Why religious people don’t make sense to me

Author: TheUnderdog

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#1
TheUnderdog
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Let’s say you had to pick between getting $1 right now and getting $1 million a day for the rest of your life in 80 years (assuming you live that long and never die).  Most people would pick the 2nd option because people think in the long term.

Now let’s say I ask you,

“What do you value more, 70 years of living a middle class life in earth and going to heaven and not getting much reward, or giving away all your wealth because Jesus tells you too and getting to go to an eternal heaven with significantly more reward than being middle class for 70 years because the reward is more intense than being a billionaire and the reward lasts for an eternity whereas you being a billionaire does not?”

If you were being logically consistent, you would claim the eternal reward is better than the earthly reward.  But if you REALLY believe that, you would agree to sell all you have and give the money to the poor so you can maximize the eternal salvation’s reward.

Since most Christians don’t live this (the priests do, so credit to them for sticking to their values) but since most Christians don’t, should I call their bluff?

This is one reason why I don’t want to be religious.
#2
Melcharaz
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@TheUnderdog
an intresting strawman. Jesus only told 1 person to sell all he had, the rich young ruler. because he would still be a ruler.

scripture tells us in james that there is no evil in being rich. God commands the rich to not love money, otherwise it is evil.

another strawman is that most people who say they are christians, arent actually christians, because they dont obey God, nor do they the works of Christ.


a misunderstanding people have about heaven is what the reward is, its not money, its relationship and joy with God and Jesus Christ. scripture tells us that heaven is righteousness, joy and peace in the holy ghost.

many people dont even know what the bible is about because they dont read it, or they dont understand it.
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#3
TheUnderdog
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@Melcharaz
scripture tells us in james that there is no evil in being rich.
Where does it say that?

God commands the rich to not love money, otherwise it is evil.
The way to not love money is to give it all away, right?  I love my assets, so that’s why I don’t want to give them away.

Jesus only told 1 person to sell all he had, the rich young ruler.
Wouldn’t that be a commandment for everyone?
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@TheUnderdog
Thanks for your thoughts. 

Interestingly, I think most people, non-religious people, don't think in the long term but in the short term. this is why people have so much private debt. This is why people don't choose religion. This is why people live for today and don't consider consequences. 

There are those who make 5-year plans etc. But not most people. 

Jesus' point in the story, you sort of relate to us about the rich man giving all his money away is about priorities and I guess there is a sense in which he is comparing long-term and short term so I think you are partially correct in relation to your thoughts.  But the point of the story was particular for this man not for everyone. It was not a generalisation in relation to money. the general point was about priorities, not about money. In other words, for the man who values money, it is an issue, but for the man who values his own intellect, then that is the issue, or for the man who values his family, then his family becomes the issue, or the man who values some other idol, then that is the issue.  Jesus is making the point that he ought to be the priority over anything else.  Money, intelligence, family, and idols.  and that is where the comparison between long-term and short-term is valid.  what needs to be understood is that Jesus was also using hyperbole. He is not literally saying - you must get rid of these things or you must hate them, he is saying that you must put me first. 

There is also another element here that is missing.  And that is that God is not utilitarian and he does not want his people to be either.  He believes in both the means and the ends. The ends don't justify the means.  Hence, I find the notion that - you are calling a bluff, a bluff.  It doesn't make sense. 


#5
Melcharaz
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@TheUnderdog
edit: 1 timothy 6:9-10, 17-19

no. what Jesus told 1 person to do doesnt mean everyone should do it. method is in alignment with obedience, not obedience its self.
#6
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otherwise we would have to go kill all the amalekites like God told saul.
#7
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Do regular Christians believe in varying degrees of reward in heaven? I was raised in an insular Mormon community, who split heaven into three distinct categories, but I thought that most believed that you either went to heaven or you didn't.
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@Melcharaz
an intresting strawman. Jesus only told 1 person to sell all he had, the rich young ruler. because he would still be a ruler.
The book of Luke has a different feel than the other gospels. If you knew nothing of the rest of the Bible and just read Luke, you would get the impression you should be poor and it is spiritually superior to be poor.

The early christians were mostly poor, women and slaves. They were often criticized for the Romans for this until the wealthy apologists came later who could defend the bible more appropriately. 

These people lived communally in poverty and led very simple live's. 

It used to make me very uncomfortable reading Luke when I was a child, because I was poor and wanted out of poverty but the book gave me the message it was better to live in poverty. 

Sit down and just read Luke. Don't try to cross reference with what you know in the other gospels. Just read it and take in it's message. 
#9
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@TheUnderdog
God commands the rich to not love money, otherwise it is evil.
The way to not love money is to give it all away, right? I love my assets, so that’s why I don’t want to give them away.
Apologists believe that he was saying that to the rich man because that particular person put money above God. They often point to verses such as the command to gouge your eyes if they keep you from the kingdom of heaven or cut off your arm if it keeps you from the kingdom of heaven. It isn't having an arm or eyes or money that is sinful. He wouldn't command everyone to do those things. 

They are most likely reading too much into it and the message is to reject the earthly realm and focus on the kingdom of God. This view eventually became the minority and the gnostics adopted it, while the new belief that wealth is fine, became orthodoxy. Most likely due to the influx of wealthy people into the religion as opposed to it being just for slaves and women or primarily anyway. 
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@Melcharaz
no. what Jesus told 1 person to do doesnt mean everyone should do it. method is in alignment with obedience, not obedience its self.

You know you are on thin ice, interpreting gospel to appear more digestible to the general public as opposed to accepting it's true intent? 

If you won 200 million in the lottery tomorrow, it would be a sin to keep it all or even most of it. God said do not worry about what you will eat or drink tomorrow as God will provide for you.
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In a lot of religions people go back to one thing defending why they believe, for example the Bible. 50% of these comments mention it. However, some people don’t even believe in it, therefore, how is it a true argument. In all honestly, religions, Gods, are for emotional security and that’s that. Nothing beyond that. We as human beings need someone or something to put all of our pain on, into. We think through this, through this God, made up by how you want to interpret them will decide our fate, our life, everything. We don’t let go of the past because the future holds so much pain, we don’t let go of this god because we hold so much undeniable hurt and hope. However, why would we spend our whole life’s racking our brains to find out if something is real or not, the human mind can not truly comprehend anything other worldly or anything ethereal. There’s a lot of religions, and truly they are all just interpretations of why you want them to be, words to stem yourself into a better person. Maybe there is a god, but the chances of us to know multiple things about them is almost unreal. I support you in you believe in a religion.

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Well, it all depends on the branch of christianity we are talking about. You americans have been very lucky to have protestantism as a building block for your society. As far as I know, the interpretation of protestants are quite different from catholics. While protestants believe God wants them wealthy through hard work and discipline (very similiar to Jews), Catholics are more like communists, they think God wants them to give up all their money.

Just compare french and spanish societies with english and dutch. French and Spanish are kind of socialists because they embraced catholicism. English and Dutch, on the other side, are more liberals because they embraced protestantism, thats why they are richer. By the way, first settlers of the US came from Netherlands and England, all of them radical protestants.
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@PREZ-HILTON
you seem to be looking at scripture from a personal point of view, allowing your emotions, experiences and pain to affect your interpretation.
all of scripture works together to show who God is and how he works.
That being said, i would never play the lottery, nor just read the gospel of luke (which, according to paul is the beloved physician, his work prior to meeting christ gave him understanding of people in poverty, as well as when he followed christ) without considering the other gospels.

the way i present things, you have to ask me questions, i do not operate according to most people's thinking (just ask anyone who knew me from 3+ years ago) Do not assume i say everyone should be rich or poor. infact, its in psalms that david prays to neither be poor to the point of stealing, nor rich to the point where he disregards God.
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@TheUnderdog
Internal electro-chemical data analysing systems, variously interpret incoming sensory signals.

And make up and output all sorts of sh*t.

Some of that sh*t is referred to as religion.

And other stuff is sometimes referred to as the Grammy Awards.

All perhaps comes under the umbrella of social ideology.

Like saying the umbrella of social ideology, for example.
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@TheUnderdog
"Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”Matthew 19:21

I wonder, what good would be giving to" the poor " serve, if the end of the world is coming to an end? What will "the poor "do with all of that hard earned cash and hard earned life times belongings of others that has just landed on their laps?


The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray.1 Peter 4:7

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@Melcharaz
you seem to be looking at scripture from a personal point of view, allowing your emotions, experiences and pain to affect your interpretation.
I don't understand why you would say that when my interpretation of Luke is from using his own words and yours interpretation comes from trying to downplay his words and twist scripture to support your position.

nor just read the gospel of luke
You really should try studying scripture sometime by zoning in on books or learning the original Greek and getting the original feel. It will likely draw you closer to God. I understand the temptation just to read it over and over waiting for some sort of enlightenment, but it really pays to do the work of trying to dig into the meaning. 

without considering the other gospels.
You should, each writer had a different aspect of Jesus and different things they were trying to get across, by ignoring Luke's message by trying to muddy it with the other books you are missing his message. 


Do not assume i say everyone should be rich or poor. infact, its in psalms that david prays to neither be poor to the point of stealing, nor rich to the point where he disregards God.

I didn't assume you thought everyone should be rich. You do however misinterpret Luke because it quite clearly says everyone should be poor. Maybe you are wealthy so you reject what God is telling you there, if so we can see by your response to the message why you would twist the bible and maybe that twisting is subconscious on your part. You did say that you refuse to just dive into what look says and will consider the other gospels and parts of the Bible while reading it, which is essentially admitting that you cherry pick verses you think will correct Luke's message, though I am sure you see it as providing "context". I have already provided context though by giving a history of early christians.
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@Stephen
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”Matthew 19:21

I wonder, what good would be giving to" the poor " serve, if the end of the world is coming to an end? What will "the poor "do with all of that hard earned cash and hard earned life times belongings of others that has just landed on their laps?


The answer is that it doesn't matter. Give the possessions to the poor is not about helping the poor. It is about making sure your focus is on God instead of all your possessions. 
#18
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It sounds mean that it isn't about helping the poor, but it's true. In a way it actually harms the poor because now they are focusing on possessions 
#19
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@PREZ-HILTON
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”Matthew 19:21

I wonder, what good would be giving to" the poor " serve, if the end of the world is coming to an end? What will "the poor "do with all of that hard earned cash and hard earned life times belongings of others that has just landed on their laps?


The answer is that it doesn't matter. Give the possessions to the poor is not about helping the poor. It is about making sure your focus is on God instead of all your possessions. 


And Peter tell us: The end of all things is near.

So my point is; what benefit to the "poor" will my hard earned possession and or wealth serve then, if the "end of all things is near". 

And did you know that when Jesus referrers to " the poor", it is reference to the celibate of the Qumrān sect? 
#20
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@Stephen
And did you know that when Jesus referrers to " the poor", it is reference to the celibate of the Qumrān sect? 
Never heard of that. It sounds interesting and I may see if I can find something on YouTube about it while I am at work
#21
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@PREZ-HILTON
instead of asking questions, you assume. instead of seeking understanding, you fight.
your mind is blinded by arrogance, you are a child in wisdom. you simply wont listen
i have no more words for you.
#22
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@Melcharaz

Takes one to know one.
#23
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@TheUnderdog
Since most Christians don’t live this (the priests do, so credit to them for sticking to their values) but since most Christians don’t, should I call their bluff?

This is one reason why I don’t want to be religious.
I just want to understand, you don't want to be religious because most people don't get rid of all their stuff and live a poor life as laid out in one of the gospels or because you think that many religious people are inherently hypocritical?

What do you mean, "call their bluff"? 
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#24
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@Melcharaz
The Bible verse you showed states that being rich is evil.  I’m not giving all of money if I were rich and I wouldn’t expect you to either.
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@ludofl3x
I just want to understand, you don't want to be religious because most people don't get rid of all their stuff and live a poor life as laid out in one of the gospels or because you think that many religious people are inherently hypocritical? 

What do you mean, "call their bluff"? 

I don’t want to be religious because I don’t want to give away all my possessions.  I don’t think most people are that religious either otherwise they would give all their assets to the poor.  It’s not hypocrisy, it’s just not being a true Christian (which I’m not knocking, but I have to acknowledge).
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@Tradesecret
Interestingly, I think most people, non-religious people, don't think in the long term but in the short term.
Possible, but I plan for the long term.  I also don’t want to give away me wealth and most Christians that plan for the long term don’t want to either.
#27
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@TheUnderdog
which one?
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#28
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@Melcharaz
1 timothy 6:9-10.
#29
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@TheUnderdog
Your only problem with this confusion, is that you think that in heaven, there is a ranking system. 

But there is not a ranking system, because with a ranking system comes sin in multiple ways. 

Heaven is paradise. 

#30
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@TheUnderdog
1 timothy 6:9-10
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

the Love of money is the root of all evil. not being rich. otherwise God would be a hypocrite in verses 17-19