Floyd and the fatal effects of fentanyl when mixed with other illegal substances

Author: TWS1405_2
george floyd
fentanyl
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This thread is being created to challenge @Mps1213 (and anyone else likeminded) on the subject of George Floyd’s death, specifically the illicit drugs he consumed prior to the initial contact with police and the excited delirium that followed during his apprehension that lead to his cardiac arrest and respiratory failure. Two common results of an overdose when one is “speedballing.” In other words, when one is taking/consuming a strong stimulant like meth that staves off the effects of depressants like fentanyl and amphetamines, when the stimulant(s) wears off, fatality more often than not occurs (unless medical intervention is immediate upon noticing the symptoms of an overdose). As in the case of Mr. George Floyd. An individual addicted to illicit drugs like fentanyl, amphetamines, morphine, marijuana and methamphetamines.  

However, pseudo know-it-alls like Mps1213 believe Floyd did not die from what they would consider as a “recreational drug,” but rather from the neck compression (despite the coroner clearly reporting absolutely “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified.” In comments in another formal debate, Mps1213 basically, for a lack of better terms, mouthed off that he knows better than Sir.Lancelot, myself and anyone else on this subject of Floyd’s death who dares say otherwise. So, this forum thread is being created to challenge him on this very subject, and to allow anyone else so interested and inclined to join the debate/discussion, pro or con, may do so. This shall (or rather should/could) provide a learning experience for all involved.  So without further adieu…

On May 26, 2020, at 9:25am, just 12 hours after Floyd’s pronounced death, the coroner completed the autopsy of George Floyd. 

 “As was released earlier by the medical examiner’s office, Floyd’s cause of death is listed officially as “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”  The full autopsy report states further that “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified.”  The medical examiner’s office had also previously deemed the manner of Floyd’s death a “homicide.” 

The report describes Floyd as a “46-year-old man who became unresponsive while being restrained by law enforcement officers; he received emergency medical care in the field and subsequently in the Hennepin HealthCare (HHC) Emergency Department, but could not be resuscitated.” https://lawandcrime.com/live-trials/live-trials-current/george-floyd-death/authorities-just-released-george-floyds-complete-autopsy-report-read-it-here/
The above quotes are not only poorly written grammatically and contextually, but they are also self-contradictory. Then there is this:

“Critically, the report says Floyd “experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained by law enforcement officer(s).”
Having provided those two quotes (and sources) to describe the coroners official findings of the manner in which George Floyd died, what I implore upon anyone and everyone reading this thread is the fact that you each have to look at the data and circumstances OBJECTIVELY, not subjectively driven by emotion or otherwise. Nor any absurd appeals to authority either. The people with letters after their name all perjured themselves on the stand regarding the subject matter being discussed herein.

To clarify my position on the stated manner of death:

“cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression” 
The wording of this statement, contextually, directly implies that Floyd’s experiencing a heart attack – in the moment (i.e., excited delirium) – complicated the subdued, restrain, and neck compression” executed by law enforcement. When I read this from a law enforcement  perspective, this tells me that while all the officers involved, especially Chauvin, were doing exactly what they were trained to do in order to calm Floyd down and subdue him without increasing the use of force continuum…Floyd’s heart attack “complicated” that effort that required EMS to be called vs routine transport to the county jail for booking. 

Yet people like Mps1213, BLM (Burn Loot Murder aka Black Lives Matter), and the leftist propaganda machine (MSM) would have everyone believe that Chauvin either broke or compressed his neck so much that it caused damage to his larynx and caused asphyxiation. That couldn’t be further from the truth. As the coroner clearly noted: “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified.”

Given the fact that there were “no life-threatening injuries” identified during the initial/original unbiased autopsy by the county coroner, that leaves the question: why/how did George Floyd die. Well, the next place to look is the Toxicology report: https://famous-trials.com/george-floyd/2648-george-floyd-the-toxicology-report for the (in your face) obvious answer. He died of a drug overdose brought on by a lethal concoction of fentanyl, methamphetamines, amphetamines, morphine and marijuana. Stimulants vs depressants. A deadly combination either way you slice and dice it. And when you add comorbidities like hypertension, cardiovascular disease, and a positive test for COVID-19…well, death was certain and imminent. See below:

“Underlying Conditions The report says Floyd’s autopsy revealed three “natural diseases:”  (1) “arteriosclerotic heart disease,” which it described as “multifocal, severe;” (2) “hypertensive heart disease,” which included a “clinical history of hypertension,” and (3) a left pelvic tumor, which it described as “incidental.”  (Incidental tumors are generally benign.) The report elsewhere said that a “cross sections of coronary arteries, though not all ideally oriented, confirm the gross impression of atherosclerotic narrowing.” 
Then add into that mix the toxicology findings, broken down and sectioned out here (same place the above quote was taken from): https://lawandcrime.com/live-trials/live-trials-current/george-floyd-death/authorities-just-released-george-floyds-complete-autopsy-report-read-it-here/

The obvious fact of the matter is Floyd consumed a fatal dose of fentanyl and meth in what is commonly known as “speedballing.” https://www.training.fadaa.org/Speedballing/Speedballing_PPT.pdf

The lethal dose of fentanyl is 2mg (but can be less); Floyd had 11ng/mL in his blood as reported in the toxicology report. But when combined with all the other stimulants and depressants he willingly consumed that day, Floyd was “dead man walking.” Which perfectly explains why he can be heard on body-cam footage upon initial and immediately following contact by police (long before the infamous knee) telling them he was having trouble breathing. Respiratory distress and failure is a common result of mixing potent stimulants with deadly depressants. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/george-floyd-told-police-he-was-struggling-breathe-officer-put-n1218556 

The risks of combining fentanyl and meth is no secret. Fentanyl is not a new drug, but it is certainly more dangerous than most others, especially when combined with other drugs like methamphetamines, amphetamines, et al. https://www.ashevillerecoverycenter.com/methamphetamine-and-fentanyl/

“Deaths related to methamphetamine cut with fentanyl appear to have spiked in recent years; for instance, a 2022 report from the New York State Department of Health noted that overdose deaths involving methamphetamine notably increased in the state (outside of New York City) from 2016 to 2020, but that the majority of those deaths also involved fentanyl. This suggests that “the potent opioid [fentanyl] has actually been driving the increase.” 

Part of the reason the combination is particularly dangerous is because it combines an opioid (a depressant) with meth (a stimulant). According to the Florida Alcohol & Drug Abuse Association, the combination of an opioid and stimulant, when taken intentionally, is sometimes called “speed-balling.” 

The opposing effects of the two types of substances can mask each other, making overdose more likely. For instance, in some cases of overdose, the stimulant’s effects may wear off, and respiratory failure can result—particularly from an opioid as strong as fentanyl.” 


Taking into consideration the multitude of deaths, reported overdoses, and the scientific evidence that explains the ever increasing uptick in deaths related to fentanyl overdoses when mixed (laced) with other illicit drugs, and the fact that the coroner made it perfectly clear in his report that there was absolutely no life threatening injuries to Floyd’s body (e.g. his neck, specifically), the ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION is that he died from an overdose complicated by excited delirium during his arrest. That’s all on him and has no bearing on the officers and the manner in which they conducted their arrest per their own departments training guidelines and S.O.P.  

The ONLY reason the officers were ostracized and Chauvin was tried is it was yet another (among many) distractions the left and Democrats took advantage of (never let a tragedy go to waste) in further dividing this country and gaining or solidifying current democratic voters to continue voting for the Democratic Party. Officer Chauvin is innocent and he is nothing short of being a political prisoner in his win country for which he swore an oath to defend, and that country turned its back on him all in the name of divisive political rhetoric on faux racism and police brutality claims.  
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TWS1405_2
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@Sir.Lancelot
@Mps1213
@AustinL0926
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Tagged. You’re it. 😜 
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@Sir.Lancelot
Ok you have a basic misunderstanding of what the coroner is saying when they say no life threatening injuries. They are basically saying, he didn’t have a broken neck, didn’t have a collapsed wind pipe, etc. that doesn’t mean that having your air way inhibited, can’t kill you without causing physical injury. That’s not how it works. Have you ever seen someone get choked unconscious in MMA? If they would’ve held onto that choke, that person would’ve died, and they wouldn’t have had any life threatening injuries. They just would have been chocked to death. Which is why your idea that the original autopsy refutes itself is incorrect. 

Also “The lethal dose of fentanyl is 2mg (but can be less)” this is a perfect example of you not knowing anything about drugs man. I’m going to break this down very simply for you. The LD50 for fentanyl in rats by route of IV is a stunning 2.91mg/kg. Notice the per kilogram. It is not as simple as taking that weight and multiplying it by your body weight in kg. There is a conversion that must be done to account for different metabolic rates and the surface area of the organism. The conversion factor for rats is to divide this number by 6.2. After the conversion is done the human LD50 rests at .47mg/kg. George Floyd weighed 220 pounds. That is 99.7 Kg. 
.47x99.7 is 46.8mg. That would be the average lethal dose for someone his size. LD50 means lethal dose for 50% of test subjects, and is the standard for determining lethal doses for drugs. There are other wways, but there is a reason all safety data sheets published by drug and pharmaceutical companies have to include the LD50, because it is the most reliable. Now that LD50 will increase as the person becomes more tolerant to the drug and he was reported to have used it semi regularly. So he would’ve had a tolerance. 

Also the amount of drugs in someone blood will increase upon their death, because they likely lost blood during death, and there is no blood circulating to clean out the substance from the system. This is a well recorded and commented thing in toxicology. 
“Post-mortem changes render the assumptions of clinical pharmacology largely invalid, and make the interpretation of concentrations measured in post-mortem samples difficult or impossible. ”

That isn’t something you’re just allowed to ignore, like you did every single time I brought it up when we were arguing in the comment section of another debate. 

Also you have absolutely 0 evidence fentanyl and methamphetamine were even active in his system at the time of arrest. Drugs stay in your blood for hours, if not days. Fentanyl is only active for about 30 minutes. Do you really believe it is impossible he was claiming that he was having trouble breathing because he was being pulled over, likely panicking, and had Covid? Have you never experienced panic before? It’s hard to breathe, add Covid to that equation, it’s very hard to breathe. He knew he broke the law and was probably going to get arrested and began to have a panic attack, like anyone else would. 

I don’t understand why you feel the need to bring politics into this discussion. Was every single person on that jury brainwashed or planted there by the left? How likely is that? I don’t care what your Political orientation is, I have no political opinions. So let’s keep this to the pharmacology and science of the situation if you don’t mind. 

George Floyd had about 92 pounds of pressure on his neck. That may not kill someone if they are healthy, meaning don’t have COVID and aren’t panicking. 

You are correct that combing amphetamine stimulants and Opioids is a deadly mixture. However I have asked you for this many times, you have yet to present it. What is your evidence that those two drugs were both active in his system at the time of arrest? You realize you can take meth of Tuesday, and fentanyl on Wednesday and not face those deadly effects of mixing them correct? You can even take them both on the same day. Many people are prescribed aderall which is methamphetamine minus one carbon atom, while they’re also prescribed opioids, they just have to be taken about 6 hours apart. How do you know he didn’t do that? 

You make a lot of claims with no evidence to support them. You say some random “lethal dose” as if that applies to everyone which is patently false. And ignore basic toxicology and pharmacological science. You’ve ignored both of those points many times, but are condescending and annoying about me claiming I know more than you on those two topics, when I clearly do. In science either I am right, you are right, or we are both wrong. All of the evidence supports my claim that drugs did not kill George Floyd, you have no evidence to support your claim that they did. The evidence you cite isn’t even anywhere near factually accurate. Especially your lethal dose nonsense. The only time you get a lethal dose that low with fentanyl, is either a child took it, or someone had an allergic reaction to it, or it was mixed with other CBS depressants like benzodiazepines, alcohol, antihistamines, or other opioids. You have presented 0 evidence to support your claim. 

Be condescending all you’d like, you simply don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to toxicology and drugs, and it’s abundantly clear after doing three minutes of google searching. Search “blood concentration of drugs increase After death” look up “fentanyl LD50” and do the necessary conversions to get an accurate measurement for humans. Look up “LD50 increases with tolerance” that’s all you have to do,  to realize how incredibly wrong you are about the pharmacological and toxicological aspects of this debate. Takes three minutes man. 






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@Sir.Lancelot
@TWS1405_2
Hey didn’t mean to tag you in that, Lancelot. That was for TWS
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@TWS1405_2
Well-written.
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@Sir.Lancelot
Thank you. 

I couldn’t get past the first sentence without rolling my eyes, “oh here we go” as anticipated. So I put my phone down and played Call of Duty the rest of the night while wifey at Belly Dance class with her teammate. 

I’ll get to Mps1213 tomorrow. I’m spent. 

Until then…
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@TWS1405_2
Techno addiction not so good. (Though possibly necessary in terms of material progression)

Belly dance class good. (Though there could be associated risks to the evenings entertainment)


Substance abuse stupid.

We all know this.

But some people think what the heck.

Though self destruction is unavoidable anyway.


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Melcharaz
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why is everything so backwards? eric garner actually killed by officers = no indictment. george floyd on drugs, dies mostly if not entirely from it. = officer gets 22+ years

edit: to prevent nitpicking. eric died to the confrontation with police, his heart couldnt take it.

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@TWS1405_2
Just because you rolled your eyes doesn’t mean you are correct man. Especially on the pharmacology and toxicology front. You’re going to have a very hard time combatting anything I said when it comes to that. 
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@TWS1405_2
There are things called blood chokes: these chokes can put someone to sleep, or kill the person if they are held long enough. They have no effect in breathing at all. If someone were to die from this they would not have any “life threatening injuries” they would die from neck compression, as George Floyd did. 
Go ahead and give this article a read, maybe your eyes will stop rolling long enough to learn something. 
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@Mps1213
Okay but in bdsm you actually should go for blood chokes instead of windpipe chokes when getting rough as it is safer especially if you want the submissive to be well oxygenated to keep going shortly after for a rough session.

Blood chokes press on the sides of the neck, windpipechokes are from the front and are brutally dangerous if done wrong even short term, blood chokes only harm if done too long and harsh.
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I’m not speaking of weird sexual tendencies, you do you. 

However over 9 minutes is too long. Especially if the person has Covid. 
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@TWS1405_2
McKenzie Sadeghi
USA TODAY

The claim: The cause of George Floyd's death was a drug overdose

Following weeks of testimony in a closely watched case, a 12-member jury found former Minneapolis police Officer Derek Chauvin guilty on all counts in the death of George Floyd, a 46-year old Black man who died while being restrained by Chauvin in police custody last May. 

As Americans flooded the streets to mark the verdict, misinformation erupted on social media. 

Despite video evidence of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck for more than nine minutes, a viral social media post claims Floyd's death was the result of a drug overdose. 

"Derek Chauvin is not responsible for George Floyd's drug overdose," reads a screenshot of a tweet shared to Instagram on April 20 with more than 5,000 likes.

In the photo's caption, the user added other misleading claims such as: Floyd had COVID-19; had no injuries to his neck, muscles, esophagus trachea or brain; he went into cardiac arrest from drug overdose; and his lungs were three times normal size, "indicative of opiate overdose."

Similar versions of the claim have been shared across other platforms. One Facebook page wrote on April 20, "Science says Floyd died of an overdose & also says he wasn't suffocated."

USA TODAY reached out to the Instagram user and Facebook page for comment. The Instagram post has apparently been deleted.

Autopsy cites 'restraint and neck compression'

The Hennepin County medical examiner's office ruled Floyd's death was a homicide caused by "cardiopulmonary arrest" complicated by "restraint, and neck compression" while he was being subdued by police.

Medical Examiner Andrew Baker testified that the way officers held Floyd down and compressed his neck while restraining him "was just more than Mr. Floyd could take," given the condition of his heart. 

Similarly, an independent autopsy commissioned by Floyd's family ruled  "asphyxiation from sustained pressure was the cause" of Floyd's death.

Floyd family attorney Benjamin Crump said at a news conference in June 2020 that Dr. Michael Baden and Dr. Allecia Wilson performed the autopsy, finding there was "neck and back compression that led to a lack of blood flow to the brain." 

Dr. Martin Tobin, a pulmonologist and critical care specialist of Loyola University Medical Center, also testified during Chauvin's trial that Floyd died of a lack of oxygen from being pinned to the pavement with a knee on his neck. He added, “A healthy person subjected to what Mr. Floyd was subjected to would have died."

Tobin noted Floyd's body position – officers lifting up his handcuffed arms, Chauvin's knee on his neck, back and sides – are what led to his low oxygen levels, resulting in "low tidal volume, which gives you shallow breaths." 

Experts agree Floyd did not die of overdose

While findings from Floyd's autopsy revealed 11 nanograms per milliliter of fentanyl in his blood, medical experts called as prosecution witnesses agreed the amount of fentanyl was not enough to be considered fatal. 

Dr. Daniel Isenschmid, a forensic toxicologist at NMS Labs in Pennsylvania, testified and presented data showing the levels of methamphetamine found in Floyd's system were lower than the average amount found in 94% of DUI cases in 2020. 

Cardiologist Jonathan Rich told the court: "I can state with a high degree of medical certainty that George Floyd did not die from a primary cardiac event, and he did not die from a drug overdose."

Rich added had it not been for Chauvin's restraint, he believes Floyd would have lived.

Dr. Lindsey Thomas, an expert witness who has reviewed documents and videos in the case, echoed Tobin's testimony and noted the slow nature of Floyd's death supports the conclusion that he did not die of a fentanyl overdose. 

USA TODAY has previously debunked the claim that Floyd had enough fentanyl in his system to kill three grown men. 

Other false claims surrounding autopsy 

Aside from falsely claiming that Floyd died of a drug overdose, the Instagram post makes other inaccurate claims regarding the autopsy report.

While Floyd's autopsy showed he had been infected with the coronavirus when he died, it was not listed as a factor in his death. The medical examiner said Floyd tested positive for the virus on April 3, 2020, and he was likely asymptomatic when he died on May 25. 

Further, it is false to claim that Floyd had no physical injuries. Tobin said Floyd straightening out his legs after about five minutes was a signal that he was having a type of seizure caused by a brain injury from oxygen deprivation. 

The autopsy did not find any "life-threatening" injuries in Floyd's neck near his head, spine, chest, brain or skull, however, the report identified blunt-force injuries to his face, shoulders, hands, arms and legs, a broken rib and bruises on the wrists from handcuffs. 

Additionally, the report does not say Floyd's lungs were three times normal size, as the post claims. The autopsy states sections of the right and left lung showed "generally normal overall architecture." 

Our rating: False

The claim that the cause of Floyd's death was a fentanyl overdose is FALSE, based on our research. The medical examiner's autopsy and an independent autopsy done at the request of Floyd's family both ruled his death a homicide. Floyd's toxicology report revealed fentanyl in his system, however, experts agree it was not enough to be considered fatal. COVID-19 was not listed as a factor in Floyd's death, and claims that Floyd didn't have any life-threatening injuries are misleading. Floyd's lack of oxygen during his arrest resulted in brain damage and caused his heart to stop.






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TWS1405_2
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@oromagi
That fact check is wrong. 

It’s not about just the fentanyl, it’s the drug cocktail in and of itself that killed him. A fact overlooked in this so-called PC fact check cut n paste job you just posted. 

And as I said, for political and socially divisive purposes along racial lines (and blue lines), those who testified perjured themselves. 
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@TWS1405_2
  • There were two autopsies of Floyd yeilding four expert opinions-  Dr. Andrew Baker, Dr Michael Baden, Dr. Allecia WIlson, and it was latter revealed that Bill Barr quietly ordered a review by the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner.  All four expert opinions were in  agreement that Floyd's death was homicide by asphyxiation, no expert thought that Floyd died of a drug overdose.  Even at trial, Chauvin's own hired forensic pathologist did not try to argue that Floyd's death should be ruled an overdose but only argued that Floyd's cause of death should be considered "undetermined."  
  • We should note that a nanogram is one one-millionth of a milligram.  Although 2mg is a potentially lethal dose,   11ng is .0000055% of that potentially lethal dose.   Multiplied by Floyd's body weight we are talking about thousandths of a potentially lethal dose.
    • Susan Neith, a forensic chemist who testified that three pills found inside the SUV and squad car contained a fentanyl concentration of less than 1% and a methamphetamine concentration of 1.9 to 2.9%, whereas "the majority of time" Neith sees "90 to 100% methamphetamine"
      • That is, the pills Floyd were taking were less than 5% typical street strength- stepped on weak shit.
    • Daniel Isenschmid, a forensic toxicologist who testified that the ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl in Floyd's blood was 1.96 ng/ml, below the average of 9.05 in postmortem cases and 3.2 in DUI cases, adding that overdose victims rarely have norfentanyl in their blood.  He also testified that Floyd's level of methamphetamine was in the bottom 5.9% of a sample of DUI methamphetamine cases
      • That is, Floyd was long past peak toxicity:  if the far less than lethal amount of drugs in Floyd's system were going to kill him, they would have killed him many hours before the cops arrived.

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TWS1405_2
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@oromagi
Are you daft? 

The subject of this debate has nothing to do with just fentanyl being the cause of death, but everything to do with the “speed ball” mixed drug cocktail he took. 

Reading comprehension matters. 

PS. He consumed the speed ball right there in the car just before police made contact. 
#17
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someone saying "a degree of medical certainty" is a meaningless phrase. there is no standard for "medical degree of certainty"
its nonsense what people say to justify their findings.
i dont trust anyone, doctors are humans too.

they should have held police to same standard as eric garner if there was indeed proof that confrotation led to floyd's death.
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@oromagi
Are you daft? 
  • ad hom
The subject of this debate has nothing to do with just fentanyl being the cause of death, but everything to do with the “speed ball” mixed drug cocktail he took.  Reading comprehension matters. 
  • Agreed.  You have failed to comprehend the findings of every single medical expert who looked at Floyd's toxicology- the amount and interaction of drugs in Floyd's system did not kill him, was a tiny fraction of typically lethal doses.  The norfentanyl conversion ratio in Floyd's system proves that Floyd was long past high.

PS. He consumed the speed ball right there in the car just before police made contact. 
  • No testimony supports that claim.  You are just making up lies.


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@TWS1405_2
You have yet to provide a sliver of evidence that methamphetamine and fentanyl were active at the same time, at the time of his arrest. I’ve already spelled out it is very common to encounter both in someone’s system even if they aren’t taking it at the same time. 

I also showed you peer reviewed studies, by people who had nothing to do with the autopsy, about how looking at blood concentrations after death is useless. You have yet to respond to a single point I made, all you’ve done is roll your eyes. Just admit you don’t know enough about pharmacology and toxicology to be among claims about it. What is your evidence those two drugs were active in his system at the same time? You haven’t answered because there is none, you can’t prove it at all. I also showed you other reasons he would be having a hard time breathing, you didn’t respond, why is it so certain that we can rule out all other variables of this arrest simply because he had drugs in his system? It’s because you think drugs like fentanyl and meth only cause problems. You also are making an assumption that just because they were in his system, means they were taken together which you can’t prove, and have no evidence for. You also don’t know anything about how looking at drugs in the system Post Mortem is useless and has no purpose, you also haven’t responded to that. Don’t bring hot scientific topics when you don’t know anything about them simply because you think the claims you are making is beneficial to your political beliefs. That is how corruption of evidence begins. That is what you have done since the moment we started our conversation. Misconstrued evidence, either out of ignorance or intentionally, and made unfounded claims because you think it makes your political orientation stronger. 


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@oromagi
As much as i support what you’re claiming you’re still wrong about the Ng comparison you made. That measurements was ng/ml not just the amount of ng of a drug found in his system. That’s a different measurement. 

But the claim he made about the 2mg lethal dose is also wrong. Because lethal doses aren’t measured that way. They’re measured in the way of mg/kg meaning the lethal dose for the average person will increase as their weight increases. So he is also completely wrong about whatever he is trying to say. And is a perfect example of a person who is uneducated about pharmacology and toxicity trying to make claims. 
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@oromagi
As much as i support what you’re claiming you’re still wrong about the Ng comparison you made. That measurements was ng/ml not just the amount of ng of a drug found in his system. That’s a different measurement. 

But the claim he made about the 2mg lethal dose is also wrong. Because lethal doses aren’t measured that way. They’re measured in the way of mg/kg meaning the lethal dose for the average person will increase as their weight increases. So he is also completely wrong about whatever he is trying to say. And is a perfect example of a person who is uneducated about pharmacology and toxicity trying to make claims. 
  • you missed this sentence by me in post #15: "Multiplied by Floyd's body weight we are talking about thousandths of a potentially lethal dose." 

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Ok (sic) you have a basic misunderstanding of what the coroner is saying when they say no life threatening (sic) injuries. They are basically saying, he didn’t have a broken neck, didn’t have a collapsed wind pipe, (sic) etc. that doesn’t mean that having your air way inhibited, can’t kill you without causing physical injury. That’s not how it works.
No, it is to you who is exhibiting a clear misunderstanding of what the coroner said; “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified" means exactly what is being said. There is nothing encrypted or vague about it; and no one reading this thread needs you to spell out the obvious ("he didn't have a broken neck, didn't have a collapsed wind pipe, (sic) etc." It also means no trauma to the windpipe or larynx (e.g. bruising, tearing) - i.e., "there was no physical evidence of asphyxia, or insufficient oxygen."   And that is exactly how that works! 

Have you ever seen someone get choked unconscious in MMA? If they would’ve held onto that choke, that person would’ve died, and they wouldn’t have had any life threatening injuries. They just would have been chocked to death.
Irrelevant false equivalency fallacy. 

Which is why your idea that the original autopsy refutes itself is incorrect. 
I never said "the original autopsy" in and of itself, only these statements were: 

  •  “As was released earlier by the medical examiner’s office, Floyd’s cause of death is listed officially as “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”  The full autopsy report states further that “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified.”  The medical examiner’s office had also previously deemed the manner of Floyd’s death a “homicide.” 
The contradiction is the coroner stating unequivocally that there were "no life-threatening injuries," and yet the official cause of death was a heart attack, and the death was still ruled a "homicide."  That's the glaring contradiction. 

Also “The lethal dose of fentanyl is 2mg (but can be less)” this is a perfect example of you not knowing anything about drugs man. (sic)
Quite the leap there claiming because I stated the lethal dose of fentanyl being 2mg (or less) = me not knowing anything about (any and all) drugs. *FP*
That being said, you are wrong. While sources vary, 2mg is most consistent among them:

"Fentanyl is a very powerful opioid drug that can have fatal consequences if it is taken in very high doses (about 2 milligrams or more) or mixed with other drugs."
"Just 2.5 milligrams of fentanyl can be fatal."
"Fentanyl: Estimated Fatal Dose in Adult: 2mg" (pg. 3)
"The estimated lethal dose of fentanyl is 2 mg. Depending on where the fentanyl comes from (i.e. illicit or prescription), the lethal dose may be lower."


I’m going to break this down very simply for you. The LD50 for fentanyl in rats...
Rats =/= Human Beings, much less George Floyd. 

So he would’ve had a tolerance. 
Unless you were his drug consuming bed buddy, you neither know this for a personal fact or otherwise. Everyone who knew him said he was getting off the sauce (no clarification) and working on turning his life around. For all anyone knows that day could have been the very first time he used that speed ball laced with illicit fentanyl (and who knows what else beyond the meth). As such, he would have zero tolerance. His history of drug use centered around cocaine than meth let alone fentanyl. AND like everyone else, you're forgetting he tested positive for Covid-19; which can cause acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS).  ARDS can be fatal, and I would wager it certainly would be when compounded by an individual speedballing and having a weak heart suffering from hypertension as well.

Also the amount of drugs in someone blood will increase upon their death, because they likely lost blood during death...
Floyd had no blood loss from any known or reported wound caused by the encounter with law enforcement. So that rules your unfounded theory out.

...and there is no blood circulating to clean out the substance from the system. This is a well recorded and commented thing in toxicology. 
“Post-mortem changes render the assumptions of clinical pharmacology largely invalid, and make the interpretation of concentrations measured in post-mortem samples difficult or impossible. ”
No shit. 

"Results and conclusions: The postmortem behavior of fentanyl is influenced heavily by pH changes and the antemortem kinetic behavior of the drug, especially, by its distribution. Postmortem blood fentanyl concentrations do not correlate directly with antemortem blood concentrations. Without adequate evaluation of kinetic data, investigative information and consideration of postmortem changes, misinterpretation of postmortem fentanyl results is likely."

That isn’t something you’re just allowed to ignore, like you did every single time I brought it up when we were arguing in the comment section of another debate. 
What other debate? We were not debating anything. You may have been debating with yourself or some imaginary person, but I certainly was not debating you. Especially within a "comment section" of someone else's formal "debate." I was merely baiting you, not even reading your drivel in its entirety. It was more entertaining watching you squirm, especially when @Sir.Lancelot goaded you on, and you took the bait hook line and sinker. 

Also (sic) you have absolutely 0 evidence fentanyl and methamphetamine were even active in his system at the time of arrest.
Yeah, I do. It's in the body cam videos. 
"George Floyd can be heard admitting on videotape that he took drugs before his fatal arrest..."

Do you really believe it is impossible he was claiming that he was having trouble breathing because he was being pulled over, likely panicking, and had Covid? Have you never experienced panic before? It’s hard to breathe, add Covid to that equation, it’s very hard to breathe. He knew he broke the law and was probably going to get arrested and began to have a panic attack, like anyone else would. 
"Thao’s attorney, Robert Paule, asked Tuesday whether Baker was pressured into listing “neck compression” as a factor in his autopsy report. Baker testified that he told prosecutors on the day of Floyd’s autopsy that there was no physical evidence of asphyxia, or insufficient oxygen. Prosecutors put that information in their initial complaint against Chauvin, and listed existing health conditions, police restraint and potential intoxicants as contributing factors."

I don’t understand why you feel the need to bring politics into this discussion. Was every single person on that jury brainwashed or planted there by the left? How likely is that? I don’t care what your Political orientation is, I have no political opinions. So let’s keep this to the pharmacology and science of the situation if you don’t mind. 
Politics has everything to do with this case, as it has with every case before it and will after it. Democrats never let a tragedy go to waste. The progressive white guilt leftists abuse it too. It is their anvil use to drive/hammer divisive rhetoric between whites and blacks, and blacks and cops. I mean really, BLM (Burn Loot Murder) was founded upon a lie about Michael Brown, and the subsequent case of Trayvon Martin. Race hustlers thrive on this shit. It makes them money. And Patrice Cullors saw that, knew that, and she sure as shit took advantage of that abuse of her own people. 

George Floyd had about 92 pounds of pressure on his neck. That may not kill someone if they are healthy, meaning don’t have COVID and aren’t panicking. 
Wow, that is a pretty precise measurement there. How did you come upon that figure? Were you there? Did you speak to Chauvin? After all, only Chauvin knows exactly how hard (or not) he applied his knee to the back of Floyd's neck.  Panicking? Ever hear of Excited Delirium?

Take ED and combine that with Covid-19, cardiovascular disease, severe hypertension disease, and speedballing... that's the DIRECT CAUSE of Floyd's death. NOT the infamous knee on the neck. 

You are correct that combing amphetamine stimulants and Opioids is a deadly mixture. However (sic) I have asked you for this many times, you have yet to present it. What is your evidence that those two drugs were both active in his system at the time of arrest? You realize you can take meth of Tuesday, and fentanyl on Wednesday and not face those deadly effects of mixing them correct? You can even take them both on the same day.
I refer you to the previously cited video evidence where Floyd admits to eating too many drugs, and having trouble breathing before police even approached the car.

You make a lot of claims with no evidence to support them.
LOL!!! When you see a word or a series of words that are highlighted and underlined in "blue" text, that's a hyperlink to a source that gives "evidence" to back up a given claim. 

You say some random “lethal dose” as if that applies to everyone which is patently false.
Strawman fallacy.

And ignore basic toxicology and pharmacological science.
Psychological projection.

You’ve ignored both of those points many times, but are condescending and annoying about me (sic) claiming I know more than you on those two topics, when I clearly do.
Dunning Kruger Effect response. 

 All of the evidence supports my claim that drugs did not kill George Floyd...
Delusions of grandeur.

...you have no evidence to support your claim that they did.
Asked and give, now in two semi-lengthy posts. 

The evidence you cite isn’t even anywhere near factually accurate.
Easy to claim, harder to prove. 

Especially your lethal dose nonsense.
And yet the cited sources are far more credible than your mere subjective word on the matter. To wit you have given no evidence to the contrary. 

Be condescending all you’d like, ...
Only one here with a history of being a condescending little prick is you, pal. 

...you simply don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to toxicology and drugs, and it’s abundantly clear after doing three minutes of google searching.
Another Dunning Kruger Effect response. *FP*

Just because you rolled your eyes doesn’t mean you are correct man. Especially on the pharmacology and toxicology front. You’re going to have a very hard time combatting anything I said when it comes to that. 
Non sequitur fallacy. 

There are things called blood chokes: these chokes can put someone to sleep, or kill the person if they are held long enough. 
False equivalency fallacy to this case. 

I’m not speaking of weird sexual tendencies, you do you. 

However over 9 minutes is too long. Especially if the person has Covid. 
Fallacy of irrelevance, or ignoratio elenchi. 

Dude, you couldn't effectively argue your way out of a wet paper bag.




I see you made yet another comment before I posted this one. Desperate much? Insecure much? Impatient much? *yawn* 


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#23
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Melcharaz,

One's health status has to be a direct factor of consideration in these cases. They must; because when someone is in poor health even a really good scare (like a prank) can have the very potential to cause someone to experience a heart attack.

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@oromagi
Are you daft? 
  • ad hom
No, that's a question. 

The subject of this debate has nothing to do with just fentanyl being the cause of death, but everything to do with the “speed ball” mixed drug cocktail he took.  Reading comprehension matters. 
  • Agreed.  You have failed to comprehend the findings of every single medical expert who looked at Floyd's toxicology- the amount and interaction of drugs in Floyd's system did not kill him, was a tiny fraction of typically lethal doses.  The norfentanyl conversion ratio in Floyd's system proves that Floyd was long past high.
And yet it goes beyond that with the other very real and complicated health factors Floyd was afflicted with that contribued directly to his death: heart disease, hypertension, Covid-19, excited delirium, AND speedballing. 

PS. He consumed the speed ball right there in the car just before police made contact. 
  • No testimony supports that claim.  You are just making up lies.
It's on the body cam video, which was introduced at trial. Floyd can be heard saying he was having trouble breathing as the initial officer approached his car on the driver's side. 
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But the claim he made about the 2mg lethal dose is also wrong. 
No, it's not and I proved you wrong in the above response. 

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“Rats =/= Human Beings, much less George Floyd.” You’re correct, which is why there is a conversion factor. 
LD 50 measurements: 

Your information surrounding the lethal dose of fentanyl is simply false. As you have said just because someone with a PhD says a lie doesn’t make it not a lie. Of course a lethal dose can be low, I’ve already explained to you how that can occur, but you are still not using the proper measurements of lethal dosages for drugs. 

Sure I can’t prove he had a tolerance to fentanyl, but Peope have said he liked the drug. Regardless, you can’t prove fentanyl was active in his system, or if fentanyl and methamphetamine were active in his system at the same time. That’s what you’re entire cases relies on and you can’t prove it. I can prove that the lethal dose for someone his size is higher than 2mg and I have proven it. I have also proven that post mortem drug concentrations don’t show you anything valuable, you refuse to engage with that fact. 

Word salad doesn’t win arguments. I have shown you exactly why your measurements for lethal dosages are inaccurate and useless in this case. The gold standard for lethal dose measurements is the LD50 not saying “this is a lethal dose” because it varies widely due to weight and tolerance you can’t claim one lethal dose. You were literally arguing with me, when I was making a joke to another user and called it irrelevant, yeah dumb ass it was because I wasn’t talking to you, you dork. 

You said my lethal dose measurements were subjective… that is completely false it is based off of how lethal doses are ascertained and calculated, you can’t comprehend the most basic aspect of pharmacology, i can’t help you there. 

Also i feel like you think I’m saying the knee was the only aspect in his death, sure drugs could’ve been an aspect, if you can prove they were active in his system, sure Covid was a factor, it wasn’t just the knee. But you are acting like the knee had nothing to do with it, that is where we disagree. I also disagree with the way you talk about lethal dosages. I also have a problem with you refusing to engage with the issues post mortem concentration measurements, because it doesn’t support your argument. 

You say I’m projecting when I say you have no knowledge, but you are showing me that you don’t. You can use all of the fancy vocabulary you’d like, you’re still wrong. 
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“Rats =/= Human Beings, much less George Floyd.” You’re correct, which is why there is a conversion factor. 
LD 50 measurements: 
Still doesn't mean shit unless you factor in the realities of excited delirium, covid-19 and the speedball altogether. 

Your information surrounding the lethal dose of fentanyl is simply false. As you have said just because someone with a PhD says (sic) a lie doesn’t make it not a lie. Of course (sic) a lethal dose can be low, I’ve already explained to you how that can occur, but you are still not using the proper measurements of lethal dosages for drugs. 
Wow. Pretty arrogant and mighty self-righteous of you to categorically state that an experienced drug addiction organization like AddictionResource.net, the EPA, the CDC, the DEA, and NIH, among many other organizations are all wrong...according to you. ROTFLMAO!!!!!! You have not discredited either of them, which in turn means you have not discredited what I said regarding the consistently listed/known 2mg amount (or less) of fentanyl being fatal.

Sure (sic) I can’t prove he had a tolerance to fentanyl, but Peope (sic) have said he liked the drug.
Wow, you can admit when you're wrong. Amazing!

What "Peope"? Prove it. 

Regardless, you can’t prove fentanyl was active in his system...
Already did, you ignored/denied it. 

I have also proven that post mortem (sic) drug concentrations don’t show you anything valuable, you refuse to engage with that fact. 
Lie. Denialism?

Repeating what I wrote above in #22:

  • "Results and conclusions: The postmortem behavior of fentanyl is influenced heavily by pH changes and the antemortem kinetic behavior of the drug, especially, by its distribution. Postmortem blood fentanyl concentrations do not correlate directly with antemortem blood concentrations. Without adequate evaluation of kinetic data, investigative information and consideration of postmortem changes, misinterpretation of postmortem fentanyl results is likely."
Word salad doesn’t win arguments.
Psychological projection. 

I have shown you exactly why your measurements for lethal dosages are inaccurate and useless in this case.
Delusions of grandeur. 

You were literally arguing with me, when I was making a joke to another user and called it irrelevant, yeah dumb ass it was because I wasn’t talking to you, you dork. 
Psychological projection. 

You said my lethal dose measurements were subjective… that is completely false it is based off of how lethal doses are ascertained and calculated, you can’t comprehend the most basic aspect of pharmacology, i can’t help you there. 
Yeah, I did. The word of organizations like AddictionResource.net, the EPA, the CDC, the DEA, and NIH, among many other organizations are FAR MORE credible than your inept and arrogant pseudo know-it-all take on the matter is concerned. 

Also i (sic) feel like you think I’m saying the knee was the only aspect in his death, sure drugs could’ve been an aspect, if you can prove they were active in his system, sure Covid was a factor, it wasn’t just the knee. But you are acting like the knee had nothing to do with it, that is where we disagree.
The knee does have absolutely nothing to do with it. The same as the alleged chokehold on Eric Gardner had nothing to do with his death. It had everything to do with the subject's health status and in the case of Floyd, what drugs were present in his system, as well as excited delirium in both cases. 

I also disagree with the way you talk about lethal dosages.
I do not care. No one cares. Because you're wrong on this point. Disproven by organizations like AddictionResource.net, the EPA, the CDC, the DEA, and NIH, among many other organizations for that matter. 

I also have a problem with you refusing to engage with the issues post mortem (sic) concentration measurements, because it doesn’t support your argument. 
Blind, deaf and dumb? I addressed this in my response and again above herein. 

You say I’m projecting when I say you have no knowledge, but you are showing me that you don’t. You can use all of the fancy vocabulary you’d like, you’re still wrong. 

No, I say you are exhibiting psychological projection under certain circumstances that are clear as day...not that I have no knowledge. 

You're the who is wrong. As such, it makes you the posterchild for the Dunning-Kruger Effect. 





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Mate, I’m not saying they’re wrong, I’m saying your interpretation of them is wrong. Also I would trust mechanistic studies that show exactly how things work and why an LD50 is established over the DEA and addiction recovery websites. 

I’m not going to argue with your points this time, I’m going to ask you a question, depending on how you answer it, will decide whether or not I go on to tackle your points. Science isn’t as simple as you are making it to be, which is coming with people who bend science around their political orientation. 

What would it take for you to change your mind on this topic? Is there any amount of evidence or logical arguments, that could make you re consider your position? 
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Again you can use all of these fancy debate terms, there is a reason scientists, who are completely separate and independent of George Floyd or anything related to him have come to a different conclusion than yourself. It has nothing to do with me appealing to authority, I just want you to consider why people, who have studied this stuff most of their life, including myself, disagree with you. Is it because we are brainwashed by the left? Is it because we are sheep? Or is it because we have a more comprehensive understanding of this topic and believe the evidence points in a different direction than you do, with your limited knowledge in the topic. 

Again this isn’t an appeal to the argument of authority, if you were telling me stuff about politics or some topic you have devoted lots of time to studying, I would be more inclined to believe you, or put more weight to your opinions than my own. Because I don’t know much about politics and don’t care to. I believe you are simplifying the way this science works, and are implementing confirmation bias to support your political beliefs. That doesn’t mean I am completely right or that you are completely wrong. It is simply that we don’t agree on what the evidence is showing, or how it should be interpreted.

If I had to guess the methamphetamine is what was active in his system, I don’t see any behavior indicative of a large dose of opioids. Fentanyl is much more potent than methamphetamine and more powerful in terms of its affinity to the receptors it activates, so with a dose that large (if the dose was even that large) the opioid effects would have over powered the amphetamine effects. I didn’t see any evidence of that being the case, I saw a very stimulated, scared and panicked person. All of those are effects of amphetamine stimulants. Thag absolutely would’ve played a part in his death, if it was active. My argument is that it wasn’t the cause of his death. Because he wasn’t showing symptoms of him dying before the officer arrived, in my opinion. I saw the effects of being scared and panicking, which causes trouble breathing and shaking, etc. so I don’t think I disagree with you in that, if either drug was active, it played a part in his death. My issue comes from blaming his death solely on that, especially when the last variable to enter the equation was the officer kneeling on his neck. 

I don’t want to have a heated and condescending debate. I’m simply too tired for it. I’m trying to clarify my point and stance on this. There are many unanswerable questions, that it is hard to pin point any one cause of his death, and that is what you are doing that I disagree with. The drugs could have certainly played a role if they were active, so did Covid, did he have pre existing heart conditions? We’re the negative effects of the stimulant exacerbated by the panic he was feeling from being pinned down for nine minutes? Probably. 

I appreciate your research into the topic, I simply think you are over simplifying the science and misinterpreting the data. 
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Mate,
Not your mate, friend or otherwise. 


I’m not saying they’re wrong, I’m saying your interpretation of them is wrong.

So, if they say 2 + 2 = 4, and I quote them saying 2 + 2 = 4, you're actually going to sit there and tell me (and everyone else reading your drivel) that my "interpretation" of that is wrong? 



Also (sic) I would trust mechanistic studies that show exactly how things work and why an LD50 is established over the DEA and addiction recovery websites. 
LOL! Yeah, the CDC, DEA, et al don't know nutt'in compared to Mps1213...some anonymous pseudo know-it-all user hiding behind a sock puppet account in an online forum with absolutely ZERO FUCKING CREDIBILITY!!! And you expect everyone to take YOUR word over those credible agencies? WOW! 


I’m not going to argue with your points this (sic) time...

 Translation: I win, you lose this debate. 


There are many unanswerable (sic) questions, that it is hard to pin point (sic) any one cause of his death, and that is what you are doing that I disagree with.
NO, there are not many "unanswerable" questions. Based on historical data of police encounters with idiots like Floyd, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the truth behind his death. 

For your edification:
My background is US Army MP Investigator (Drug Suppression Team under C.I.D.), AAS Paralegal, BS Criminology and Criminal Justice, worked for a County Sheriff and before retirement, a County District Attorney's Office. I know how to read statutory law. I also know how to read medical related information as a Veteran's Advocate helping those in need to get their disability benefits. And I have about an 85-90% success rate in doing that. 100% in my own case. I have even won cases at the Board of Veterans Appeals. 

So do not sit there and tell me I do not know what I am talking about, let alone what I am capable of reading and discerning for myself. 

EDITED for corrections and additions.

PS.  Your prose is found wanting.