How to explain real Christianity, to non-belivers.

Author: YouFound_Lxam

Posts

Total: 269
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@ludofl3x
What's your answer to this question that would be substantively different than his answer?
Exactly my point. How is he going to condemn the Bible when he doesn't even understand it. I am have, and still am studying it. I understand some, but still not all. 

Well, not in the original Hebrew text one. Rosends points it out above. 
Yes it does. Like I said. Maybe not in that specific verse but it does in that version of the bible. 
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
How do you know what the Bible meant. I think if they were trying to be vague about it, they would just say woman, and not young woman. You are calling out words that "could mean something else" if you look at it through a microscope. Do you really think that's what they meant when the wrote this?
Well, one way is by reading in the hebrew and not in a translation, but your question can be applied to your position -- how do YOU know? You say that they all "say the same thing" but they don't. The Hebrew, by the way, is not vague and one does not need a microscope to see that. You introduced the "Many young woman could be virgins" so the looking through a microscope to explore possibilities is yours.

Again, doesn't have to specify what creature. The bible is talking about great creatures of the sea. Doesn't have to be specified. 
Your claim was that all the versions say the same thing, that they "don't mean anything different" so you are saying that "great whales" and "dragons" mean the same thing. Is that an accurate restatement of your position?
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
Exactly my point. How is he going to condemn the Bible when he doesn't even understand it. I am have, and still am studying it. I understand some, but still not all. 
So how do you know he's wrong? In other words, how do you condemn his position as incorrect when you raise the same objection? Seems like he's studied it quite a bit to me. Maybe he even speaks Hebrew, which would definitely put him closer to the orignial text than a translated manuscript that you picked on personal preference. A preference, by the way, which rests largely on the words that you are reading, and not on accuracy. 
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
As I stated. Not true accounts per se.


So what "fish" is likely to swallow a Man.


And flood events occur all the time.


And exaggerated tales are the consequence.


There are so many logical reasons why the Noah's Ark story cannot be true.


So a bloke in a boat,

Rescued a goat,

Or two,

On a particularly wet day.


And on the same day,

A bloke out swimming,

Encountered,

A Basking Shark.

What a lark.


And the rest is history.



Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
@YouFound_Lxam
@YouFound_Lxam.  No, it doesn't -- take one of the old ones:

kjv
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin .shall< conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

and take one of the new ones:

gnt
Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who   is  < pregnant will have a son and will name him 'Immanuel.'

Are you telling me you don't see a difference?

There is a clear difference. He just doesn't want to admit  the fact that both  of those verses are not speaking of an event 700 years into the future but is to happen in Ahaz's own life time. Rosi. 

And only the most ignorant will deny it.


rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Yeah, I've never quite understood how (not why...the why, I get) translators get from the Hebrew to the future tense in the English

The Hebrew is clear
הִנֵּ֣ה הָעַלְמָ֗ה הָרָה֙

behold,
the young woman
pregnant

Note that the Hebrew word in this verse, harah, serves as a predicate adjective, not a verb. In Hebrew, there is no "to-be" word for the present tense. If the verse intended past or future, there would be a to-be word inserted to clarify that the verse is NOT in the present tense. But the verse has no such word, so it is in the present.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
God is not defined by logic. He created logic, but he is not imprisoned by it.
The entire point of debating your position is to demonstrate that your beliefs can withstand rational scrutiny. 

Belief in a being, or in anything that is not bound by the laws of logic make such belief irrational by definition and as such should be dismissed out of hand.



Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
What come first. Joining a group ( the christians )    orrrrrr Believing in a god thing ?

These two things have something to do with each other.  ( im almost sure of it. ) 

Theists are brilliant religious group pickers.   if we went around the room everyone would be in the correct group. 

With close to like a whole dozen different religions. You picked well. 

 
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@rosends
So how do you know he's wrong? In other words, how do you condemn his position as incorrect when you raise the same objection? Seems like he's studied it quite a bit to me. Maybe he even speaks Hebrew, which would definitely put him closer to the orignial text than a translated manuscript that you picked on personal preference. A preference, by the way, which rests largely on the words that you are reading, and not on accuracy. 
It's the same teachings and words, whether you want to believe it or not. 

Well, one way is by reading in the hebrew and not in a translation, but your question can be applied to your position -- how do YOU know? You say that they all "say the same thing" but they don't. The Hebrew, by the way, is not vague and one does not need a microscope to see that. You introduced the "Many young woman could be virgins" so the looking through a microscope to explore possibilities is yours.
I know because I listen to God. Whether you want to believe it or not, I do. 
I read the Bible every day, and know what it means. Some scriptures' even scholars don't understand though, so I have yet to understand if some verses represent something, or are a metaphor for other things. 

Your claim was that all the versions say the same thing, that they "don't mean anything different" so you are saying that "great whales" and "dragons" mean the same thing. Is that an accurate restatement of your position?
Nope, this verse was to represent great creatures of the sea. Not the same creatures. Tell me, is the bible falsified for naming two different creatures in different translations? It has the same message, and both existed. 
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@zedvictor4
As I stated. Not true accounts per se.


So what "fish" is likely to swallow a Man.


And flood events occur all the time.


And exaggerated tales are the consequence.


There are so many logical reasons why the Noah's Ark story cannot be true.


So a bloke in a boat,

Rescued a goat,

Or two,

On a particularly wet day.


And on the same day,

A bloke out swimming,

Encountered,

A Basking Shark.

What a lark.


And the rest is history.


You obviously have not read the bible, and the event I am referring too, was recorded as a worldwide disaster caused by water. 


rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
The problem is with translations. The bible isn't falsified when a translation is falsified, but the student should investigate how and why a translator made a particular choice when other translators chose differently. If one does not read ALL translations, one might think that the verse is only talking about dragons. Is it? You say it is talking about "great creatures of the sea" (which would not include dragons). How do you get to that generalization from the Hebrew?
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Stephen
There is a clear difference. He just doesn't want to admit  the fact that both  of those verses are not speaking of an event 700 years into the future but is to happen in Ahaz's own life time. Rosi. 

And only the most ignorant will deny it.

Your ignorant for taking a word and taking it out of context. 

Was mary pregnant? Yes
Was mary a virgin? Yes
Did mary give birth? Yes

It doesn't matter in what scripture it was stated. The same story goes for all of the versions of the bible.

How are you all this incompetent. I thought I was debating adults, not incoherent children. 
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Double_R
The entire point of debating your position is to demonstrate that your beliefs can withstand rational scrutiny. 

Belief in a being, or in anything that is not bound by the laws of logic make such belief irrational by definition and as such should be dismissed out of hand.
This is not the point of this forem. I'm not debating proof for God. I am debating what Christianity means and is. 
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@rosends
The problem is with translations. The bible isn't falsified when a translation is falsified, but the student should investigate how and why a translator made a particular choice when other translators chose differently. If one does not read ALL translations, one might think that the verse is only talking about dragons. Is it? You say it is talking about "great creatures of the sea" (which would not include dragons). How do you get to that generalization from the Hebrew?
If you look at the contexts and not simply just scripture, you will see that portion of the bible was talking about life, and the wonders of life of the sea, and land.
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
I'm just getting it. 

The parts ( passages  in the bible that start with like a name and that followed  by two sets of numbers. Scriptures is it.
Is that part like ummmmmm, like god saying it ? 
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,669
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@RationalMadman
I have access to the Bible sure, not everyone does, especially in Islamic nations. They only are allowed to read it as children by acknowledging it is a semi fictional prequel and only Jesus and Mary are the real characters.
Nonsense,  Islam is a religion of prophets and the four primary prophets of the faith are Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad, thier belief is that Allah gave the Scrolls to Abraham,  the Torah to Moses, the Gospels to Jesus, and the Quran to Muhammad.

They don't believe the Bible is infallible, but most Christians don't either.   There are clearly doctrinal disagreements between Islam and Christianity, as there are doctrinal differences among the 30,000+ denominations of Christianity, but it is absurd to claim "only Jesus and Mary are the real characters" or that Muslims "only are allowed to read it as children by acknowledging it is a semi fictional prequel", that is completely made up nonsense.
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
I don’t think you can have a specific “real Christianity” as Christian beliefs may and do vary, and as belief creates its own reality then that reality will change depending on your belief.
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Elliott
I don’t think you can have a specific “real Christianity” as Christian beliefs may and do vary, and as belief creates its own reality then that reality will change depending on your belief.
Christianity explains the reality. 


RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Sidewalker
Enlighten us more how much you know about Islam.

As for me, I know full well that they think the disciples are partly lied about and that the Bible is unreliable scripture. They believe they existed, such as Timothy and Matthew, but they do not believe the disciples ever got to write the Bible and instead that their teachings and words were changed over time severely, including event narrations.

Jesus was a somewhat deluded prophet in their eyes who was tricked by others to assume he was the chosen one when really Muhammad would be. Jesus was not supernatural, meaning the curing of the blind man and sharing of the bread had to be lies along with a lot of the rest of the Bible.
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
If you look at the contexts and not simply just scripture, you will see that portion of the bible was talking about life, and the wonders of life of the sea, and land.
So you don't focus on the details and just look at the "big picture" and general notions?
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
Christianity explains the reality. 
Which version, beliefs vary?
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@rosends
So you don't focus on the details and just look at the "big picture" and general notions?
What is the big picture? For example the doctrine of the Trinity is central to the belief of many Christen faiths and yet there are some Christian faiths that don’t believe in that doctrine.
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Elliott
I don't know. I'm just surmising from the comment he made that, "If you look at the contexts and not simply just scripture, you will see that portion of the bible was talking about life, and the wonders of life of the sea, and land."
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@rosends
So you don't focus on the details and just look at the "big picture" and general notions?
I look at the details, but details like that of what you are bringing up, is basic common knowledge. You are conflating basic common knowledge for an argument.
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Elliott
Which version, beliefs vary?
There is no version of reality. There is one reality. Some just choose to not see it. 
Not gonna try to force people to see it though. It's there choice. 
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
He's asking which version OF CHRISTIANITY, not reality. 
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@ludofl3x
He's asking which version OF CHRISTIANITY, not reality. 
There are no versions of Christianity, the denominations are just different ways of "viewing God"
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@YouFound_Lxam
There is no version of reality. There is one reality. Some just choose to not see it. 
Not gonna try to force people to see it though. It's there choice. 
Then can you establish that what you perceive to be reality is in fact real. And perception isn’t a choice as you can’t choose to believe something you perceive to be false.
YouFound_Lxam
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,182
3
4
7
YouFound_Lxam's avatar
YouFound_Lxam
3
4
7
-->
@Elliott
Then can you establish that what you perceive to be reality is in fact real. And perception isn’t a choice as you can’t choose to believe something you perceive to be false.
Well, perception is different than reality. 

It's obvious that people can choose not to perceive reality in truth, the fact that there is one reality, doesn't mean people can't choose to perceive it falsely. 
BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,145
3
3
7
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
BrotherD.Thomas
3
3
7
-->
@YouFound_Lxam

.
YouFound_Lxam,

He's asking which version OF CHRISTIANITY, not reality. 
YOUR QUOTE TO THE STATEMENT ABOVE: "There are no versions of Christianity, the denominations are just different ways of "viewing God"

By the mere fact that the DIVISIONS of Christianity view the serial killer Jesus as God in different ways, are in fact, versions of the faith!

Case in point, whatever DIVISION of Christianity you are, why aren't you another DIVISION of the faith? GET IT?

.