Schelling Points Around Personhood

Author: K_Michael 1 year ago

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Topic's author

K_Michael

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K_Michael

01.31.2023 04:39PM

For those unfamiliar, Schelling points are points that people naturally converge to without any communication. An example would be two people being told to meet each other in New York, if you go to Grand Central Station or the Empire State Building at noon, you have a decent chance of meeting someone given that same instruction. This even occurs in nature, as butterflies will all travel to the highest points of local elevation to find mates.

In theories of when a fetus becomes a person, two options become immediately obvious; conception, and birth. There are others, the Biblical concept of quickening, the point of fetus viability, that many people have used.

I'd like to hear people's ideas, are there any others that I'm missing? What are the best arguments for each? How would these translate to an AI or sufficiently advanced animal gaining personhood?

Lemming

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Posts: 3,354

Lemming

01.31.2023 04:59PM

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@K_Michael

I think I get the Schelling points stuff,

People often think alike,

Due to their nature and nurture,

Though some individual may be at odds in their thoughts, of what is natural/common sense,

If their nature/nurture differs enough.

I don't know when one becomes a person,

Certainly at 'some point, individual breathe, think,

Even at conception, there is 'individuality, in the fact of 'difference,

. . .

Hm, then again, are twins different at that point?

Well, 'different from 'other fetuses than themselves,

And even themselves, they're in different locations, developing different perhaps thought slight.

But certainly even a 'bug has individual differences,

Hm, perhaps it's that I 'don't know, that worries me,

For AI, people often mention Data, from Star Trek,

One of the arguments for recognizing him as a person,

Was that people could 'not tell if he was or not.

. . .

Best.Korea

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Best.Korea

01.31.2023 05:25PM

It may not be common, but I am pretty sure that there is a belief that semen is a person.

People do have some common beliefs, but also many different believes.

Most people agree that abortion at 8 months of pregnancy is wrong.

Best.Korea

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Best.Korea

01.31.2023 05:29PM

How would these translate to an AI or sufficiently advanced animal gaining personhood?

If we look at human baby, we know it has less intelligence than AI. It has less intelligence than many animals. It also has less self-sufficiency than many animals. However, no one will point at the baby and say that its not a person.

YouFound_Lxam

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YouFound_Lxam

01.31.2023 08:32PM

I believe that life is intrinsically viable at conception. We can already prove that biological life starts at conception, so if it is a human zygote or fetus, that means that a human life starts at conception. Is there any case where a human has been not valuable and alive at the same time? No.

So life is intrinsically valuable starting at conception.

TWS1405_2

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TWS1405_2

02.01.2023 12:39AM

Personhood = [a] born “person.”

Here end of the lesson.

Topic's author

K_Michael

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K_Michael

02.01.2023 01:15AM

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@YouFound_Lxam

So life is intrinsically valuable starting at conception.

I asked about personhood, not life or "valuable life."

YouFound_Lxam

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YouFound_Lxam

02.01.2023 03:01PM

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@K_Michael

I asked about personhood, not life or "valuable life.

Doesn't personhood= a valuable human life?

YouFound_Lxam

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YouFound_Lxam

02.01.2023 03:02PM

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@TWS1405_2

Personhood = [a] born “person.”

Here end of the lesson.

So babys one second before leaving the womb are not people?

Topic's author

#10

K_Michael

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K_Michael

02.01.2023 08:56PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

Doesn't personhood= a valuable human life?

All living (braindead is iffy, and obviously pre-birth is controversial) humans are people, but not all people are necessarily human.

#11

TWS1405_2

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TWS1405_2

02.01.2023 10:59PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

--> @TWS1405_2
Personhood = [a] born “person.”

Here end of the lesson.
So babys one second before leaving the womb are not people?

Your prose leaves a lot to be desired.

Technically and biological reality is one viable fetus is pending birth, which upon birth (full extraction or expulsion from the womb (outside of her body), would be [a] person (singular). And do not reply with “what about twins, triplets, so on and so forth?” That would be an asinine semantics argument given the fact that the end result for each individual viable fetus = the same answer. Singular births is more common than twins or more. So for the sake of any subsequent anticipated stupid retorts, just read this as what the reality of a pregnancy is, a singular birth. All else (twins or more viable fetuses) equals the same as the singular birth. So let me fix it for you:

“So a baby about to be birthed, one second before leaving the woman, that baby is not a person?”

No, it is not. The law as well as society (e.g. cultural norms, social-psychology) dictate and accept that upon birth, not only is personhood bestowed upon the viable fetus, but so is the law - all rights, privileges and equal protections thereof.

#12

zedvictor4

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zedvictor4

02.02.2023 05:02AM

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@K_Michael

All living (braindead is iffy, and obviously pre-birth is controversial) humans are people, but not all people are necessarily human.

WTF?

#13

YouFound_Lxam

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YouFound_Lxam

02.02.2023 05:08AM

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@TWS1405_2

Technically and biological reality is one viable fetus is pending birth, which upon birth (full extraction or expulsion from the womb (outside of her body), would be [a] person (singular).

Ok, so it's fine for the mother to chop the baby in half, while she is extracting it from her birth canal, because it's not fully birthed yet.......

Goodluck arguing that.

#14

YouFound_Lxam

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YouFound_Lxam

02.02.2023 05:09AM

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@K_Michael

All living (braindead is iffy, and obviously pre-birth is controversial) humans are people, but not all people are necessarily human.

We get it. Your a furry.

#15

zedvictor4

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zedvictor4

02.02.2023 05:28AM

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@YouFound_Lxam

Chopping babies in half as they are being born.

Is that common practice in the US?

I don't think we do it over here.

Or was that just a teeny weeny bit of an emotional over-statement?

#16

YouFound_Lxam

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YouFound_Lxam

02.02.2023 01:58PM

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@zedvictor4

Chopping babies in half as they are being born.

Is that common practice in the US?

I don't think we do it over here.

Or was that just a teeny weeny bit of an emotional over-statement?

No, It doesn't happen.

I was just asking theoretically based on TWS1405_2's statement, if that would be morally ok to do.

Topic's author

#17

K_Michael

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K_Michael

02.02.2023 04:27PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

It has nothing to do with being a furry. If we are visited by an alien civilization, would you say that those individuals shouldn't be afforded the same value as humans?

Topic's author

#18

K_Michael

Debates: 38

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K_Michael

02.02.2023 04:31PM

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@zedvictor4

WTF?

What part?

#19

TWS1405_2

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TWS1405_2

02.02.2023 08:03PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

@TWS1405_2
Technically and biological reality is one viable fetus is pending birth, which upon birth (full extraction or expulsion from the womb (outside of her body), would be [a] person (singular).
Ok, so it's fine for the mother to chop the baby in half, while she is extracting it from her birth canal, because it's not fully birthed yet.......
Goodluck arguing that.

Strawman fallacy. 🤦

#20

YouFound_Lxam

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YouFound_Lxam

02.02.2023 10:27PM

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@K_Michael

It has nothing to do with being a furry. If we are visited by an alien civilization, would you say that those individuals shouldn't be afforded the same value as humans?

It depends.

But that is a big if.

So, for now, just say humans.

Topic's author

#21

K_Michael

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K_Michael

02.03.2023 03:20AM

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@YouFound_Lxam

There's no reason to narrow a definition that has historically only expanded over time. I predict that at least one species of animal (dolphins and chimps are some of the strongest candidates) will be afforded legal rights (i.e., can be represented in courts, similar to how a corporation is legally a person, etc.) before 2040.

#22

YouFound_Lxam

Debates: 33

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YouFound_Lxam

02.03.2023 03:25AM

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@K_Michael

There's no reason to narrow a definition that has historically only expanded over time. I predict that at least one species of animal (dolphins and chimps are some of the strongest candidates) will be afforded legal rights (i.e., can be represented in courts, similar to how a corporation is legally a person, etc.) before 2040.

.........alrighty then.

#23

AleutianTexan

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AleutianTexan

02.03.2023 02:18PM

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@K_Michael

So, to clarify your distinction, human is the homo sapien species and person is a being deserving of full rights and ethical consideration?

Topic's author

#24

K_Michael

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K_Michael

02.03.2023 09:03PM

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@AleutianTexan

Essentially yes, though the phrase "full rights" is imperfect. Children and adults have different legal rights, citizens vs. noncitizens, etc. Perhaps a dolphin's rights should be more analogous to that of a child, not capable of representing itself in court or entering into contracts, but carries special protections around consent and abuse.

#25

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

02.05.2023 07:36AM

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@AleutianTexan

So, to clarify your distinction, human is the homo sapien species and person is a being deserving of full rights and ethical consideration?

https://youtu.be/7z0rNd51hjY

#26

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

02.05.2023 07:38AM

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@YouFound_Lxam

So, for now, just say humans.

https://youtu.be/7z0rNd51hjY

#27

AleutianTexan

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AleutianTexan

02.05.2023 07:56AM

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@3RU7AL

Thank you for the video! I will watch it on my flight tomorrow!

#28

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

02.09.2023 03:01AM

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@AleutianTexan

nice

#29

YouFound_Lxam

Debates: 33

Posts: 2,182

YouFound_Lxam

02.09.2023 12:04PM

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@3RU7AL

https://youtu.be/7z0rNd51hjY

This video = two adults getting offended by history once again.

Even though they didn't live through that time period and didn't experience any of the hardships they are complaining about.

8 days later

#30

ebuc

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Posts: 4,920

ebuc

02.17.2023 12:55PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

So life is intrinsically valuable starting at conception.

Spermozoa and the egg are also biological life, ergo, they also are intrinsically valuable.

TWS...."Personhood = [a] born “person.” "....states it clearly.

The human is not an independent, breathing { inspirited } individual person until they have been born out of the pregnant woman, taken their first inspiration _ inspire } of oxygen and had their umbilical cord severed.

..." 1.fill (someone) with the urge or ability to do or feel something, especially to do something creative.

"his passion for romantic literature inspired him to begin writing"

2. breathe in (air); inhale "...

"Spire...1. a slender tapering blade or stalk (as of grass)

2. the upper tapering part of something (such as a tree or antler) : pinnacle

3 tapering roof or analogous pyramidal construction surmounting a tower

... steeple

The minimal spire is a tetra{4}hedron and a one mile high one of these tetrahedra was photographed on Mars by Voyager 1 spacecraft flyby of Mars 1972.

http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s09/figs/f86052.html

Oxygen has 8 electrons, and two tetrahedra = 8 veretexial points. Dual tetrahedra LINK define 8 corners crystal structure of a cube.