate Muslim" know to us named Maajid Nawaz. He is a self confessed "radical" terrorist recruiter for the Islamic terror group Hizb ut-Tahrir . He served 5 years in an Egyptian prison for "terrorist related" crimes. His lawyer just happened to be London Mayor Sadiq Khan. Not long after his release Maajid Nawaz was rewarded with a lucrative position as a radio presenter for LBC radio. My point is that there are many "respectful moderate Muslims"  that have secured themselves very high positions in British society, and I personally find that concerning.

The majority of Muslims in this country who simply get on with their lives and cause no problems are not newsworthy.

They are. But when polled on certain issues it was found that the majority agreed that our country should be ruled by Sharia. And agreed with terrorist extremists, which is something else I find concerning.

This is Maajid Nawaz admitting (bragging) to the Oxford Union to being a terrorist recruiter. Something he now attempts to deny when ever his own claims are brought up. In the same speech he attempts to make himself out to be a victim!

Listen to the first 3-4 minutes of  his Oxford union address.