Can Morality Be Objective Without God?

Author: MagicAintReal

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@secularmerlin
A reason may be concrete (A boulder is falling so I have reason to move) or abstract/nonmaterial (I am of the subjective opinion that a story is sad so I have reason to cry) in both cases cause and effect is demonstrably taking place. My point in my last post to you is that it doesn't matter if a reason is concrete or abstract.
What happened is reading the story upped your seratonin levels etc so you felt sad and produced tears.  
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@Fallaneze
Mental causation.
"The phenomenon of mental causation, as may be apparent, is thoroughly commonplace and ubiquitous. But this is not the only reason why it is significant. It is absolutely fundamental to our concept of actions performed intentionally (as opposed to involuntarily), which, in turn, is central to those of agency, free will, and moral responsibility. An action, as philosophers use the term, is not a mere bodily motion like involuntarily blinking one's eyes. It is something one does intentionally, as when one winks to grab someone's attention. The distinction between a mere bodily movement and an action hinges on the possibility of mental causation, since actions have mental states, such as intentions, as direct causes. This distinction, in turn, is critical for gauging moral responsibility, since we attribute or withhold judgments of moral responsibility depending upon whether the agent acted intentionally."
Intentionality is CAUSED.

Mental causation is CAUSED.

If it is CAUSED it is not FREE.

If it is UNCAUSED, it is RANDOM.
secularmerlin
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maybe 'Dualium' is what allows brains to manifest consciousness and real free will :(
That pushes us further down the chain of proof it doesn't resolve anything. Now we have moved from having to demonstrate freewill to having to demonstrate dualism and freewill.
(EITHER) ghosts, spirits, souls, and angels and gods act based on previous influences (OR) they don't.

(IFF) ghosts, spirits, souls, and angels and gods act on previous influences, (THEN) they are part of the causal chain.

(IFF) ghosts, spirits, souls, and angels and gods do not act on previous influences, (THEN) they act randomly.

So called "dualism" solves none of the fundamental logical problems with free-will.
And also this.
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@keithprosser
What happened is reading the story upped your seratonin levels etc so you felt sad and produced tears.   

So cause and effect then.
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@secularmerlin
How do we demonstrate the ability to have chosen otherwise? We cannot go back in time and choose again. Even if we could our knowledge of the future outcome would be a potential cause and the test would be inconclusive. If You have a method of testing your hypothesis please present it.
Good example.
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@keithprosser
The point is, though I may not have a ready example that is probably nonphysical/concrete, even if there was one it would still be a cause. This would demonstrate cause and effect not freewill.
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@disgusted
Morality is completely subjective.
You and Kieth both have struck the nail squarely{ perpendicular to surface } on its head.



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@3RU7AL
Intentionality is CAUSED. Mental causation is CAUSED. If it is CAUSED it is not FREE.If it is UNCAUSED, it is RANDOM.

Causation has led to me illusion of chooing not to argue with this rational, logical common sense by Bru7.

4 contains 3, 2 and 1 but does it contain 0{ zero }. Zero is a non-counting number unlike 1, 2 and 3.


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@3RU7AL
i' a devils advocate here, ok?

The materialist picture is thebrain is firstly caused into a physical state that means 'I want tea not coffee'.  In turn that causes the next physical brain state, which means 'I choose coffee'.  

The dualist does not deny the succession of physical brain states is entirely causal.  However dualism holds that physical brain states do not have mental meanings such as desires or choices.   The mental resides in the dualistic element, ie in the 'dualium', or as it usually called the 'soul' or 'self'.
 
TwoMan
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Free will does not violate cause and effect.
The word "free" is not included in the definition of free will.
It is the ability to make a choice, unimpeded.

Does the human brain have the ability to make a rational choice? Yes.
The reasons why a brain makes a choice are irrelevant.
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@secularmerlin
Mental causation is compatible with free will so we're not arguing whether cause and effect is violated, we're arguing about whether people have free will. The impossibility of proving a negative has been debunked all over the internet. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim or the person who is arguing against the status quo. Anyone who takes a philosophical viewpoint on anything requires rational justification of that position.

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@keithprosser
i' a devils advocate here, ok?
The materialist picture is thebrain is firstly caused into a physical state that means 'I want tea not coffee'.  In turn that causes the next physical brain state, which means 'I choose coffee'.   
The dualist does not deny the succession of physical brain states is entirely causal.  However dualism holds that physical brain states do not have mental meanings such as desires or choices.   The mental resides in the dualistic element, ie in the 'dualium', or as it usually called the 'soul' or 'self'.
I understand.

But your "ghost in the shell" is either caused or random.

If your body is a "ghost puppet", the ghost is still either part of a causal chain that stretches back to wherever ghosts come from, or it acts randomly.

Even the ghost cannot have "free-will".  Free-will is a logically incoherent concept.
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@Fallaneze
Anyone who takes a philosophical viewpoint on anything requires rational justification of that position.
This includes people who think free-will is a valid concept.

Please explicitly define free-will.

What exactly is free-will supposed to be free from?
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@Fallaneze
If we agree that cause and effect is taking place then cause and effect doesn't need to be demonstrated but anything more would need to be demonstrated.
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@TwoMan
@Fallaneze
Free will does not violate cause and effect.
The word "free" is not included in the definition of free will.
It is the ability to make a choice, unimpeded.
Does the human brain have the ability to make a rational choice? Yes.
The reasons why a brain makes a choice are irrelevant.
TwoMan, do you believe that insects and dogs and robots have free-will, according to this definition?

Fallaneze, do you believe that only adult humans are capable of free-will?
TwoMan
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@3RU7AL
What exactly is free-will supposed to be free from?
Free from impediment.
Free will does not violate cause and effect.
The word "free" is not included in the definition of free will.
It is the ability to make a choice, unimpeded.

Does the human brain have the ability to make a rational choice? Yes.
The reasons why a brain makes a choice are irrelevant.

TwoMan
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@3RU7AL
TwoMan, do you believe that insects and dogs and robots have free-will, according to this definition?
By the definition "The ability to make a choice, unimpeded" then yes. I wouldn't say it is a rational choice though.

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@TwoMan
By the definition "The ability to make a choice, unimpeded" then yes. I wouldn't say it is a rational choice though.
Is a "rational choice" exclusive to adult humans?
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@TwoMan
A rational choice is not 'free'!  If you insist that a choice be rational it is constrained to be the logical consequence of its inputs.
If I have a choice etween tea and coffee there is usually no rationl reson to choose one nd not the other - it is the whim of the moment.

But if the tea is £1 and the coffee is £2 and i only have  £1 in my pocket my rational choice is forced, not free.
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@3RU7AL
Is a "rational choice" exclusive to adult humans?
I am unqualified to say at what age a choice becomes rational. Also, I would not say that all people are capable of making a rational choice or that all choices fall under the definition of free will.

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@keithprosser
A rational choice is not 'free'!
I never said it was. I specifically said that the word "free" is not included in the definition of free will. It is merely the ability to make a choice, unimpeded.

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@secularmerlin
Free will is compatible with cause and effect (i.e. mental causation). So both positions, determinism and free will, have no default assumptions, other than determinism having things not be the way they seem.
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@Fallaneze
Free will is compatible with cause and effect...
So we agree.

(IFF) free-will is compatible with cause and effect (THEN) free-will is indistinguishable from indeterminism.

If free-will is defined as "rational choice" then why bother complicating things with two different terms for exactly the same thing?

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@3RU7AL
If free-will is defined as "rational choice" then why bother complicating things with two different terms for exactly the same thing?
Free will and indeterminism describe two different things.

Free will : The ability to make a choice, unimpeded.
Indeterminism : the doctrine that not all events are wholly determined by antecedent causes.
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@3RU7AL
If your body is a "ghost puppet", the ghost is still either part of a causal chain that stretches back to wherever ghosts come from, or it acts randomly.
The dualist says that istrue only for regular matter, not for soul-stuff.
Dont worry - i've finished defending dualism for now!

Fallaneze
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Randomly determined does not mean non-causually determined.
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@keithprosser
The dualist says that istrue only for regular matter, not for soul-stuff. 
So soul-stuff is non-causal?
Fallaneze
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Holding the position that determinism is true cannot be rational because the mindless forces that installed that position in your brain are not rational.

keithprosser
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@Fallaneze
Randomly determined does not mean non-causually determined.
i don't care what it doesn't mean!  What does it mean??

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@Fallaneze
Randomly determined does not mean non-causually determined.
An uncaused event is logically indistinguishable from a random event.

What, pray tell, "causes" a random event?