Moderators rights

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bsh1
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@Buddamoose
The site itself is a place intended to foster intellectual and rational debate. How do you propose a website that adjudicates from on high with no feasible recourse against, potential harmful to welfare as a whole, bans, not consequentially lose userbase growth and/or begin to shrink? 
Moderation has always been done from on high. I hardly think you could make the argument that it was Max's policies towards pans and user punishments that drove DDO into decline.

And moderator decisions when exclusively their own, should not preclude any independent examination.
Then you're essentially having tiered moderating. None of that refutes the idea that a single examiner/mod is going to be making an unreviewable, final call at some point down the line. The extra bureaucracy only drags out the process and inhibits the expediency needed to address issues in realtime. 

Reasonable checks being placed on potential abuses isnt foolish.
Sure, but what are reasonable checks? It doesn't seem like you and I disagree that there should be checks. Rather, we disagree on what those checks should be. Having two mods who need to come to a unanimous decision on perma-bans or long temp-bans prevents a single mod from acting capriciously. It is unlikely that both mods will make a willfully irresponsible call. More than that, such a system would require two sets of eyes to review the facts. This, effectively, acts as a second investigation and a second opinion, which is something you seem to want. This is the only check I really see as appropriate, excluding, of course, the fact that mods must remain accountable to site ownership, which I'll address below.

Unilateral Moderator Control fmpov is equally as absurd. 
As I said previously: "That said, if a mod is clearly and egregiously abusing or misusing their authority, the site owner should be prepared to remove them from the position. But, the site owner must be careful not to remove a mod simply because they made an unpopular decision--the site owner must understand that a mod can only be removed if a pattern of severe, inexcusable, and ongoing abuses of mod power occur. Mostly, the mods should just be left alone to do their job. Some complaints, esp. after unpopular decisions, are inevitable, and we mustn't defrock a mod on such a tenuous justification." Plus, the site owner has an incentive to ensure semi-decent modding, so as not to chase away users, which, again, was a concern of yours.

But ultimately, just like Max and Juggle, mods are externally accountable to the site owner. They are internally accountable (i.e. they must have each other's respect). And, they are indirectly accountable to the usership, which exerts pressure on site ownership. Thus, the mods are not unaccountable, and not unilaterally empowered in the sense I think you mean it.

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I'm not going to get into your other comments much, except to say that term limits are unworkable because--to be painfully blunt--there aren't enough trustworthy users to fill the role of mod. I'll also add, briefly, that popular elections for mods would be a disaster. Just look at how the presidential elections went, and then multiply that times ten. Moreover, by making mods answerable to voters, you incentivize the mods to pander to certain constituencies, which makes it unlikely they mod fairly once in power.
1harderthanyouthink
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I think, given the amount of time Max has to focus on DDO's spam problem, any hope of him running the show here should be discarded for the time being and we should move onto figuring out who can handle moderation on DA.
RationalMadman
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@ethang5
@Lunatic
@1harderthanyouthink
@bsh1
Airmax is doing his best. This is all there is to know. 

ethang has very little understanding of the arrangement between Max and Juggle so let him hate, it's like when people hate on me knowing so little about me, it is my duty to let them hate and I will actively stop flaming those that are too ignorant on a person who hate them.

Let ethang hate Max. Max was a corrupt friend-pleaser but he has changed into a much better human being who just happens to have less free time to deal with DDO stuff than previously.

It may not be a coincidence that the less time he has on DDO, the less corrupt he became. That all being said, we must understand that there are two sides to EVERY SINGLE story and even in this story we don't know how desperate for cash the spammers are among many other things. There's no hero here, there's just strong vs stronger making the other look weak.

Juggle is not a pushover, they are a proper corporation and I wish them the best in fighting the scumbag spammers but Max is not responsible at all for what's going on and is NOT AN ADMINISTRATOR OF DEBATE.ORG he is a HIGH POWERED MODERATOR. This is very important in understanding why he is being limited.
Admin>godmod>normal mod>(vote mode, subforum mod etc) Max is godmod in the hierarchy, not admin.
Smithereens
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@Polytheist-Witch
what made you think I blamed the religion form?
Buddamoose
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@bsh1
Moderation has always been done from on high. I hardly think you could make the argument that it was Max's policies towards pans and user punishments that drove DDO into decline.

Moderation always being done from on high doesn't mean it should be. And saying such a policy has a certain affect, doesnt that effect would always be witnessed. I would question the rationality of presuming it doesnt have an effect whatsoever. 

As stated before, decisions would be prioritized as:

1)Owenership interests
2) ToS
3) fostering growth in userbase and diversity of thought

Ownership interests were accounted for. There is no check for that power because original authority is with ownership. This was only in the event of priviledges of moderation being in part left for the userbase to be involved in. 

In that event then a singular check on  permanent bans would imho be the only check necessary. As I stated, i see no good reason to involve general usership in the process anywhere else. *Except* in that singular regard. 

The illustration of the spectrum itself was not to establish my as being on one side or the other for all or part, but rather to show you are as extreme as you can get towards one side of considerations, and not budging on a damn thing that would place any sort of check on unilateral authority in all regards but where site ownership interests are deferred to. 
Buddamoose
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*singular check on permanent bans, and records of adjudications therein to be made public, with any necessary redactions to protect the privacy of those whose privacy priviledges have not been ceded by virtue of committing violations severe enough to merit permanent banning. 📚
ethang5
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@Lunatic

The whole stem of your complaints is that he isn't doing enough. He obviously still has admin abilities, but doesn't use them as frequently as he once did because the site was left to hell by the developers.
Thanks for belatedly admitting the truth.

He doesn't owe the site the activity you think he does, this was always a hobby for him.
It doesn't matter what it was for him, if he accepted the position, the duties of that position was his responsibility.

Not a paid position.
Again, it doesn't matter. He accepted the position without pay (this has not been established) so no pay does not free him from the responsibilities of the position.

Your claim that people left because of the moderator is completely untrue.
My claim is that people left because the poor moderation allowed the site to become unfriendly. That is true.

Maybe it's the reason you left, but if it is, it's a piss poor reason.
I left because the site was no longer usable.

More likely you came here because the spam, and are using Max as a scapegoat to blame your problems on.
The spam at DDO is not my problem, as such, I don't need to blame it on anyone.

That's fine, your poorly formed  and  badly substantiated opinion of him is shadowed by the horde of other members who respected Max for everything he did for the site over the years.
Hitler was popular.

I spoke to Airmax today. The childish taunts of being afraid or having an agenda are below you. 

Did you ask him if I knew him?
No. I don't care if you know him. It is obvious that it was not true that he had resigned.

These aren't taunts, you are literally calling me a liar and saying I don't know him.
No sir. I don't care if you know him. You obviously don't know him as well as you wanted us to believe. He was a poor mod, and how well you know him cannot change that.

Re-activating closed accounts is an admin function.

Duh, what's your point?
That you were wrong when you said he had resigned his admin duties.

No site would allow someone who " owes them nothing" to have access to their admin functions. 

Juggle did.
Untrue. And your record of being correct on things like this is pitiful.

They didn't want to do the work so they were lucky Max enough was kind enough to do it for them for free for all these years.
Then they certainly got their money's worth.

Max owes nothing to us, or them, and can stop moderating at anytime he pleases.
As long as he is mod, the responsibilities of the job are his. If he cannot or will not do them, he should resign.

Max is not evil or a douchebag. He just did not moderate very well.

And you continuously fail to make a good case for this,...
The smoking wreck that is DDO does that adequately. 

If you decide you actually want to back this up, feel free to challenge me to debate on this, we can go over all the evidence and let the voters decide. 
Why would I debate you on something so trivial and silly? I need no vote to have an opinion. He was a terrible mod. He may have been a good friend, but his moderation was lacking.

The site is up. Why are you here?
Smithereens
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The life of DDO was the conflicts we had in the earlier days and boy did they keep us coming back for more aha. The membership is more than capable of taking care of most ordinary problems. RM isn't actually a problem for example until he multiaccount spams. Dealing with our own issues is something we can manage.

Castin
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Why are we discussing democratic moderating? Has Mike given some sign he's considering this?
1harderthanyouthink
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@Castin
Well, he didn't speak about moderation as if he planned on doing all of it, and he asked us what power moderation should have.
Castin
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@1harderthanyouthink
All right, then somebody notify me if he gives some sign he's leaning that way so I know when to flail about in proper panic. Flailing is exhausting and I don't want any false alarms.
RationalMadman
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@DebateArt.com
Please discipline this guy, he is abusing the ability to post the same-style topic in different subject areas to farm forum points:


DebateArt.com
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@secularmerlin
@RationalMadman
Please discipline this guy, he is abusing the ability to post the same-style topic in different subject areas to farm forum points:
He probably just wanted to fill some almost empty categories ( which we still need to merge at some point, I remember about that ). Don't really see anything "criminal" about it, or what am I missing? 



RationalMadman
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@DebateArt.com
if others can copy paste topics over and over to farm points that's what you want? Otherwise he's cheating.
RationalMadman
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@DebateArt.com
if others can copy paste topics over and over to farm points that's what you want? Otherwise he's cheating.
DebateArt.com
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@RationalMadman
Well, it's not exactly a copy-paste, they have identical or similar names but different content nevertheless and it's only two topics, so it's nothing serious, at least at this point. But I believe I saw somewhere a topic that was created with the single purpose of farming the points, now that's different story and rather sooner than later, we'd need to be more responsible when it comes to things like that.
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@DebateArt.com
By 2, you mean 4.

9 days later

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@DebateArt.com
@RationalMadman
Reposting from another thread (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/201?page=4&post_number=91), as I did not know RM had made the same suggestion...

My two cents...

There needs to be multiple types and levels of moderators.

Forum Moderators 
Deleting spam from the forums could be trusted to many, but reorganizing the forums or locking threads is a top level decision low level mods should lack powers to accidentally enact.

Debate Moderators
Again deleting outright spam is easy to trust. Deleting (or hiding the listing) of offensive debates, would require a greater level of care. We want love spell salesmen banned in short order (call it probation until reviewed by a top level admin?). Fake debates created by peoples alts to give them free wins, at a certain point become obvious, but not something to risk mistakes with. Finally offensive topics call for maximum care, likely multiple admins signing off on the removal (I'd say zero intellectual validity, like neo nazis saying the holocaust must be resumed... if Ren is smarter than Stimpy on the other hand, is without importance, but could serve as a valid exchange of ideas).

Vote Moderators
Sensitive topic to which I might start a thread for the discussion, but in brief... I know to some a series of random symbols is the gold standard of judging debate, but to anyone with intellectual integrity it's an insult to the debaters as well as any judgement which shows evidence of even knowing the debate topic. Then getting harder, there's obvious vote trades (on DDO there was even a guy offering blowjobs for favorable votes), which call for care in handling beyond a quick click of delete. A few levels up there's votes which are low quality, but not intentionally violating the rules; for these I'd say comity review with veto powers (blocking the removal)... of course the primary goal of such things should not be policing, but rather vote analysis to give positive feedback to improve future votes ("I agree with x" gets deleted, any vote which tried is okay).

Mine is basically a long term explanation, written without industry lingo. I haven't actually worked IT, but I am trained in cyber security, and elsewhere have seen things go wrong in easily preventable ways. Anyway I'd be happy to re-write this, combine other things into it, etc.
DebateArt.com
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@Barney
Hi and thanks for the suggestion. As I believe I replied to RM, levels of mods and their different specialities make perfect sense to me so I guess that's exactly where we'll move.
bsh1
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@DebateArt.com
Why? Levels of mod seem to add unneeded oversight, and could actually be more bureaucratic than necessary. I think only two mods are necessary, tbh. If more than two are necessary, the chief mod should be empowered to appoint more later.
Smithereens
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I don't think there are enough suitable individuals to make that many mods at this point in time.
1harderthanyouthink
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Yeah, I'm not keen on appointing more than one mod.
bsh1
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@Smithereens
I agree with that. But it's not only a question of numbers, I think it's also (potentially) an issue of too many cooks in the kitchen. But yeah, you're 100% right about that. 
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@bsh1
I think too many cooks would be an issue if there was role overlap. If the jurisdictions were strictly forums or debate votes then there's effectively just one mod. 
bsh1
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@Smithereens
Perhaps, but then you could have wide variances in terms of rules between forums based on each mod's style. That inconsistency would be off-putting. I mean, I think it's just easier to have power centrally located. More unitary than federalist.
Smithereens
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@bsh1
I agree, but I'm not sure what the role of debate/vote moderator would imply. If it's not merely controlling abuse like a forum mod would do, then there's room for a specialty role there, like Whiteflame. 
bsh1
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@Smithereens
On that, I agree. I'd still like things to trace back to a single authority, but decentralization is entirely necessary and prudent. No one mod can be expected to handle everything, and so they need to be willing to hand tasks over to assistants.
DebateArt.com
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@bsh1
Why? Levels of mod seem to add unneeded oversight, and could actually be more bureaucratic than necessary. I think only two mods are necessary, tbh. If more than two are necessary, the chief mod should be empowered to appoint more later.
Because it limits each mod's oversight and therefore makes it easier to moderate. I mean, in my opinion it's better to have one forum mod and one debates mod without any or only limited overlapping responsibilities.

Levels of mods also make sense but in the long run, I think it doesn't make much sense to add them now :)


bsh1
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@DebateArt.com
Because it limits each mod's oversight and therefore makes it easier to moderate

Or it just incentivizes mods to over-moderate, which is exactly the kind of thing that will drive users away. You have three well-respected users telling you that multiple mods is not a good idea; we understand that from experience.

Moreover, Smithers is right: there are not enough users who could be mods to have many more than two. Better to have two competent mods than a handful of bad ones.
DebateArt.com
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@bsh1
Or it just incentivizes mods to over-moderate, which is exactly the kind of thing that will drive users away. You have three well-respected users telling you that multiple mods is not a good idea; we understand that from experience.
I think that depends on the mods themselves. And I am not planning to have many mods, just one for the forum, once I finish the admin interface for that, and then later one more for the debates. This way they would have different responsibilities and oversight, which is convenient considering that the rules are probably gonna have some differences for those two sections. Also this way mods will need less time to do the work since it'd be limited to only one section.