Frequency

Author: EtrnlVw

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#31
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@secularmerlin
Honestly this whole idea that spirituality is provable if only one is "tuned in to the right frequency" is moving the goal posts.

 Lol keep dreaming sir. Nice try though, this is a statement of reality and pretty common knowledge in Theism, I'm just saying it in another way. Didn't Jesus make the claim "that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit"? in other words we are dealing with 2 distinct natures which is why we transcend the physical sense experience to acquire the knowledge that correlates with the nature of the Creator.

 That isn't how proof works.

I though it was evidence? moving posts I see?

If I set out to demonstrate gravity (a real thing if anything we perceive is real) it doesn't matter what frequency you are on or what you believe the gravity is apparent and it isn't dependent on the personal testimony of others it is directly apparent to all parties. When there is any evidence like that for spirituality I will consider it I promise.

The evidence for spirituality exceeds any other subject by far. It has more testimonial based evidences than any other topic of discussion. Nice try though, you really should consider what I'm saying. Nothing new, if you don't know that spiritual experience transcends the physical you should be asking more questions TBH.
You do realize that to the majority of the world it is apparent that God exists and to all the parties involved, where have ya been? 
#32
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@ET
There is no evidence for spirituality as you have always proved.
The man claiming to be Napoleon offers identical evidence to that claimed by you for spirituality ergo he must be Napoleon.
#33
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@ethang5
If our perceptions accurately reflect reality then we can make certain inferences based on those perceptions if on the other hand our perceptions do not accurately reflect reality then it becomes impossible to know anything. In neither case is there any sufficient evidence of the supernatural to justify any claims made aboutthe supernatural. I tend to accept the reality my senses present simply because no other is observable to me. If that means that there is no reason to bother presenting me with evidence thhen don't bother.

#34
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@janesix
I deny that we can call that objective shared reality since it is entirely anecdotal and eye witness testimony is unreliable. If something not readily apparent to both of us regardless of "frequency" then at least one of us has no reason to accept it as real and true.
#35
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@EtrnlVw
I once told you of some experiences I had that at the time I thought were spiritual in nature. You declared that my problem was that I had not experienced genuine spiritual happenings. While I agree with that assessment it highlights the problem with your evidence. How on earth can anyone possibly demonstrate that their spiritual experiences were more real then those I experienced for myself? You might have gotten further ifvypu had argued that I had deluded myself into doubting a genuine experience than to argue that I should just have your sort of spiritual experiences. Probably not much further but an inch is an inch after all.
#36
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@EtrnlVw
Didn't Jesus make the claim "that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit"?
I don't know since the source of this claim is unsubstantiated but even if he did why should I accept his claim? That is an argument from authority.

In any case as I said there is evidence for spirituality, unreliable evidence is still evidence. I did not begin this conversation by saying provide evidence I began by saying "prove it".

As for your goal post it starts with "I can prove spirituality is a valid form of knowledge" and I'm paraphrasing of course for which I apologize and then moves to "oh I can only prove it if you are on the right frequency mentally." That is a text book example of moving the goal posts.
I would never have you consider something absurd
Prove it.
The evidence for spirituality exceeds any other subject by far. 
It doesn't matter how much unreliable evidence you amass it is still unreliable. To say otherwise is an argument ad populum. 

Now one more time, and perhaps you will answer this time. Why should I accept your unreliable anecdotal evidence over the unreliable anecdotal evidence of billions of other theists, spiritists, conspiracy theorists and assorted snake oil salesman. (To be clear I do not consider you a snake oil salesman. When you say that you believe in your own rhetoric wholeheartedly I take you at your word but that is not proof that you are correct either.)


#37
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@secularmerlin
I tend to accept the reality my senses present simply because no other is observable to me.
This is stupidity.

Do you think Einstein "observed" relativity? Has any scientist "observed" quantum entanglement? Your view is just a ploy to not have to address what you obviously don't understand. With your view, science would still be in the 9th century.

If that means that there is no reason to bother presenting me with evidence thhen don't bother.
I don't. And as posters get to know that your "prove it"s and "peer review citation"s are bogus, they will stop bothering too. How many bother now?

If you claim to know nothing, and have no way to tell what is reality, what in tarnation are you going to do with evidence? Use it as a doorstop? And if it is evidence you can't "observe", your view pretends it doesn't exist. The whole time you are running your little liberal atheist fantasy that theist are here seeking your validation.

Yeah, that's right. I don't bother.
#38
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@ethang5
I can be reasonably certain if some things. I can form reasonable expectations based on past experience. You misrepresent me when you say that I claim not to be able to know anything. It is beyond human epistemology to be certain of anything. That is not the same as not knowing anything. That my perceived reality could be illusory does not mean that I cannot learn things about my environment within that framework. Gravity is a part of my experience even if my experience is illusory. Evolution is an observable part of that universe. Human altruism and iniquity are a part of that universe. I can be as certain of these things as I can be of anything. I have no reason to believe based on the evidence available to me that any god(s) exist within that universe. Gravity is real (for lack of a better word) no god(s) appear to be real (for lack of a better word). I cannot say that no god(s) could possibly exist without committing a black swan fallacy but neither can I say that breakdancing alien Elvis impersonators from planet x cannot possibly exist without committing a black swan fallacy. Your god(s) are as likely to be real based on the evidence as breakdancing alien Elvis impersonators from planet x. Also I do not identify as a liberal only a skeptic.

#39
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@secularmerlin
I have no reason to believe....
I do not care what you do or do not believe. You have no need to apologize to me for not believing something. I don't care. I have never proselytized to you. I could not care less if you withhold your belief. I do not give one fig for why you do not believe. Your belief means nothing to me. I'm not seeking it, asking for it, or needing it.

Read the above slowly, so that you don't respond to me yet again by telling me how you're sorry you must withhold your belief. I don't care.
#40
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@ethang5
I have never proselytized to you.
If not specifically to me then to the board at large. You are splitting hairs.
#41
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No sir. It is your delusion of grandeur that makes you think I want or desire your belief. I have never proselytized anyone on this site.

I defend Christian doctrine. It is God who converts hearts. But you aren't alone in your delusion. Most liberals think, as you do, that Christians are salesmen trying to sell them something and that their belief is currency.

That is a delusion. You aren't desired. Your belief is not being sought. You aren't special. No one needs your validation. Understand that.
#42
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@ethang5
Ok you don't care what I think. Logic, reason, and truth do not care what I think either. That is precisely why it is unreasonable to believe in an undeminstrable claim. Either this physical reality is real and we have no knowledge of anything outside it (including any god(s)) or it is not real and we have no knowledge. Which is it ethang5? Do not answer me if you don't want but consider the question for yourself.
#43
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@secularmerlin
Again you're stupidly telling me why you can't believe as if your belief is some sort of prize for me.

That is precisely why it is unreasonable to believe....
I don't care. I don't care for your reasons. I don't care if you believe or don't. I.don't.care.

Stop telling me how and why you don't believe. I don't care.

You don't believe. You've told everyone a million times. Move on or shut up. I don't care.
#44
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@ethang5
Then you are in violation of Peter 3:15. Not only are you not willing to give me the reason for the hope in your heart but you are not displaying meekness and fear. Ehat would your hypothetical god(s) say?
#45
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@secularmerlin
Ehat would your hypothetical god(s) say?
I don't know as I don't have a hypothetical God.

But the actual God has already spoken. He said,

"Don't throw your pearls to swine."
#46
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@ethang5
That contradicts Peter 3:15. Which then is the "rightest" of the two passages? How does one decide which principle to follow when the bible contradicts itself as it does so often? 
#47
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@secularmerlin
That contradicts Peter 3:15. Which then is the "rightest" of the two passages? How does one decide which principle to follow when the bible contradicts itself as it does so often?
The bible doesn't contradict itself. It contradicts the nonsense you have in your head that you think is Christian doctrine. I have no obligation to remove your ignorance, especially with you being so attached to it.

Anyone trying to clear up the fog in your mind would need to either see into your mind, or have you honestly answer questions. Humans cannot see into a mind, and you don't answer questions, much less answer them honestly, as such, that hazy fog clouding your mind is going to be there for a while.
#48
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@ethang5
Ask me anything.
#49
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@ethang5
The bible does however contradict itself as you pointed put when you countered Peter 3:15 with another passage that says essentially the opposite.
#50
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As I read it the OP is just a colourful way of saying 'keep an open mind'.

Theists are always telling atheists to keep and open mind, but seldom show any mental flexibility themselves.

Atheists do have open minds.   They opened their minds to all that is available and concluded there is no god.  Unless something new comes along there is no reason to change one's mind.   

Atheists have open minds to anything new theists have to say, but I doubt there has been anything new on that front for 500 years!  I rarely see the same open-mindedness to new ideas shown by theists.  Those that are open-minded often stop being theists.
#51
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@secularmerlin

The bible does however contradict itself...
No it doesn't. You are simply ignorant of what it says.

Ask me anything
Been there, done that. You would not answer and resorted to pretending to be obtuse. I did not care enough to continue to play your silly game.

And now that I know you are disingenuous, I care even less, if that is possible.
#52
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And the winner is.   The Sec Mur.....

Good game. 
Good game.
#53
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@ethang5
You are simply ignorant of what it says.

I've read it more than once. Cover to cover. I know what it says. That is part of why I'm an atheist and most of why I'm an atheist in regards to Yahweh specifically. 

#54
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@secularmerlin
Well, you hide that knowledge completely here. Because your posts put your ignorance on display. You read, but understand not. You haven't a clue what it says. Your posts scream out your ignorance.

But ignorance is not illegal. And I hear it is bliss. Go and be happy.


#55
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@ethang5
Are you the final arbiter of the meaning of the bible? If taken literally it contradicts itself flatly and if it is not taken literally it can be reinterpreted to mean nearly a anything. In either case it is as good as useless trying trying to puzzle it out but it is clearly in favor of slavery and misogyny and forgives this Yahweh person for perpetrating and/or instigating multiple genocides. It us an odd worldview indeed that considers that desirable or moral. Certainly that is a "morality" which is completely divorced from promoting physical wellbeing.
#56
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And yet billions throughout the ages have cherished and loved it. Confuses you no? Your position on the bible is a fringe position. Do you know why?

But again, I don't care. Perhaps you are looking for someone to convince you. That isn't me. If you don't believe, go and be happy. 

Why are you still so unfulfilled? I've never been to an atheist site repeatedly telling strangers why I believe. Again, find someone who cares, and babble about why you have to "withhold your belief" to that person. I don't care.

I know you are an attention whore, so I know you will keep making silly post till the cows come home, so I will leave you now. Feel free to tell whomever you think is listening how sorry you are that you must "withhold your belief" again.

I have to wash my hair.
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#57
EtrnlVw
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@keithprosser
As I read it the OP is just a colourful way of saying 'keep an open mind'.

Umm okay, maybe on some level but I would say that's more of a passive attitude where you're not actively participating in something or anything. If you want to experience spirituality you have to literally obtain it, apply it, practice it and pursue it. The reason is because it is a cultivation, a progression of the soul it is not just beliefs. Keeping an open mind is good because at least you are not avoiding things, but at some point you have to get involved and not be a side-liner. That is why I used the analogy of adjusting your channel or tuning into. 

Theists are always telling atheists to keep and open mind, but seldom show any mental flexibility themselves.

Okay, but do you feel that way about me? I'm pretty flexible no?

Atheists do have open minds.  

Well not really when it comes to spirituality TBH. There are some, but not you as you openly admitted. Castin would be a good example of what you are referring to. Disgusted would be the opposite. You're more of an inbetweener who's convinced himself Theism is "wrong", and TBH without any real good reason. The reasons I've seen are mainly strawmen. Strangely you understand Theism in some ways, but you're reason for avoiding it or not accepting it are silly. People may not be aware I read much more than I write.

They opened their minds to all that is available and concluded there is no god. 

Can you expand on that?

Unless something new comes along there is no reason to change one's mind.   

Well....unless you are willing to make changes you are probably gonna continue in the same cycle until the time is up. And that is not being open minded. 

Atheists have open minds to anything new theists have to say,

I present original things all the time. Mostly I think you guys just have decided anything to do with Theism or spirituality is absurd and it comes through in the posts. So again, even though there are exceptions you are not really one of those. 

but I doubt there has been anything new on that front for 500 years! 

And where have you looked? I find new things all the time. 

I rarely see the same open-mindedness to new ideas shown by theists.  Those that are open-minded often stop being theists.
Can you give me an example of a new idea? the more "Theist" I get the more open minded I get, that is because spirituality challenges the individual to grow and reach beyond their current limits. What does atheism challenge you to do? considering it's a dead end mindset?

#58
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@ET
The man claiming to be Napoleon offers identical evidence to that claimed by you for spirituality ergo he must be Napoleon.

#59
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@ethang5
But the actual God has already spoken. He said,
Prove it. What did Harry Potter say?

#60
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@ethang5
I know you are an attention whore
Oh your god! LOL.