Why I don’t support vaccine mandates

Author: TheUnderdog

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#1
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If you fired every unvaccinated person from their job, the unemployment rate would skyrocket.  It’s not worth raising the unemployment rate to 8% from 3% over a vaccine mandate.  I don’t want to pay for the unvaccinated people’s welfare.

I don’t think a company should be allowed to fire you for ANY of the following reasons:
1) Your unvaccinated
2) Your LGBT
3) You post politically incorrect things on the internet (or if your super woke; I don’t want AOC supporters fired from their jobs).
4) You are undocumented.
5) Your race, religion, or gender

We need to make it easier to get jobs to minimize the welfare state.
#2
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@TheUnderdog
A company has the prerogative, and should maintain its capacity without retaliation from the State to fire anyone it wants for any reason it deems fit. As much as I oppose "vaccine mandates"--more to the point, the gross exaggeration of the necessity of vaccines--should a company decide, collectively or by proxy, that it does not want to associate with anyone who's unvaccinated, then said company may proceed with its decision regardless of the opinions of unsolicited--hell, irrelevant--third parties. The same goes even if the subject is about so-called "race," sexuality, sex, religion, citizenship, etc.
#3
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@TheUnderdog
If you fired every unvaccinated person from their job, the unemployment rate would skyrocket.  It’s not worth raising the unemployment rate to 8% from 3% over a vaccine mandate.  I don’t want to pay for the unvaccinated people’s welfare.

I don’t think a company should be allowed to fire you for ANY of the following reasons:
1) Your unvaccinated
2) Your LGBT
3) You post politically incorrect things on the internet (or if your super woke; I don’t want AOC supporters fired from their jobs).
4) You are undocumented.
5) Your race, religion, or gender

We need to make it easier to get jobs to minimize the welfare state.
I agree with most of this
You shouldn't be fired for:
1.) Being unvaccinated.
2.) Being Gay/Lesbian, or Trans.
3.) Being politically incorrect.
4.) Your race, religion, or gender.

But when it comes to documentation, I belive at the minimum, every American citizen must have documentation, to prove they are American citizens. If anyone who is living in America is not an American citizen, then they shouldn't be living in America, because if you live in America you are an American citizen, therefore you must have documentation proving you are an American citizen. Visitation is different. 


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#4
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@Athias
If someone gets denied a job for any of the characteristics you support the right to fire someone for, you have to pay for their welfare. We should make it as easy as possible for people to get jobs to minimize the welfare state.

If a company wants to force their unvaccinated employees to test or wear masks, that’s fine.  But don’t fire them.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Glad we agree on most of the points.

But when it comes to documentation, I belive at the minimum, every American citizen must have documentation, to prove they are American citizens.
What’s the point of FORCING people to be documented?  Elon Musk was undocumented for the longest time, and if he wasn’t deported, he would never be able to buy Twitter and protect ma FREE SPEECH from the socialists that previously ran Twitter.

If anyone who is living in America is not an American citizen, then they shouldn't be living in America, because if you live in America you are an American citizen, therefore you must have documentation proving you are an American citizen.
What’s the point of excluding the undocumented?  The unborn don’t have American citizenship either, but I wouldn’t kick them out of the country over it (or abort them either).
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@TheUnderdog
If someone gets denied a job for any of the characteristics you support the right to fire someone for, you have to pay for their welfare.
You don't choose how your taxes are doled out anyway.

We should make it as easy as possible for people to get jobs to minimize the welfare state.
If it's at the expense of the company's prerogative, isn't that a form of welfare?

If a company wants to force their unvaccinated employees to test or wear masks, that’s fine.  But don’t fire them.
Employment like anything else is an association. And both parties are free to associate or disassociate as they please. And I always use this analogy to demonstrate the inconsistency in the reasoning of those who claim that the right to freely associate should be modified or qualified by sex, so-called race, sexuality, religion etc. Here it is:

If I had made an earlier decision to hire a babysitter for my children, and I then decided to fire said babysitter because he/she was unvaccinated, should the State interfere with my decision and compel me to associate with and pay a person with whom I no longer intend to associate? If the answer is no, then what is the difference between a company and me? Would the logic change if this were about so-called race, sex, sexuality, religion etc.?
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@YouFound_Lxam
3.) Being politically incorrect.
You both posted something along these lines, and I'm curious, because this "politically incorrect" fear is a little nebulous. Like let's say I'm at my job and I call a colleague a racial slur, should I be able to be fired? Presume I work for a private company. I guess I'm curious as to where you mean the line is between politically correct vs. incorrect, and how such a criteria could ever be written in a sensible way in an employment agreement. What's something you think is politically incorrect that might get you fired?
#8
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@TheUnderdog
What’s the point of FORCING people to be documented?  Elon Musk was undocumented for the longest time, and if he wasn’t deported, he would never be able to buy Twitter and protect ma FREE SPEECH from the socialists that previously ran Twitter.
I won't defend Elon Musk. He should of been documented. Now he is.
We can't change the past. I don't see how this is a point.

What’s the point of excluding the undocumented?  The unborn don’t have American citizenship either, but I wouldn’t kick them out of the country over it (or abort them either).
Well if the mother is documented, then you can't because the baby is in the mother. So to kick the baby out, you would have to kick the mother out.
The unborn have nothing to do with this.
If you are born in America, you are an American citizen. 
But being an American citizen doesn't give you value.
You have value from conception. 

See the dilemma here?
#9
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@ludofl3x
You both posted something along these lines, and I'm curious, because this "politically incorrect" fear is a little nebulous. Like let's say I'm at my job and I call a colleague a racial slur, should I be able to be fired?
Saying a racial slur is not being politically incorrect, it is just being plain rude. It would cause disruption to your work and probably annoy your boss, all because you decided to say something rude and racist. 
In the end, those type of decisions should be made by the boss. 
Also this is why we have HR.

 Presume I work for a private company. I guess I'm curious as to where you mean the line is between politically correct vs. incorrect, and how such a criteria could ever be written in a sensible way in an employment agreement. What's something you think is politically incorrect that might get you fired?
We are not saying people should be fired if they are politically incorrect. We said people should not be fired if they are politically incorrect.

If you look it up, a lot of cases of actors, music makers, and employees are fired or "let go" for being politically incorrect to one political party. 
#10
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@YouFound_Lxam
If you look it up, a lot of cases of actors, music makers, and employees are fired or "let go" for being politically incorrect to one political party. 
Can you name some? Having a negative affect on a business's bottom line or damaging a brand is generally a very fireable offense. You seem to have a number of cases already in mind. 
#11
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@ludofl3x
Look up:
Alex Kompothecras
Jessica Mulroney
Peter Hunziker
Craig Gore
Hartley Sawyer
Adam Rapoport
Taylor Selfridge
Etc. 

All actors and celebrities who were fired for being politically incorrect. 
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#12
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@ludofl3x
because this "politically incorrect" fear is a little nebulous. Like let's say I'm at my job and I call a colleague a racial slur, should I be able to be fired? 
Let’s say hypothetically you get fired for saying the N word to your colleague.  What place is going to hire you?  No place would hire you.  Then taxpayers have to pay for your welfare for the rest of their life.  I as a taxpayer don’t want to do that.

What's something you think is politically incorrect that might get you fired?
If I post something pro life on the internet and my female boss has had an abortion and is super left wing, so she fires me over what I posted.  Nobody should get fired for being pro life or pro choice.
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#13
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@YouFound_Lxam
I won't defend Elon Musk. He should of been documented. Now he is.
We can't change the past. I don't see how this is a point.
When he was undocumented, would you have deported him?  If the answer is yes, he would have never been able to buy Twitter and protect free speech.

You didn’t answer the question: What is the point of kicking out undocumented immigrants?  Your claim with the unborn baby sort of makes sense, but you would either have to deport a citizen or keep a non citizen here with pregnancy.
#14
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@TheUnderdog
When he was undocumented, would you have deported him?  If the answer is yes, he would have never been able to buy Twitter and protect free speech.
If  I had that authority then I would.

It doesn't matter about buying Twitter.
I think that it was a great thing that he bought Twitter, but I still would have deported him, because he didn't have American documentation.
He was a non-American citizen living in America. 

You didn’t answer the question: What is the point of kicking out undocumented immigrants?
It's pretty simple, and yes I did answer.

If you want to live in the USA, you have to be a citizen of the USA. And in order to be a citizen of the USA, you have to have U.S. documentation. 

If we didn't have documentation for immigrants, and people who don't have citizenship, then why not just have open borders?

#15
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I've never heard of any of those people, so I'll do some cursory research:

Kompothecras was fired by MTV for making racist and white supremacist comments on social media. MTV is a private company with a brand to protect and he's an independent contractor. What exactly is the objection? MTV isn't in violation of their contract. 

Mulroney looks like someone who knows Megan Markle, I have no idea what happened to her, so I'll wait for your explanation. 

Peter Hunziker I actually knew because I admit to watching this show. Bravo is a private company with a brand to protect, he made racist posts on social media and was not fired, he actually worked the whole season, they just edited him out and didn't bring him back. Again, what's the objection? They should HAVE to bring him back?

Craig Gore returns too many people to sift through. 

Hartley Sawyer made misogynist posts and got fired by a private company who clearly didn't think he was good for their brand. 

Adam Rapoport resigned after apparently doing blackface in 2004. He resigned. That's his choice. 

Taylor Selfridge has the same history as the first guy.

So what we have here are a bunch of people making posts on social media that their private company employers found them potentially damaging to the brand. 

I don't think you can make private companies continue to pay those who are potentially harmful to their market. What is the solution you propose? It's not like these people are cast out of society and homeless, after all, and there's no divine right to continue to get paid to be on television. 
#16
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@TheUnderdog
What's something you think is politically incorrect that might get you fired?
If I post something pro life on the internet and my female boss has had an abortion and is super left wing, so she fires me over what I posted.  Nobody should get fired for being pro life or pro choice.
I agree with this. Is there an example of such a thing happening? I don't think anyone would qualify pro choice or pro life as politically incorrect, though. Still, a private company has the right to fire you and not hire you back over it, I'm sorry, that's just the land of the free.

because this "politically incorrect" fear is a little nebulous. Like let's say I'm at my job and I call a colleague a racial slur, should I be able to be fired? 
Let’s say hypothetically you get fired for saying the N word to your colleague.  What place is going to hire you?  No place would hire you.  Then taxpayers have to pay for your welfare for the rest of their life.  I as a taxpayer don’t want to do that.
I have worked with two people fired for saying the N word. Both have jobs today. I don't think this is a real problem. 

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@YouFound_Lxam
If you want to live in the USA, you have to be a citizen of the USA. And in order to be a citizen of the USA, you have to have U.S. documentation. 

If we didn't have documentation for immigrants, and people who don't have citizenship, then why not just have open borders?
Why should one need to be a citizen to live in the USA?  I don’t see the point in forcing people to pay thousands of dollars just for the government to leave you alone.  The immigrant tax is a tax and both this tax and the income tax are theft.

I don’t see the issue with open borders for the households that want it.  If you don’t know anyone that’s undocumented, you wouldn’t want them in your house; that’s fine.  But if you have a parent that’s undocumented and don’t want to be raised by a single mother (family values), you are going to want your undocumented father in the house.

My rule is I only let rent payers in my house once I become a landlord.  It doesn’t matter their documentation status.

One way to reduce the single motherhood rate is to not separate undocumented families.  Some people say Black Lives Matter.  Some people say All lives matter or black fathers matter.  I would say All Fathers matter.
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@ludofl3x
Is there an example of such a thing happening? I don't think anyone would qualify pro choice or pro life as politically incorrect, though.
People would classify being pro life as being worthy of being fired.

Still, a private company has the right to fire you and not hire you back over it, I'm sorry, that's just the land of the free.
Freedom for corporations, but not freedom for we the people.

I have worked with two people fired for saying the N word. Both have jobs today. I don't think this is a real problem.
How do you know if they have jobs today?  Who is going to hire an adult white person if they said the N word while an adult?
#19
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@TheUnderdog
People would classify being pro life as being worthy of being fired.
Are those people owners of private companies that pay you? Do they not have the same right to their opinion as a pro-lifer? And again, I'm not sure this has ever actually happened, nor am I sure it falls under the "politically incorrect" umbrella (which to me means saying things like "black" instead of african american). 

Still, a private company has the right to fire you and not hire you back over it, I'm sorry, that's just the land of the free.
Freedom for corporations, but not freedom for we the people.
What freedom of yours do you think this infringes upon? 

I have worked with two people fired for saying the N word. Both have jobs today. I don't think this is a real problem.
How do you know if they have jobs today?  Who is going to hire an adult white person if they said the N word while an adult?
LinkedIn is how I know. And if companies didn't hire anyone who said the N word while an adult, the unemployment rate would be a LOT higher than it is. I mean unless you put it on your resume, companies can't know. Unless, of course, you post it all over your social media. 
#20
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@TheUnderdog
Why should one need to be a citizen to live in the USA? 
Really........

In order to be part of a group, that group has to accept you first.

Many reasons, for legal reasons, safety reasons, and health reasons. 

I don’t see the issue with open borders for the households that want it.  If you don’t know anyone that’s undocumented, you wouldn’t want them in your house; that’s fine.  But if you have a parent that’s undocumented and don’t want to be raised by a single mother (family values), you are going to want your undocumented father in the house.
Houses can be broken into, and houses are not countries. 
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#21
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@ludofl3x
Do they not have the same right to their opinion as a pro-lifer?
They can be pro choice; they shouldn’t be allowed to fire someone for being pro life.

I'm not sure this has ever actually happened, nor am I sure it falls under the "politically incorrect" umbrella (which to me means saying things like "black" instead of african american).
Black and African American are interchangeable from my experience.

I mean unless you put it on your resume, companies can't know. Unless, of course, you post it all over your social media.
I haven’t said the N word on the internet to the best of my knowledge, but Ive said things on the internet that companies probably discriminate against me for.  Things like my political views on issues where huge numbers of people disagree.
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#22
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@YouFound_Lxam
Really........

In order to be part of a group, that group has to accept you first.

Many reasons, for legal reasons, safety reasons, and health reasons. 
When that group is a group of friends, that’s true.  When that group of people is an entire country, I don’t see the point in excluding anyone.

Can you be specific with the legal reasons, safety reasons, and health reasons?

Houses can be broken into, and houses are not countries.
The vast majority of the undocumented don’t break into houses where they are not welcome.  But if they break into an owner’s home without his consent, the owner should get a shotgun and protect his property.
#23
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@TheUnderdog
They can be pro choice; they shouldn’t be allowed to fire someone for being pro life.
Broadly I agree, from a principle perspective, but if a company's management thinks you're damaging their ability to make money, they can and absolutely should fire you. It's probably best not to talk about your pro choice or pro life stance at your place of business, I would think. You can be pro life, but if you work in a deli and wear a shirt that says something like "ABORTION IS MURDER," you're going to get fired. Same if you worked someplace and wore a shirt that said "HANDS OFF MY PUSSY." Everyone's entitled to their positions, but you're not entitled to force a private corporation to pay you when you are damaging their brand. 

Things like my political views on issues where huge numbers of people disagree.
Do you get discriminated against based on this today? Are you having trouble finding a job? Have you never heard the maxim to not talk about sex, religion or politics at work? The reason isn't the subject matter itself, it's the human reactions to these discussions. 
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#24
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@ludofl3x
but if a company's management thinks you're damaging their ability to make money, they can and absolutely should fire you.
True, but just being pro life or pro choice (if you post politics in your spare time) shouldn’t get you fired.  Opinions (unless your wearing them) don’t make the company unprofitable.  I don’t talk politics with customers, even if they pressure me.

Do you get discriminated against based on this today?
I don’t, but I’m worried it might happen in the future, even if I don’t mention my views at work.  Companies are turning me down for internships despite my 3.2 GPA.

I don’t think I would have even become political if it weren’t for Trump running.  I’m been addicted to politics since then.
#25
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@TheUnderdog
Opinions (unless your wearing them) don’t make the company unprofitable. 
In and of themselves, they don't. But the minute you're recognized for posting the N word on your Twitter feed, then you've created a potential problem for the business, and the fastest solution is to fire you. Again you're 100% welcome to your opinions, but everyone has to be responsible for what the world can see of them. No one, after all, FORCED someone to say dumb things on the internet that lasts forever. 

I don’t, but I’m worried it might happen in the future, even if I don’t mention my views at work.  Companies are turning me down for internships despite my 3.2 GPA.
Ok, so this isn't a current issue, but it's something you're concerned about. I'd just post whatever controversial views you have as a different name with no photo, and keep the political, religious or sex discussions at work at a zero. 
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@Athias
I got a text yesterday from my healthcare provider saying if I come in for a "free" Covid vaccine, I would get a 75 dollar gift card.

What is your reaction to that scenario?
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#27
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@ludofl3x
But the minute you're recognized for posting the N word on your Twitter feed, then you've created a potential problem for the business, and the fastest solution is to fire you. 
I think this would ONLY be a problem if:

1) Millions of people saw me using the N word
2) Millions of people know I work for this company.

The number of people that will ever view this comment is less than 1 million.  Same is true for over 99% of comments.




#28
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@TheUnderdog
1) Your unvaccinated
Depends on what the vaccinations are for.  If we have a pandemic where a contagion kills one out of every 10 people, many will be pushing others --if not trampling o on them---   out of the way to  get vaccinated.

All vaccinations have to be considered withing context of severity to general public.
#29
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@TheUnderdog
When that group is a group of friends, that’s true.  When that group of people is an entire country, I don’t see the point in excluding anyone.

Can you be specific with the legal reasons, safety reasons, and health reasons?
Legal reasons:
Right to vote
Investigation of homicides
Law enforcement identification

Health Reasons:
Doctors and medical workers won't be able to access your medical history if you don't have any identification in this country. 

Safety reasons:
Law enforcement need to identify people. 
That's pretty self-explanatory.

The point in excluding people, is because terrorists and bad people exist. Also, drug empires as well. You need to take precaution in order to keep people safe from these types of things, therefore you need identification.  

The vast majority of the undocumented don’t break into houses where they are not welcome.  But if they break into an owner’s home without his consent, the owner should get a shotgun and protect his property.
Yes, but again people aren't always nice. 
A person should use a shotgun to protect their property, but precautions should be in place in order for a homeowner to not have to do that. 
It's the last line of defense. Not the first line. 



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#30
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@YouFound_Lxam
Legal reasons:
Right to vote
Investigation of homicides
Law enforcement identification
You can live in the country without having the right to vote.  If an undocumented immigrant murders, they deserve something a lot tougher than deportation (they deserve their heads cut off).  But given the vast majority of undocumented immigrants don’t murder, this is not a realistic assessment.  Law enforcement uses DNA and cameras, if ANYONE commits a victim producing crime in America, law enforcement finds out and there is prosecution.

Health Reasons:
Doctors and medical workers won't be able to access your medical history if you don't have any identification in this country.
You can have health DNA on file and still not be documented with the federal government.  This doesn’t justify deportation.

Also, drug empires as well.
You obviously don’t want fetonal in the country, but the solution is to replace ICE with FCE (Fetonal Control and Enforcement).  Their job is to go after fetanyl dealers while leaving the undocumented that have nothing to do with fetonal (the majority) alone.

Yes, but again people aren't always nice.
A person should use a shotgun to protect their property, but precautions should be in place in order for a homeowner to not have to do that.
It's the last line of defense. Not the first line.
I don’t think you have to worry about the undocumented breaking into people’s homes on a large scale.  Otherwise border counties would lean red.  But they are some of the bluest rural counties in the country.  This is often because they expierienced the undocumented first hand and they can confirm the undocumented aren’t a threat.