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@Shila
Musk already said he will follow the government in censorship.
The US Just Joined A Global Internet Censorship Committee
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagiThe US does not censor RT:censorship takes many forms that are not exclusively by the command of the federal government
True but there's not much public policy can or should want to do about that. Mothers are going to keep their kids from watching X rated movies. Amazon is going to fire union organizers. Disney's going to fire Gina Carano. Trump is going to kick his critics off Truth Social. Most censorship in the US is not subject to public regulation and I don't think we want government to stick its nose in and decide what's right and wrong or force companies to endorse opinion contrary to its branding. The document in question seems to be on the right side of government non-interference.
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@oromagi
True but there's not much public policy can or should want to do about that.
Yeah? How about not using Facebook and Twitter and news corporations and internet service providers as an extension of the Federal Government's psyops and let people be free to say what they want unless it will cause real, trackable, and provable harm to someone else?
Or is that not a policy that a government can implement?
To me it seems very cut and dry. The government isn't a newspaper or a social media website or an internet service provider, so it should stop controlling them.
Yeah? How about not using Facebook and Twitter and news corporations and internet service providers as an extension of the Federal Government's psyops and let people be free to say what they want unless it will cause real, trackable, and provable harm to someone else?
- Your premise is too fuzzy and loaded. Give me a specific example of Fed "psyops," a specific example of media distribution of that operation and a specific example of social media exclusion at the request of the Federal Govt.
Or is that not a policy that a government can implement?
- I don't know of any Federal policy that throws users off of Facebook or Twitter or prevents people from buying newspapers or ISPs. What specific Federal policy do you oppose? What specific Federal policy would you implement?
The government isn't a newspaper or a social media website or an internet service provider, so it should stop controlling them.
- I think there are some specific limited examples of Fed Govt. interference, usually protecting National Security or Criminal Justice interests but I think media participation is more voluntary then you might suppose and consistent with your above standard of "real harm."
"Those who seek to censor have never been the good guys"
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@oromagi
True but there's not much public policy can or should want to do about that. Mothers are going to keep their kids from watching X rated movies. Amazon is going to fire union organizers. Disney's going to fire Gina Carano. Trump is going to kick his critics off Truth Social. Most censorship in the US is not subject to public regulation and I don't think we want government to stick its nose in and decide what's right and wrong or force companies to endorse opinion contrary to its branding. The document in question seems to be on the right side of government non-interference.
i'm not the one arguing in favor of "government interference"
it's more of a social symptom
demonstrating a somewhat surprising lack of faith in "the marketplace of ideas"
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@oromagi
Your point is obscure at best.
the Pentagon Papers had demonstrated, among other things, that the Johnson Administration had "systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress."
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@3RU7AL
the Pentagon Papers had demonstrated, among other things, that the Johnson Administration had "systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress."
Yeah but that was, like, different man. It was the 70s. The CIA doesn't do that anymore. /s
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagiYour point is obscure at best.the Pentagon Papers had demonstrated, among other things, that the Johnson Administration had "systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress."
- I picked up that it was about the Pentagon Papers. If you are just looking for examples of government cover-up we can look at far more recent examples. If you are interested in a more insightful non-fiction retrospective on the Pentagon Papers I strongly recommend Errol Morris' "Fog of War."
- I'm still trying to connect your example to our discussion here.
- PC states the recently signed Declaration for the Future of the Internet formed a committee to promote authoritarian censorship, I say the document looks like a fairly boilerplate statement of principles- the kind that International conferences produce quite regularly. Nothing special but I don't see anything to justify PC's misinformation or objection.
- Certainly, history if full of examples of government coverups. Is that an argument for governments signing international treaties promoting freedom of speech or against governments signing international treaties promoting freedom of speech?
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@Public-Choice
The CIA doesn't do that anymore.
- I don't think that's true at all. All intelligence agencies are going to lie about most of what they do most of the time. Such deception is a natural incubator for all kinds of criminal activities. Let's assume that the CIA is currently doing at least one shockingly scandalous awful thing and covering it up so hard that we might never hear about it. How does that connect to your opposition to governments signing generic statements of support for freedom of speech, etc.?
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@Greyparrot
Oro is a very strong believer in the value of governance by technocratic oligarchs. You won't see any of his opinions sway one inch from that core belief.
There's a chance he's a paid shill. The amount of hours, the copy-pasting from 'approved' sources, and the fact that his opinions don't sway one inch from technocratic oligarch interest, make a decent case for that.
Years ago, I got arrested alongside Allen Ginsberg for trying to make a citizen's arrest on CIA officers for their complicity in training the El Salvador National Guard to rape and murder as terrorist tactics in suppressing communist incursions.
so much for GP's:
Oro is a very strong believer in the value of governance by technocratic oligarchs. You won't see any of his opinions sway one inch from that core belief.
Over the years, I've forced a few governments to arrest me on a number of different occasions in the name of patriotic protest. I also grew up around DC and have many many old friends who work for the US govt. I know for a fact that most of what the US government does is good and well meaning. When discussing public policy we need informed recommendations in response to evidence-based analysis rather than just wild-eyed conspiracy theorizing.
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@Avery
that's funny my last post looks aimed at you but I didn't see your comment before posting. Synchronicity
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@Avery
If you live long enough in the swamp, you get used to it I guess. Even rationalize it.
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@oromagi
It doesn't actually address what I'm saying.
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@Greyparrot
If you live long enough in the swamp, you get used to it I guess. Even rationalize it.
I think your narrative is possible, too.
There's not enough evidence to confirm he's a shill, but there's is some to suggest it.
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@Avery
There's a lot of users on this site fixated on Russia and refuse to talk about the threat of China. It's possible China is trying to manipulate opinions weakening the USA and misdirecting blame to Russia.
I am pretty sure Shila is a Chinese agent.
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@Greyparrot
It's possible China is trying to manipulate opinions weakening the USA and misdirecting blame to Russia.
Well American billionaires and the CCP have a lot of mutual interests... Could be a team up.
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@Public-Choice
It's also really weird that the same people who are worried about Russian influence actually think American Nationalism is worse than Nazism.
Why would these people care about a foreign country meddling in a nation they have zero pride in?
It just makes me think these people are just caught up in the doublethink and the doublespeak because it makes them feel important and accepted.
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@Greyparrot
How much do you know about Putin's Russia to say Putin himself isn't fascist?
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@RationalMadman
There's a bit of fascism in all of us. It's genetic to have tribal instincts.
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@Greyparrot
I actually don't just mean the racist or ethnocentric aspect, which I will admit Ukraine itself has been guilty of for many decades.
I mean all aspects of fascism, in particular the tyranny and censorship.
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@RationalMadman
Censorship isn't exclusive to fascism. We literally have Americans voting today to give the government power to censor Americans.
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@Greyparrot
Why would these people care about a foreign country meddling in a nation they have zero pride in?
Exactly. And, even further, why do they care WHICH country it is? Why is it had if it's Russia but not China?
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@RationalMadman
I mean all aspects of fascism, in particular the tyranny and censorship.
Right.
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@Greyparrot
So, what is shill-like or hypocritical about one wanting Russia to lose the invasion war in Ukraine and also claiming to be pro-democracy and freedoms?
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@RationalMadman
Because most of the neo-cons and neo-liberals have to promote anti-nationalism to push their globalist agenda. Why should people care about America when they are taught to hate America?
On top of that, America is funneling Billions of dollars to a nation that has and continues to ethnically cleanse innocent citizens in the Donbas as they have done since 2014 for the crime of being born culturally Russian. All so that America could have a convenient proxy war to funnel taxpayer money through the military industrial complex and back into the pockets of the politicians in charge.
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@RationalMadman
Have you seen the protests of progressives denouncing AOC for being a warhawk?
If I recall, you don't have a strong bias against progressives.
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@Greyparrot
That idiot who stood up and spoke is not only an ignorant waste of space for that room (well there were many empty chairs I guess he didn't waste much) but is almost 100% sure not a genuine left-wing progressive voter.
I don't care if he does or doesn't vote Democrat or what that was about, I can tell you he is a non-genuine left-wing individual who doesn't stand for our beliefs.
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@RationalMadman
What's so progressive about being a warhawk?