Is this the "Democracy" we saved?

Author: Greyparrot

Posts

Total: 62
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
Mitch McConnel is one of the most despised people in the Senate, yet is set to repeat as Senate leader. 

Why?
Because it’s easy to be liked when you don’t have any power.

When you preside over a divided institution the opposing side will hate you no matter what you do and every decision you make to appease your side will inevitably piss off some portion of them that wanted you to do things differently.

The problem isn’t democracy, it’s human nature.

Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
This version aint worth saving, the one where general elections give the illusion of choice while the real deals are done with ultra rich lobbies and what is essentially a uniparty.
A failing democracy will inevitably result in autocracy. Is that what you prefer?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
A failing democracy will inevitably result in autocracy. Is that what you prefer?
We are already there. Lobbies not only get the yays or nays for legislation they support and the voters do not, they physically write the legislation for the Congress (see Obamacare as Exhibit A and Trump Era Covid legislation for Exhibit B)

You can't simply vote your way out of this problem at this point.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Double_R
A failing democracy will inevitably result in autocracy. Is that what you prefer?
  • If you didn't know that Hitler's Third Reich is Greyparrot's ideal state then you haven't been paying attention

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
The problem isn’t democracy, it’s human nature.
I really don't understand your point. If the goal of Democracy is to give power to the majority of the people, then why is power wielded by representatives of a minority of people, no matter what party?
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
Only autocrats think of power as the goal.

The stated  goals of Americans are
  • to form a more perfect Union,
  • establish Justice,
  • insure domestic Tranquility,
  • provide for the common defence,
  • promote the general Welfare, and
  • secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and
  • secure the Blessings of Liberty to our Posterity
Unlike autocratic thinking, democrats aren't looking to centralize power but to only use power when necessary, controlled by a wide variety of competing interests.


Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
to form a more perfect Union,
Democrats  call half the country traitors.

establish Justice,
Democrats create justice based on skin color.

insure domestic Tranquility,
Democrats promote the summer of love.

provide for the common defence,
Democrat Congress gives billions for the defense of other oligarchs.

promote the general Welfare, and
Democrat Congress funnels billions to Green energy lobbies while people struggle for basic goods.

secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and
secure the Blessings of Liberty to our Posterity
Democrat Congress gives lockdowns and mandates.
Also supports the sexual grooming of children.


oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
to form a more perfect Union,
Democrats  call half the country traitors.

establish Justice,
Democrats create justice based on skin color.

insure domestic Tranquility,
Democrats promote the summer of love.

provide for the common defence,
Democrat Congress gives billions for the defense of other oligarchs.

promote the general Welfare, and
Democrat Congress funnels billions to Green energy lobbies while people struggle for basic goods.

secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and
secure the Blessings of Liberty to our Posterity
Democrat Congress gives lockdowns and mandates.
Also supports the sexual grooming of children.
EXHIBIT A:  Greyparrot does not comprehend America
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,638
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@oromagi
The stated  goals of Americans are
  • to form a more perfect Union,
  • establish Justice,
  • insure domestic Tranquility,
  • provide for the common defence,
  • promote the general Welfare, and
  • secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and
  • secure the Blessings of Liberty to our Posterity
Unlike autocratic thinking, democrats aren't looking to centralize power but to only use power when necessary, controlled by a wide variety of competing interests
I puked a little in my mouth while reading that.

Its like I am reading Communist Manifestoo.

But I guess you believe in these sick perverted fairy tales written by Marxist movement.

The reason you are stupid is because you believe that majority of people make decisions based on reason. 

Majority of people are incapable of telling difference between fact and fiction, as proven by religious movement, let alone run a country and make important decisions.

The best form of government is stratocracy combined with noocracy.

There is no point in giving people welfare, or right to vote.

Vote is a waste of resources.

Majority of the people misuse their power all the time. This is because they are stupid.

Also, they are easily controlled by the media.

Majority of the people always believe what media tells them. So really, your country is run by media, not by the people.

Your democracies are economically failing. China is outproducing you by far.

Democracies are also failing in military sense, where North Korea is outproducing you by far.

Its also a shame how your democracy lost a war against afganistant and vietnam... it seems people are more willing to fight for power than for your democracy.

Hitler was democratically elected and supported by majority?

How many democratic countries have strong military?

Where is this justice you speak of? In which country it is located?

Soviet Union was first to develop ICBMs and outproduced democracies in military.

What a shame. Total incompetence.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
A failing democracy will inevitably result in autocracy. Is that what you prefer?
We are already there.
Autocracy doesn’t mean “a government heavily influenced by lobbyists”. Try again. And until you can show that the people who actually have the power to vote for and/or sign bills into law are not the individuals whom a majority of voters chose at the ballot box your entire point here is just a nonsense attempt to dress up democracy as something nefarious because people don’t vote the way you want them to.

I really don't understand your point. If the goal of Democracy is to give power to the majority of the people, then why is power wielded by representatives of a minority of people, no matter what party?
Because the people keep rewarding them by voting for them.

If more people cared about and focused on the things that concern you, things would be different. But that’s what living in a democracy means, you don’t always get your issues addressed.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
because people don’t vote the way you want them to.
This isn't about me. Polls across America have Congress below 20 percent approval. That's because When Congress passes a bill, it rewards lobbyists first and voters secondly. If the voters try to promote a candidate that votes differently than the status quo oligarchy, the lobbyists make sure that candidate never gets past the primaries.

Obamacare was written by lobbyists. PPP was written by lobbyists.

Voters have next to no representation in today's sham democracy, and the polls on Congress reflect that awareness.

It's all the illusion of choice, and people are not going to support this much longer.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
This isn't about me. Polls across America have Congress below 20 percent approval.
That’s because voters hate the institution, not the people they voted for. The only poll that matters is the ballot box.

If the voters try to promote a candidate that votes differently than the status quo oligarchy, the lobbyists make sure that candidate never gets past the primaries.
It’s not up to the lobbyists whether that candidate gets past the primaries, the voters decided that. That’s why we have primary elections.

You’re talking about influence, which is irrelevant to this discussion. The fact that the voters can often be easily manipulated is their own fault. We get the government we deserve, if you care so much about representation than kick your fellow citizens in the tail to make better choices. If that doesn’t work then guess what… that’s democracy telling you that you don’t always get what you want.

Again, until you can show that the people with actual power were not chosen by the voters at the ballot box you have no argument here. It’s just you throwing a temper tantrum because democracy doesn’t always result in what you want.

It's all the illusion of choice, and people are not going to support this much longer.
They don’t have to, they can vote out their representatives and vote for ones that will actually represent them.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
You’re talking about influence, which is irrelevant to this discussion.
Oh it is most certainly relevant. Even in New York, constituents are getting pissed off at AOC for voting with the lobbyists 100 percent of the time.

If AOC was supposed to be the apex of democratic hope and change rather than yet another candidate installed thru the primaries with powerful DC lobby influence, then the entire system is broken beyond all repair.

It would be nice to live in a country where the laws are written by elected lawmakers instead of appointed lobbyists, but that will take a revolution to reverse now.
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,669
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@SirAnonymous
He may be the most hated person in the Senate, but he is also the smartest. He's been running rings around Schumer and (previously) Reid. He's excellent at obstructing the Democratic agenda, and he was instrumental in implementing the Republican agenda during Trump's term. There are a lot of valid criticisms that can be leveled at him, but ineffective is not one of them. Also, his opponent was Rick Scott, who was in charge of making sure the Republicans took the Senate. We all know how that went.

Isn't obstructing pretty much  the opposite of effective? 

I suppose if you elect Senators to make sure there is no progress, then you can call it effective, but that would be like me making sure nobody mows my lawn and calling it effective landscaping..
SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@Sidewalker
Isn't obstructing pretty much  the opposite of effective? 
If he was obstructing his own agenda, then yes, it would be. However, if he obstructed the other party's agenda, which he did, then it is effective. Senators and Representatives are elected both to try to pass things they agree with and to stop things they disagree with. When they are in the minority, their primary job is to stop things they disagree with. So if a Senator is successfully obstructing things they disagree with, then they are doing their job and being effective.

Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,669
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@SirAnonymous
Isn't obstructing pretty much  the opposite of effective? 
If he was obstructing his own agenda, then yes, it would be. However, if he obstructed the other party's agenda, which he did, then it is effective. Senators and Representatives are elected both to try to pass things they agree with and to stop things they disagree with. When they are in the minority, their primary job is to stop things they disagree with. So if a Senator is successfully obstructing things they disagree with, then they are doing their job and being effective.
That may be true from a Trumper point of view, hating the opposition is the entire agenda,  but hey, news flash, Congress is an elected body, in Trump world, politicians are loyal to and represent Trump, but in the real world, politicians are supposed to be loyal to and represent the electorate, obstructing the will of the people isn't the job of our elected lawmakers.   Obstruction might be effective for Trump, voter suppression might be effective for Trump, but it is not effective for the people or our country.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Sidewalker
That may be true from a Trumper point of view, hating the opposition is the entire agenda
Isn't this an ironic statement? You can't possibly be using the word "Trumper" in anything other than a pejorative way in that sentence.
SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@Sidewalker
That may be true from a Trumper point of view, hating the opposition is the entire agenda,
I am not a Trumper, and I do not hate those who disagree with me. However, I do disagree with them, which is why I think their ideas shouldn't become law, because I don't think they're good ideas.
politicians are supposed to be loyal to and represent the electorate, obstructing the will of the people isn't the job of our elected lawmakers.
What do you mean by "the will of the people"? The will of the people who elected the politicians, which would be the people who want them to obstruct the other parties agenda? The will of the people as in the national popular vote? 

Let me ask you a question. Suppose the Republicans won the House, Senate, Presidency, and popular vote. If that happened (ignoring the likelihood of that happening), should the Democrats sit on their hands and let the Republicans pass anything and everything they want out of respect for "the will of the people"? Or would it be better if they obstructed and stopped the Republican agenda, because they think that the Republican agenda would hurt the country?
Obstruction might be effective for Trump, voter suppression might be effective for Trump, but it is not effective for the people or our country.
Which is more effective:
1) Bad ideas being obstructed and stopped.
2) Bad ideas becoming law.
You can pick whatever bad ideas you feel like for those two options.

I would say that it is better if bad ideas are stopped rather than made into law. I think that the country can be hurt by bad ideas becoming laws. So if bad ideas are being proposed, I think it is more effective for both the people and the country if those ideas are obstructed and stopped. Now, I'm sure we have some disagreements on which ideas are good or bad. But in the abstract, would you agree that bad ideas shouldn't become law? And if bad ideas shouldn't become law, then isn't it a good thing to stop bad ideas from becoming law?
SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@Sidewalker
Let me use an example that I think we can agree on. Suppose a new political party formed and was elected into power. Now suppose that their big idea is to legalize murder. Should that be obstructed, or should all the other parties let it happen out of respect for the will of the people?
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
If Murkowski and Warnock win their run-offs as seems likely- that will mean every single incumbent Senator who ran for re-election won.  That has never happened before.

in the House, 378 incumbents out of 435 Representatives ran for re-election.  10 lost in the primaries and another 9 lost in the general.  That is less than 5% turnover.  Although there was significant shifting to the left at the State and local levels this was the single most stable Federal election in US history- the overwhelming majority of American voters put their incumbents back in office, indicating  at least a vey high degree of satisfaction with the present government whatever the polls say.
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,669
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
That may be true from a Trumper point of view, hating the opposition is the entire agenda
Isn't this an ironic statement? You can't possibly be using the word "Trumper" in anything other than a pejorative way in that sentence.
Well duh...in any sentence, the only way to use the word Trumper is in a perjorative way .
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,669
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@SirAnonymous
I get all that, but it's a matter of serving the Party's agenda, rather than the serving the people,  a polarized country is in the politicians interest, it is not in the interest of the people.   The task at hand is for the elected officials to work together to serve the people, polarizing, obstruction, divisiveness are politician tools, but they are a betrayal of the people they are elected to serve.
SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@Sidewalker
I get all that, but it's a matter of serving the Party's agenda, rather than the serving the people,
Those are not mutually exclusive. For example, if one party passed a bill to get rid of time changes, and the other party opposed it for some inexplicable reason, that would be good for the party that passed it, but it would also be good for the country.
a polarized country is in the politicians interest, it is not in the interest of the people.   The task at hand is for the elected officials to work together to serve the people, polarizing, obstruction, divisiveness are politician tools, but they are a betrayal of the people they are elected to serve.
I agree that polarization and divisiveness are bad. I am not defending those. I am defending obstructionism.

Now, I will be the first to admit that obstructionism sometimes causes polarization and division. However, while those are a consideration, they are far from the only consideration. Let's go back to the legalizing murder example. Now, obstructing the bill to legalize murder might cause division. However, I think we would both agree that the benefits of obstructing that bill far outweigh any potential polarization caused by the obstruction. While this is an extreme case, it demonstrates an important point. Politics is all about tradeoffs. Maybe obstructing Bill X will cause division. However, Bill X might be bad enough to be worth obstructing anyway. That would be a tradeoff that we might be willing to make.

Another consideration is that there are many forms of obstructionism, and they are not all created equal. Consider some mild forms of obstructionism like voting against or filibustering a bill. The only people who will even hear about that going on are people who are already very politically engaged, and thus already very polarized. As a result, voting against a bill or filibustering it will have a negligible impact on polarization, so the benefits of obstructing bad bills by those methods will outweigh the costs every time. Personally, I will defend voting against and filibustering bills as a positive good, regardless of which side does it. I believe that a functioning opposition is a sign of a healthy democracy. *

*Note that I said "a sign" not "proof",  and "healthy" not "perfect".

Now consider a more controversial type of obstructionism. Let's use government shutdowns as an example. While most people probably wouldn't notice a short shutdown, they will notice a prolonged shutdown when some services close down and the publicity spikes. That will cause more polarization than the previous methods of obstructionism I mentioned. Consequently, there must be a good justification for doing it. In most cases, there probably won't be such a justification; however, there are times when it might be called for. In my opinion, the shutdowns in the last decade probably did not have sufficient justifications. However, it is possible that, under certain circumstances, it could be justified.

Now, I've rambled on for a while, so I should probably make a point somewhere about now. So here it is:

Obstructionism can cause polarization. However, most forms of obstructionism do not, and thus are anything but "a betrayal of the people they are elected to serve." Rather, in most cases, they are serving the people by preventing what they believe to be bad ideas from becoming law. There are also some kinds of obstructionism that do cause polarization and division. In those cases, we cannot immediately dismiss them as a betrayal. Rather, we must look at the justification for their methods. Maybe their methods are justified, and maybe they aren't. However, even in cases when their methods are not justified, we still cannot immediately dismiss them as a betrayal. Why? Because they are not justified - in our opinion. That doesn't mean our opinion is wrong. However, it does mean that the obstructionist can have a genuine disagreement with our opinion and believe that they are justified. They may be wrong, but it isn't a betrayal. Of course, sometimes it is, but we should not be too hasty to condemn without first considering the other side. After all, hastiness to condemn is rather polarizing and divisive itself.

I apologize for rambling on this long. I find this topic to be very interesting, and I wanted to have a more thorough explanation for my stance. Hopefully I didn't bore you or unintentionally trod on your toes, metaphorically speaking.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@SirAnonymous
Obstructing can also be a positive thing when 51 percent of the voters try to implement legislation that is unconstitutional.
SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@Greyparrot
Indeed.
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@oromagi
  • In addition to diplomatic support in its conflict with Russia, the U.S. provided Ukraine with US$1.5 billion in military aid from 2014 to 2019.
That seems to be in line with what I said. We have $2 billion in total aid, of which ~75% was military it would seem, excluding any other countries


  • Expect those rankings to change dramatically this year
In what sense? That we dramatically overestimated Russia’s military or that Ukraine is using our stuff to destroy a lot of what they have?


  • You are trying to disprove Ukraine a Greek vs. Persia, David vs. Goliath type underdog here.  The Greeks also had home field advantage.
They have done well (better than expected)- so far. But David had a small stone and a slingshot. Ukraine is being given some of the best weapons in the world. And we aren’t even sure if they will actually win in the long run before you compare Ukraine to David or the Greeks.

False. 
GP claimed that "American style" Democracy hurt Ukraine: "You see where that kind of Democracy landed Ukraine."
I said "Russians had more of everything except Democracy. "
"solely due to "democracy" is  entirely your invention and not a statement I would defend.
The advantages of Democracy are manifest and many fold but the statement was as much to explain Putin's failures in intelligence, moral, competance as Ukrainian cohesion.
Yes, democracy does have benefits. However, everything that you say seems to support my “invention” that it is solely due to democracy.

If Russia has more of “everything except democracy”, how is that different from what I say? If when I claim that having more doesn’t mean better, your response is to tell that to Georgia, then clearly you think having more of things is an inherent advantage. Ergo, the thing (singular thing, according to you) they have less of (democracy) can be the only thing keeping them from victory based on everything you have said thus far.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@bmdrocks21
If Russia has more of “everything except democracy”, how is that different from what I say? If when I claim that having more doesn’t mean better, your response is to tell that to Georgia, then clearly you think having more of things is an inherent advantage. Ergo, the thing (singular thing, according to you) they have less of (democracy) can be the only thing keeping them from victory based on everything you have said thus far.
  • If I say Goliath had more of everything except courage, that does not imply that courage was the only reason David won- there was the slingshot too.
  • If I say Persia had more of everything except Democracy, that does not imply that Democracy was the sole reason Athens won- there was the high ground and long spears and the speed that comes from years of training and the sacrifice of the Spartans and the disorder of the Persian landing and other factors too.  
    • Just because the victorious possesses a quality than the defeated lacked, it does not necessarily follow that quality must be the cause of victory.   That would a post hoc ergo propter hoc presumption.



bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@oromagi
  • If I say Goliath had more of everything except courage, that does not imply that courage was the only reason David won- there was the slingshot too.
  • If I say Persia had more of everything except Democracy, that does not imply that Democracy was the sole reason Athens won- there was the high ground and long spears and the speed that comes from years of training and the sacrifice of the Spartans and the disorder of the Persian landing and other factors too.  
    • Just because the victorious possesses a quality than the defeated lacked, it does not necessarily follow that quality must be the cause of victory.   That would a post hoc ergo propter hoc presumption.

If you said "Goliath had more of everything except courage" or "Persia had more of everything except Democracy", you'd be wrong.

Goliath had fewer ranged weapons, Persians had fewer spears. That's why nobody says the above quotes- because they are objectively incorrect. But I'm glad you now disagree with democracy being the sole cause of good performance.

I'm being a little pedantic here, but you are seemingly doubling down on the statement and rejecting it simultaneously.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@bmdrocks21
There is no need to mince words.

"Protecting Democracy" is the prepackaged slogan of every regime change war since Neocon Bush.

Meet the new Democracy wars. Same as the old ones.
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@Greyparrot
When exactly did democracy become a fetish?

They describe a form of government like it is a religious cult, and even merely questioning if elections are free and fair is an unforgiveable heresy.