The case for the Historical Jesus

1. What evidence do we have that Jesus was in fact a Historical person?

Did Jesus claim he was God?

Jesus, fictional, mythical or otherwise is undeniably a historically recorded character.

Whether the accounts of his life and activities are vaguely true or not, is impossible to know.

Though I would suggest that most interpretations are embellished and exaggerated, such that we can only regard the biblical tales as myth or fantasy. 

--> @Shila @Tradesecret

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SHILA, the Bible fool that is vying to take over Tradesecret’s position as being the #1 Bible fool at DEBATEART Religion Forum,

In addressing your ever so weak post #39:

JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS STATED:  “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." (1 Timothy 2:11-14)

Your Bible inept response to the passage above in your weak post #39 was: “It is logical God would not want Adam’s rib (Eve) to be smarter than Adam.

But remember Eve ate the fruit of knowledge first and then offered it to Adam so he would not be dumber than her.”

WRONG! What has your child-like response relative to 1 Timothy 2:11-14 have to do with the biblical axiom that you are an inferior woman that is NOT to teach or exercise the authority over man as you are embarrassingly doing in your pathetic thread, but where you are only to remain QUIET as Jesus proposes in said passage?!  Huh?

Relative to your continued Bible stupidity, yes, it was Eve that ate from the Tree of Knowledge FIRST, where Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, had forbidden Adam and Eve to eat from this tree, remember Bible inept fool?

“And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1 Timothy 2:14)

Therefore, Eve started Original Sin, thankyouverymuch, and man has been paying for Eve going against Jesus’ command ever since, understood Bible stupid fool?  Therefore, since Eve was the transgressor, Jesus punished her with the following: To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." (Genesis 3:16) 

In the Creation narrative, this is where it started that the woman is looked down upon in the Bible, and became a second class citizen to this day,  period!

As I have told you before many times, take your insidious “dog and pony show” to a Children’s Christian Forum where you belong because of your complete Bible ignorance!  In doing so, this will save  you from further embarrassment within this esteemed Religion Forum, understood you complete Bible stupid fool?!

NEXT?

--> @Shila

Why are you talking about yourself in third person? 

Is this a Seinfeld episode?

--> @Shila

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Shila, is now taking over in being the #1 Bible fool over Tradesecret's former position,

In addressing your double-speak and complete Bible runaway responses in your ever so embarrassing post #39, you do not have the wherewithal to understand in just how Bible stupid you truly are!  Look at your pathetic responses to actual Biblical axioms in said post, where you continue to repeat yourself over and over with your child-like assumed logical responses, how embarrassing can you get?!  

You're an embarrassment to Christianity and this prestigious Religion Forum, and don't think that Jesus is not watching you perform your Satanic acts that you will pay for upon Judgment Day for sure!  (Hebrews 4:13) 

NEXT BIBLICALLY INFERIOR WOMAN LIKE "SHILA" THAT GOES DIRECTLY AGAINST JESUS' TRUELY INSPIRED WORDS REGARDING THE SECOND-CLASS WOMAN WILL BE ...?

--> @Shila

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Shila, is now taking over in being the #1 Bible fool over Tradesecret's former position,

Dear, I am truly sorry, but as I stated before, Jesus wanted me to make you an example of being one of the most Bible stupid pseudo-christians that has ever frequented  this DEBATEART Religion Forum, bar none!

Shila dear, do you want to call Jesus' inspired words above towards demeaning women as LIES?  Then you dig yourself deeper into the hole you have provided for yourself because of the following JESUS INSPIRED passages: 

YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE TO MY QUOTE ABOVE IN YOUR POST #39: "I checked my red letter Bible. None of the quotes above came from Jesus. Jesus was never an authority on women. Even at 30 he remained single. But hung around with 12 men. One lied to him the other betrayed him."

Simply put with your quote above in saying that Jesus did not say the passages relative to the 2nd class inferior woman, your biblical ignorance has no bounds because of the following biblical axioms:

THE BIBLE STATES THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD IN JESUS:  “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5)

JESUS IS THE SERIAL KILLER YAHWEH GOD INCARNATE, THE ONE GOD: “Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours."

THEREFORE, JESUS AS THE ONE GOD WITHIN THE SCRIPTURES, INSPIRED EVERY WORD WRITTEN PERTAINING TO THE 2ND CLASS WOMAN:  “And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13)

Shila, if I can be frank, and you can remain Shila, we don't know in how much biblical embarrassment you can take within your own thread, therefore, Jesus and I will still have to continue to show your outright Bible stupidity ad infinitum at your continued embarrassing expense, sorry dear.  :(

IS THERE ANOTHER PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN WOMAN THAT IS AS DUMBFOUNDED OF THE BIBLE AS "SHILA" IS SHOWN TO BE...?

-> @zedvictor4

Jesus, fictional, mythical or otherwise is undeniably a historically recorded character.

Whether the accounts of his life and activities are vaguely true or not, is impossible to know.

Though I would suggest that most interpretations are embellished and exaggerated, such that we can only regard the biblical tales as myth or fantasy. 

Someone as disturbingly radical as Christ, as powerful in actions, presence, and legacy as he was, could only be expected to incite widely varying interpretations of his life.

-> @Shila

Yes, I certainly accept the case for the historical Jesus character, first mentioned as such, sometime around the 12th century.

One couldn't really avoid it, as one was force fed Jesus' tales throughout one's early school years.

Fortunately, my father was a devout atheist and kept me on the straight and narrow.

He is the most written about person in history, the only written evidence comes from Christian sources, but they wrote about Him and there is no reason to think there was some kind of conspiracy to lie about His existence.   You could likewise argue that Thales, Pythagoras and Socrates never existed because the only evidence we have was what other’s wrote about them, and since all the sources were Greek, maybe they made it up, but why would you?  Just because written sources from antiquity necessarily come down to us from the culture that they existed in, is no reason to doubt them. 

 

To claim that the most influential person in history never existed would be an extraordinary claim which would require extraordinary evidence, and there is none. 

The same historical evidence that He existed, also states that he explicitly denied being God.

Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the  kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

 

Matthew 24:36

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.”

 

Mark 10:18

And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

 

Mark 13:32

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

 

Luke 22:42

saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."

 

John 4:34

Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work.”

 

John 5:30

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”

 

John 6:38

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.”

 

John 7:16

Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.”

 

John 8:42

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

 

John 8:50

“And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.”

 

John 12:49

"For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”

 

John 14:24

"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.”

--> @zedvictor4

Jesus, fictional, mythical or otherwise is undeniably a historically recorded character.

Whether the accounts of his life and activities are vaguely true or not, is impossible to know.

Though I would suggest that most interpretations are embellished and exaggerated, such that we can only regard the biblical tales as myth or fantasy. 

Someone as disturbingly radical as Christ, as powerful in actions, presence, and legacy as he was, could only be expected to incite widely varying interpretations of his life.

--> @BrotherD.Thomas

need a decoder ring, or addendums to be able to read them in their alleged true form?

What languages are the Bible written in? It wasn't English. That's why there hundreds of TRANSLATIONS! They all differ based on INTERPRETATIONS of the Greek.

Honestly I would laugh at this troll account but some people actually believe the tripe you're joking about.

But Jesus clarifies the relationship between the Father and him.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

--> @Shila

But Jesus clarifies the relationship between the Father and him.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

How does that “clarify” it, what is the relationship, on face value the statements are conflicting.

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@Shila

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Shila, is now taking over in being the #1 Bible fool over Tradesecret's former position,

YOUR CONTINUED BIBLICAL IGNORANT QUOTE IN YOUR POST #69: "You are quoting verses that came from Paul. Paul was not a disciple of Jesus nor did he meet or follow Jesus like the other disciples did."

What part of this very simple biblical syllogism don't you understand, you inept Bible fool?

THE BIBLE STATES THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD IN JESUS:  “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5)

JESUS IS THE SERIAL KILLER YAHWEH GOD INCARNATE, THE ONE GOD: “Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours."

THEREFORE, JESUS AS THE ONE GOD WITHIN THE SCRIPTURES, INSPIRED EVERY WORD WRITTEN PERTAINING TO THE 2ND CLASS WOMAN:  “And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13)

Paul spoke in the inspired words of Jesus as being God in 1 Thessalonians 2:13, understood?  Are you calling the above biblical syllogism a LIE?!  If so, where do you get the authority to usurp Jesus' true words He gave to Paul?!  Tell us, is  your blatant Bible stupidity natural, or do you have to practice it daily? LOL!

Jesus H. Christ, and I thought Tradesecret was bible stupid, whereas you take the cake hasds down!

@ Public-Choice Great!  Now, for you to save face within this forum, you will now provide the said Greek and Hebrew words TO EACH OF MY 12 GIVEN PASSAGES AS SHOWN IN JESUS' WORDS IN DEFAMING WOMEN IN MY POST #33 TO PROVE THEM WRONG!  You may begin, we're waiting in a timely manner whereas the clock is ticking in your behalf! #60

Brother D. Thomas wrote: #33 

1.  "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." (1 Timothy 2:11-14)

2.  “ But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman in man. For the man is not of the women; but the woman of the man.” (1Corinthians 11: 3,8 ) 

3.  “I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare.” (Ecclesiastes 7:26)

4.  "The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

5.  "Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered." (1 Peter 3:7)

6.  "It is better to live in a corner of the housetop than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife." (Proverbs 21:9)

7.  "It is better to live in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman." (Proverbs 21:19)

8.  “ It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.” (Proverbs 21:9)

9.  "A quarrelsome wife is as annoying as constant dripping on a rainy day. Stopping her complaints is like trying to stop the wind or trying to hold something with greased hands." (Proverbs 27:15-16) 

10.  " Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire." (1 Timothy 2:9)

11.  "For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior." (Ephesians 5:23)

12.  "For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man." (1 Corinthians 11:8-9).

Someone as disturbingly radical as Christ

A lot of work in the creation of the New Testament involved the fulfilling of Old Testament messianic prophecies. This is one of them and I would think an important one.

 

Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

 

This to me this suggests Jesus existed as a real person and was reasonably well known by the name Jesus, so they were not able to change it to Immanuel.

Someone as disturbingly radical as Christ

Will you define for us -radical - in this context.

Someone as disturbingly radical as Christ

Will you define for us -radical - in this context.

Jesus was a revolutionary change agent; and in fact he was a radical in every sense of the word.

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@Sidewalker

More so, those that stand to gain advantage from perpetuating the myth.

Yep, as I stated Jesus/Joshua/Yeshua is/was a character recorded in historical narratives and we know roughly where he was said to have lived, there's no denying that.

And that's about all one can say for certain.

And yep 1632, that's the point I try to get across. All is made up after the event.

--> @BrotherD.Thomas

@ Public-Choice Great!  Now, for you to save face within this forum, you will now provide the said Greek and Hebrew words TO EACH OF MY 12 GIVEN PASSAGES AS SHOWN IN JESUS' WORDS IN DEFAMING WOMEN IN MY POST #33 TO PROVE THEM WRONG!  You may begin, we're waiting in a timely manner whereas the clock is ticking in your behalf! #60

The 12 given passages that you refer to at #33 Brother D.  go as follows.

Brother D. Thomas wrote: #33 

1.  "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." (1 Timothy 2:11-14)

2.  “ But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman in man. For the man is not of the women; but the woman of the man.” (1Corinthians 11: 3,8 ) 

3.  “I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare.” (Ecclesiastes 7:26)

4.  "The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

5.  "Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered." (1 Peter 3:7)

6.  "It is better to live in a corner of the housetop than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife." (Proverbs 21:9)

7.  "It is better to live in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman." (Proverbs 21:19)

8.  “ It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.” (Proverbs 21:9)

9.  "A quarrelsome wife is as annoying as constant dripping on a rainy day. Stopping her complaints is like trying to stop the wind or trying to hold something with greased hands." (Proverbs 27:15-16) 

10.  " Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire." (1 Timothy 2:9)

11.  "For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior." (Ephesians 5:23)

12.  "For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man." (1 Corinthians 11:8-9).

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@Sidewalker

Someone as disturbingly radical as Christ

Will you define for us -radical - in this context.

-> @Elliott

A lot of work in the creation of the New Testament involved the fulfilling of Old Testament messianic prophecies. This is one of them and I would think an important one.

 

Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

 

This to me this suggests Jesus existed as a real person and was reasonably well known by the name Jesus, so they were not able to change it to Immanuel.

Well I am going to take it that you have actually read Isiah in its entirety? But you have failed to realise that this so-called prophecy was intended to be fulfilled in king Ahaz's lifetime and has nothing at all to do with a child to be born 700 years into the future.

After all, what good would a child to be born 700 years into the future be to king Ahaz in his hour of need?

I have said it before that this is the author of Matthew's gospel once again reaching for his trusty OT in a desperate attempt to link Jesus to the OT prophesies as being the one to come and prophesised about, and it is something he does often in the New Testament.

sidewalker: Jesus was a revolutionary change agent; and in fact he was a radical in every sense of the word.

And what is it that you believe Jesus changed during the short time of his ministry?