Why and how did life come about?

Author: Tradesecret

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Tradesecret
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@Best.Korea
Is this another one of those
"if I dont know the answer, then God is the answer"?
Nope, the god of the gaps theory is a strawman argument pushed by people like Dawkins. No self respecting Christian would use such a lame argument. Mind you - it certainly entertains a lot of pieces of paper. 
Sidewalker
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@Tradesecret
As someone who is not an evolutionist
I'll presume this position is based on a contrived presumption that the theory of evolution in some way contradicts Christian faith, but that just isn't true.

What you are contending requires a direct refutation of the most general principles of most of our physical and biological sciences. As a unifying theory of biology, evolution holds true. Its mechanisms are by no means completely understood and it does not in any way eliminate the mystery of life, question the existence of God, or bring into doubt any of the basic tenets of Christianity.

But it is absolutely central to science.

The theory of evolution is the great unifying principle of biology, as powerful a model to biology as Newton's model was to physics. The conceptual framework of the theory of evolution makes sense of a profoundly wide range of scientific facts and it does it in a magnificent and comprehensive way. It provides a principle of unity, a framework by which science can attempt to explain, to unify, and to order, a vast amount of disparate data into a consistent whole providing tremendous coherence and clarity. To deny evolution you must bring into question the entire interwoven fabric of scientific research.

Flat out denial of the theory of Evolution requires the concomitant denial of an astounding range of scientific disciplines, not just the disciplines of geology, paleontology, archeology, radiometric dating, genetics, and zoology but also such fundamental disciplines as physics, astronomy, astrophysics, chemistry, biochemistry, geophysics, biology, botany, microbiology, and meteorology, and many others. Because of the interrelated aspect of the sciences, you can't really propose that the theory evolution is false without being fundamentally anti-scientific. You can contend that the theory of evolution is incomplete, nobody claims it is complete. If you could in fact, deny the theory of evolution, it would, in effect, unravel the world of science.

And I just don't see why anyone would want to do that. I simply do not see evolution challenging any of the basic tenets of Christianity; unfortunately, I can't say the same thing about your contention here. In order to support the belief that evolution is false, you accordingly have to postulate a deceptive God, don't you?

You would need to propose a God who would create Man with a rational mind, a sense of wonder, and seeking intellect, while creating a universe with the false appearance of tremendous age with the overwhelming evidence of "evolution" occurring in creation as a trick or something. This concept of a deceptive God is very hard to accept, it strikes me as a much greater challenge to Christianity than any damage the concept of evolution could ever hope to do.


Stephen
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@Sidewalker
This concept of a deceptive God is very hard to accept, it strikes me as a much greater challenge to Christianity than any damage the concept of evolution could ever hope to do.

 Yep. He is an absolute diamond for shooting himself in the foot. I am amazed he has any toes left.
Good post, bye the way.
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@Sidewalker
....You would need to propose a God who would create Man with a rational mind, a sense of wonder, and seeking intellect, while creating a universe....

Woman  { Xx }  came before man { Xy }, if such creation ever occurred. This is complex-to-simple evolution.

Any man before woman ---simple-to-complex--- is non-sensical.  y does not evolve into X. 

Simple-to-complex is a more frustrating evolutionary process, and nature likes to take the path of least resistance ex Gravity takes the path of least resistance. 

The proof is in the pudding, however, some pudding is more superficial than others. 

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@Sidewalker
True

Creative event followed by a lengthy process of material evolution.

Sort of designed, in so much as, how things happen is how things will happen.

Creative event may require an initiator.

But the initiator is extremely unlikely to have been the Dad of a Middle Eastern Bloke.

Or any other similar archaic metaphor, for that matter.
BrotherD.Thomas
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MISS TRADESECRET'S QUOTE THAT SPITS IN JESUS' FACE AS GOD!:  "I was coming at this from a religious perspective - and wanted to know some of the alternate views."

Miss Tradesecret's thread will be her coming out party in showing that SHE IS NOT A TRUE CHRISTIAN!  What she fails to comprehend as a mere Pseudo-Christian, is the FACT that her "religious perspective" has to be the foundation of Jesus creating EVERYTHING in the contradicting creation narratives in Genesis 1 and 2 approximately 6000 years ago, therefore, there is absolutely no need for her to seek out alternate views like this Bible fool is looking for, period!


NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN WOMAN LIKE "MISS TRADESECRET" THAT IS TELLING JESUS THAT SHE QUESTIONS HIS CREATION OF EVERYTHING, WILL BE ...?




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@Stephen


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Stephen,

As if we haven’t seen Miss Tradesecret remove one foot to insert the other ad infinitum, then can you believe that she now questions Jesus as God in creating EVERYTHING approximately 6000 years ago in the contradicting Genesis 1 and 2  narratives, by her unchristian like remarks in her initial post going directly against Jesus creation?!

When does Miss Tradesecret’s Bible stupidity ever stop? As I have pointed out, she is NOT a true Christian, and at best, she is just a run-of-the-mill dumbfounded Bible stupid pseudo-christian!

As if Miss Tradesecret’s ADMITTED Sexual Deviancy with family members, that goes against Jesus' doctrine, wasn’t embarrassing enough, as Jesus and I have proven beyond any doubt in the link below, then she creates a thread showing that she does not accept Jesus’ creation of EVERYTHING in Genesis 1 and 2 which is outright BLASPHEME!

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Stephen
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@BrotherD.Thomas
When does Miss Tradesecret’s Bible stupidity ever stop?

Has it ever sopped? 
After I said this was another backdoor ploy to heap the Burden of Proof onto the atheist #18 &#28 and questioned if this topic was in the correct sub-forum. #10  Tradesecret has had to admit that  this was a "religious " topic because she says;

Tradesecret wrote: "I was coming at this from a religious perspective. I anticipate that I will engage with these in due course".#30
BS
Although she says in her OP ;
Tradsecret wrote:   
 [A]  "I am not asking about why or how non-life came into being  - we can assume that for the sake of the discussion.
[B]  I am asking about the evolution from non-life to life.  " 

No mention there about god the creator of all things. Jesus or Religion.

 I  suggested the same on this thread by YouFound_Lxam here> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/8271-god-exists-and-i-can-prove-it?page=1&post_number=13

Do you remember what I said here Brother D? 

"clones"

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@Stephen
@YouFound_Lxam


Stephen,

Relating to your post #38 regarding this Religion Forums #1 Bible stupid fool, Miss Tradesecret, we have seen this before where Miss Tradesecret steps in the proverbial poo all the time upon the topic in question, and then takes a long time in trying to wipe her shoes off because of said poo, with excuses upon excuses, upon excuses, until she is blue in the face for trying to cover up her continued missteps!  LOL!


Relating to the ever so Biblically stupid YouFound_Lxam, he is a NO-SHOW in his own thread because I caught him in blatant LIES in the following links, 

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/8271-god-exists-and-i-can-prove-it?page=17&post_number=414
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/8271-god-exists-and-i-can-prove-it?page=17&post_number=418
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/8271-god-exists-and-i-can-prove-it?page=17&post_number=419

As shown in the links above, this Bible inept fool said that he already addressed my Matthew 15: 3-4 passage content, BUT, he has yet to prove his alleged fact, and has RAN AWAY from this passage for THREE DAYS NOW, where he addressed other questions to him in the meantime!  With YouFound_Lxam's  runaway from biblical axioms, it reminds me of Miss Tradesecret doing the same ungodly action of being a Bible runaway too!


Can you believe the two Bible fools Miss Tradesecret and YouFound_Lxam, as if they were the same person in being so Bible dumbfounded!  LOL!

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Stephen
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Can you believe the two Bible fools Miss Tradesecret and YouFound_Lxam, as if they were the same person in being so Bible dumbfounded!  


I am interested in seeing how he copes with those here that he has clearly underestimated and do know what they are talking about in this particular field.
. But I predict another dereliction.
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@Stephen

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Stephen,

I don’t know about you, but I find it a true relief that the Bible void Miss Tradesecret has blocked us to prevent us to personally notifying her and showing her the fact of her Bible stupidity in her posts!  

BUT, as easily shown, we still show that her Bible ineptness is still there without her now posting back to us with her nonsensical EXCUSES that we had to wade through to get to the main topic of her being Bible dumbfounded.

As I being the ONLY True Christian upon this Religion Forum, I know that Jesus had a lot to do with Miss Tradesecret basically in making her to STFU in not being able to address Stephen and myself's posts anymore because He has had it with her making a fool of herself when doing so, as the passage below so states:  

“When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? (Amos 3:6)


THANK YOU JESUS!

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@Sidewalker


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Sidewalker,

YOUR HYPOCRITICAL QUOTE RELATIVE TO EVOLUTION AND JESUS AS GOD'S CREATION: "I'll presume this position is based on a contrived presumption that the theory of evolution in some way contradicts Christian faith, but that just isn't true. .......  question the existence of God, or bring into doubt any of the basic tenets of Christianity."

HUH?  You explicitly say that evolution does not contradict the Christian faith nor the basic tenets of Christianity?!!!

As I remember, EVILution shows that man changes in the characteristics of his species over thousands of generations, correct? 

Therefore, how can you posit that EVILution, as called by true Christians like myself,  does not contradict the Christian faith where our serial  killer Jesus as God, created Adam in His own image at the onset by taking dust from the ground to create him! (Genesis 2:7)  This is of course barring the fact that our Jesus as God in the beginning had a penis too.

Furthermore, the basic tenets of Christianity is the biblical axiom that the earth as it is today, the solar system, the entire universe, birds, fish, animals, and man and woman, and EVERYTHING ELSE, were created by Jesus as God at approximately 6000 years ago as I have shown FLRW in the following link:
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/8366/post-links/361985

Therefore, for you to proffer that the basic tenets of Christianity are not contradicted in your post, then you have to accept that creation of ALL KNOWN THINGS were created 6000 years ago by Jesus as God!  Do you?

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zedvictor4
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Now hang on Bro.

Wasn't Jesus born 2022 years ago on Christmas day in a manger?

I'm going to his party next week.

I've got a sweater with reindeer on and a Santa hat, like what they wore in Bethlehem.
Stephen
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@zedvictor4
Wasn't Jesus born 2022 years ago on Christmas day in a manger?

 Give or take 2022 years, Vic , lad.

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@Stephen
Give or take 3978 according to Bro D.
Stephen
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@zedvictor4
Give or take 3978 according to Bro D.

Ah, well. The Brother is including Jesus ' time before he was Jesus.

I thought you was talking about from the time of shepherds had a light shined on them in the bleak mid winter while they was freezing to death and snuggled up (that's what it was called then) with their woolly four legged charges to keep warm an all that.
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@Stephen
Yep, snuggling up to sheep is a Welsh thing.

But let's make it clear I only live here.

Wasn't born and raised here.

Mrs Zed is snuggly enough for me.


That was probably Constable Jones shining the light.


And how bleak do winters get in Bethlehem?
Stephen
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@zedvictor4
And how bleak do winters get in Bethlehem?

Well the temperatures would drop rapid  after sundown, Vic.  below freezing.  It was December ya know. And they weren't in town they were out on the hills "snuggling".
Tradesecret
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@Sidewalker
As someone who is not an evolutionist
I'll presume this position is based on a contrived presumption that the theory of evolution in some way contradicts Christian faith, but that just isn't true. 
Well I guess it depends on what you think is the Christian Faith.  And it also depends upon what evolution is as well. Many of the different sciences you lay out below are not dependent upon evolution in the manner by which Darwin posited it.  Although you state it is a unifying theory - you are simply incorrect. 

Perhaps however before we continue that aspect of our discussion, you might provide a definition of what you think the Christian Faith is and also what you define as the theory of evolution.  I suspect that your presumption of contrived presumption won't stack up. Still, I will await you definitions to see whether they match or not. 

What you are contending requires a direct refutation of the most general principles of most of our physical and biological sciences. As a unifying theory of biology, evolution holds true. Its mechanisms are by no means completely understood and it does not in any way eliminate the mystery of life, question the existence of God, or bring into doubt any of the basic tenets of Christianity.
Not at all. It really is going to depend upon how broad or narrow your provided definition of the theory of evolution is going to be.  We need to see what you think are the basic tenets of Christianity are before we can draw such a conclusion. 


But it is absolutely central to science.

Totally disagree. I perform scientific experiments of a sort everyday without using or applying evolution. 


The theory of evolution is the great unifying principle of biology, as powerful a model to biology as Newton's model was to physics. The conceptual framework of the theory of evolution makes sense of a profoundly wide range of scientific facts and it does it in a magnificent and comprehensive way. It provides a principle of unity, a framework by which science can attempt to explain, to unify, and to order, a vast amount of disparate data into a consistent whole providing tremendous coherence and clarity. To deny evolution you must bring into question the entire interwoven fabric of scientific research.
Again we are going to have to see how broad or narrow your definition of evolution is. Change is not evolution. Adaption is not evolution. The maturing process is not evolution. Yes, I know evolutionists consider that these are part and parcel of evolution. Yet those opposed to evolution in its narrow definition believe that such things as change and adaption and the maturing process are able to be satisfactorily explained without the theory of evolution. 

Flat out denial of the theory of Evolution requires the concomitant denial of an astounding range of scientific disciplines, not just the disciplines of geology, paleontology, archeology, radiometric dating, genetics, and zoology but also such fundamental disciplines as physics, astronomy, astrophysics, chemistry, biochemistry, geophysics, biology, botany, microbiology, and meteorology, and many others. Because of the interrelated aspect of the sciences, you can't really propose that the theory evolution is false without being fundamentally anti-scientific. You can contend that the theory of evolution is incomplete, nobody claims it is complete. If you could in fact, deny the theory of evolution, it would, in effect, unravel the world of science.
It appears that you take a very broad definition of evolution.  Applying it to all sciences.  I never said the theory of evolution is non-scientific in this thread. I said I am not an evolutionists.  I can certainly propose that evolution defined narrowly is not related to any other aspect of science.  I disagree that the world of science is held together by evolution. That would be an atheistic position. And it couldn't be a religious one held by someone who holds to the tenets of Christianity. 


And I just don't see why anyone would want to do that. I simply do not see evolution challenging any of the basic tenets of Christianity; unfortunately, I can't say the same thing about your contention here. In order to support the belief that evolution is false, you accordingly have to postulate a deceptive God, don't you?
Yes, you have said that and are now repeating yourself.  At least in the first part of that paragraph. Your final sentence presumes much without any evidence to support the same. Let's see what your definitions are and then perhaps we might be able to discuss this properly. 


You would need to propose a God who would create Man with a rational mind, a sense of wonder, and seeking intellect, while creating a universe with the false appearance of tremendous age with the overwhelming evidence of "evolution" occurring in creation as a trick or something. This concept of a deceptive God is very hard to accept, it strikes me as a much greater challenge to Christianity than any damage the concept of evolution could ever hope to do.

I disagree.  There is are many different topics that could be explored in that paragraph.  But let's start by you - defining and providing the basis of Christianity - and for the theory of definition and then we can go from there. Thanks by the way for your response.  


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The circumstances for abiogenesis were enabled. 
YouFound_Lxam
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@Bones
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..." One species of fungi, Schizophyllum commune, really shines when it comes to gender diversity. The white, fan-shaped mushroom has more than 23,000 different sexual identities, a result of widespread differentiation in the genetic locations that govern its sexual behavior....

.....Fungi, by contrast, keep it casual. To mate, all a fungus has to do is bump up against another member of its species and let their cells fuse together. S. commune uses a special kind of structure called a clamp connection to do this, and it allows them to exchange their cell’s nuclei, along with the genetic information inside. This keeps reproduction simple and means that a potentially huge number of sexes is possible — other fungi species have dozens or more, though S. commune is certainly an outlier. "....

..." Fungal groups can be related by cell wall composition (i.e., presence of both chitin and alpha-1,3 and alpha-1,6-glucan), organization of tryptophan enzymes, and synthesis of lysine (i.e., by the aminoadipic acid pathway). ......

....Kingdom Fungi, one of the oldest and largest groups of living organisms, is a monophyletic group, meaning that all modern fungi can be traced back to a single ancestral organism. This ancestral organism diverged from a common ancestor with the animals about 800 million to 900 million years ago. Today many organisms, particularly among the phycomycetes and slime molds, are no longer considered to be true fungi, even though mycologists might study them "...
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@YouFound_Lxam
I'd argue,
Modern day abiogenesis theory isn't about flies or bacteria forming over  a short time from meat and no fly egg or bacteria introduction.

Rather it's, many steps, much time, requirements, materials, conditions.
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@Tradesecret
Aliens. We were out here by aliens as an experiment to see how we would evolve. They even visited us over time to even help a little here and there along the way, then they stopped and just became observers. 

Get the book Fingerprints of the Gods by Graham Hancock, for starters. Good read. There are more investigative journalists and scholars who have put forth the same theory. Far more plausible than the fictional deity written of in the Bible. 
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@Tradesecret
Evolution is the development of matter from start to finish.

Darwin was only concerned with one bit.

But, out of species evolved intellect, science and unscientific pseudo hypotheses, namely theism.

And out of science came real answers.

And out of intellect and science evolved technology.

And so on.

Refer to this process as GOD if you like.

But someone who fucks a virgin and gets her pregnant is a philanderer or a rapist.

So if you want to worship a rapist. Well, that's your choice.
Stephen
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@Sidewalker
Tradesecrte wrote:

(1) I will await you definitions to see whether they match or not. 

(2) It really is going to depend upon how broad or narrow your provided definition of the theory of evolution is going to be.

(3) for the theory of definition and then we can go from there.

(4 )Let's see what your definitions are and then perhaps we might be able to discuss this properly. 

(6) Again we are going to have to see how broad or narrow your definition of evolution is.

(7) for the theory of definition and then we can go from there.

(8) But let's start by you - defining and providing the basis of Christianity
8 responses in one post and not a single attempt to address a single valid point  that you have put forward in your in depth and detailed post#32 , Sidewalker. And all asking you the same thing. -ie  asking for proof.

I will remind you, if I may?  ,Tradesecret doesn't accept definitions "from some dictionary"  or  "from some obscure website from the other side of the world".

It is as I predicted here above.  











Stephen
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@TWS1405_2
There are more investigative journalists and scholars who have put forth the same theory. Far more plausible than the fictional deity written of in the Bible.
 
You might enjoy these, TW.

Zecharia Sitchin

When Time Began

The Stairway to Heaven

The End of Days

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@Tradesecret
In the existence that exists, why did the non-life evolve to a life form?  Does this imply that non-life forms have the ability to be dissatisfied? Or the capacity to want to exist forever? Moreover, how did it come about? Was it intentional, under the guise of the survival of the fittest - although I am not sure how that works. Or was it an accident?  
Being dissatisfied requires thought/reflection. There are countless life forms that aren’t capable of thought (viruses, microbes, etc).
Cognition is higher order. It came way later. From my understanding, it’s thought evolution started to really take off when a single celled organism called a eukaryote became multicellular by swallowing a microbe which formed the mitochondria (the power house of a cell). Before that it’s believed that RNA (a precursor to DNA, but still relevant) had a huge part to play. It’s all chemical-organic-happenstance. I’m sure there’s aliens out there asking the same questions.

I had to do a bit of research on the names. And some fact checking.

As someone who is not an evolutionist - and what little I thought I knew, seems to becoming more vague every day, so would someone please assist me here. 
We’re all in the same boat, albeit an expanding boat with an ever-expanding ocean.


Now I know that this may well do with the origin of all theories - yet - I am not asking about why or how non-life came into being - we can assume that for the sake of the discussion. I am asking about the evolution from non-life to life.   
It’s said that protobionts also known as protocells were formed around hydrothermal vents via various chemical compounds. 

Though I tried searching up if they’ve been found in nature. No results. It might be because they form rarely and/or when they do form, they get eaten up by microorganisms. But that’s just my speculation. Though scientists are close to making them in the lab.

It’s better to talk in terms of development instead of evolution when talking about the first life. It might get confusing otherwise.

Now admittedly, having a brain seems better than not having a brain. And the ability to move and communicate seems to be better than not being able to do the same, but they are both value statements. 

Thanks - in anticipation.  
And thank you.
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@zedvictor4
@Lemming
The fertized egg does a mono-polar invagination to created the three germ layers, ecto, endo, meso.

The cosmic egg ---as a torus (  )(  )----   is Gravity-Dark Energy space part of space-time and observed time { quantised } is the di-polar invagination {><)(><) to create, 0,3,6,9,15,18 etc sine-wave / \ / \ / \ / pattern, inside the space torus and the 3D, volumetric body-of-time ergo (> * <)(> * <) ergo,

bilateral consciousness/othernerss/awarness aka twoness, i.e.

Hi, I am Womb  \/\*/\*/\/............/*\/*\ Hi, I am Man

Womb being the most complex spirit and man being the 2nd most complex spirit of Universe

Positive curvature ---the outer surface womb and egg of nodal events---- is the cosmic Gravitationa { attractive/contractive/pulling-in }  fermale.

Negative curvature ---the inner surface pushing out spermazoa of nodal events--- is the cosmic Dark Energy { pushing-out } of male.

The real question is why does positive and negatively cuvred Gravity-Dark Energy invaginate.

...>>...\/\/\/\*/\*/\/\/\/\......>>....../\/*\/*\/\.......

On Earth, more complex woman  { Xx }  came before less complex man { Xy }, if such creation ever occurred. This is complex-to-simple evolution.

Any man before woman ---simple-to-complex--- is non-sensical.  y does not evolve into X. 

Simple-to-complex is a more frustrating evolutionary process, and nature likes to take the path of least resistance ex Gravity takes the path of least resistance. 

The proof is in the pudding, however, some pudding is more superficial than others. 



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@Tradesecret
In the existence that exists, why did the non-life evolve to a life form?
Why do you assume "why" is an appropriate question regarding unthinking matter?