Pro-Life without God

Author: Uragirimono
Religion
Abortion
pro-life
pro-choice

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#1
Uragirimono
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I want to hear from pro-lifers that are pro-life without religious reasons. I was raised in the conservative Christian US south, I am painfully well-versed in the religious reasons, but I'm curious as to what non-religious pro-lifers belief and why. 

I'm primarily framing this discussion within an American context but am open to hear from anyone.
#2
RationalMadman
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@Uragirimono
So, there is actually not only an atheistic reason why but a left-wing reason why:

The solution is never ever long-term in eliminating the fetus.

Bring up any reason for an abortion at all and you will find that the root cause is actually able to be pushed aside and fought back against less intensely if abortion is a way out of it.

That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be avaiable necessarily, what it means is there exists a logical reason why.
#3
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@Uragirimono
I am non-religious.

I am also pro-choice and pro-life relative to the necessity of survival.

Absolute pro-life is an impossibility for any living organism.

Though some people do tend to compartmentalise their thoughts in a contradictory way.

Save the foetus shoot the Russian eat the fried chicken, as it were.
#4
Polytheist-Witch
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Good luck. Atheists are liars and never give straight answers. 
#5
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@Uragirimono
While I identify as Christian, I cannot imagine my opinion on abortion changing were I to become an atheist tomorrow. Most converts to atheism retain their former sense of morality, and that's what abortion is: a moral issue. You shouldn't need God to tell you not to kill babies.
#6
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It's a natural instinct as part of an evolutionary survival of the fittest trait to have an impulse to pass on to the  next generation. There's no need for religion to be part of established evolutionary instincts present in every life form.
#7
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A women's right to choose was legal for 50 years. If it was moral then, there is no reason why it is not moral today. So essentially the banning of Rove V. Wade was political and not based on moral grounds.
#8
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@Shila
You could also choose to own a slave in the past. Just because it was done once in the past does not make it moral. In fact, every progressive's position relies on the very fact of evolving morality.
#9
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@Greyparrot
You could also choose to own a slave in the past. Just because it was done once in the past does not make it moral. In fact, every progressive's position relies on the very fact of evolving morality.
It was never legal or moral to abort slaves. Roe V. Wade was passed way after slavery was abolished. 

#10
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@Shila
You gotta love modern algorithms.
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#11
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@RationalMadman
You say "The solution is never ever long-term in eliminating the fetus." 

I think you're speaking to systemic issues like lack of healthcare, poverty, lack of childcare/family support and, in that sense, I agree. Abortion would not be the point of contention that it is if we as a society were willing to make things surrounding pregnancy and childbirth better. 

But if the problem I'm trying to solve it "I don't want to be pregnant" then eliminating the fetus 100% solves my problem, both in the long and short term. On an individualistic level, why do we compel women who don't want to be pregnant (for whatever systemic reason) to be pregnant? What's the logical reason why we legislate how uterus-owners use their uteruses?
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#12
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@Polytheist-Witch
If I gave you the impression that I'm religious, I apologize.
I left the religion that abused me years ago and have no interest in finding another.
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#13
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@Swagnarok
I was a pro-life Christian. 
I am no longer pro-life nor Christian. 

I do find it ironic that the Christian God literally told people in the Bible to kill their babies/children, but "we shouldn't need God to tell you not to kill your babies".

I do agree abortion is a moral issue but it's also a legal one. We make laws on things people disagree about morally all the time, and we change those laws as popular morals change. This is why marijuana is now legal in many states, why interracial and gay marriage is legal across the US, and why child labor laws have evolved over time -- because our morality changes. 

We can 100% debate on the morality of abortion, but for me the more immediate problem/concern is a moral minority legislating their opinions on others. 
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#14
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@Greyparrot
So is my  "natural instinct as part of an evolutionary survival of the fittest trait" broken because I don't want children?
Does that open my body up to legislation from people that disagree with me?
#15
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@Uragirimono
It not only solves it but your nonchalant slaughter of a human inside you has left you with just as slutty a lifestyle (man or woman can both be sluts) just as little self control and the systemic issues that led you to act it out without contraception or resulting in thinking you could not reproduce and raise or give the child up for adoption are all still there.

Think twice before hitting third base with someone, the pressure to have sex disappears later in life for a reason and I do not mean menopause. When people are more mature, they start to realise that penetrative sex is fine, it is a good addition to first and second base and is a nice experience if done right. You do not need to engage in unsafe sex to enjoy life. Get out of gangbang culture and any unsafe variant if swinging culture if you can. These ways of life are ruining people emotionally.
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#16
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@RationalMadman
My sex life is great, thanks. I don't need or welcome your advice, or your implication that you know when/where/how I have sex based on my comments in this thread.

So your belief is the standard "consent to sex is consent to pregnancy" it seems. Consent has to be given to someone. Tell me, while I'm undressing (and giving consent to sex to the man in front of me) who am I giving the consent to pregnancy to? 


#17
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@Shila
It was never legal or moral to abort slaves. Roe V. Wade was passed way after slavery was abolished. 
It was legal and condidered socially ethically acceptable in the past. Ethnosupremacist slavery is, in fact, a deeply human impulse and has been culturally around from Ancient Egypt if nit before in less recorded variants.

It is up to us to fight that impulse and be decent.
#18
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@Uragirimono
So is my  "natural instinct as part of an evolutionary survival of the fittest trait" broken because I don't want children?
It's not broken at all. Nature removes that urge at times, especially when the environment is overpopulated. It doesn't necessarily mean you are unfit  to continue the species in an evolutionary sense.
#19
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@Uragirimono
We make laws on things people disagree about morally all the time
If the law of the land made any type of murder legal, I am confident that you would take up arms against the criminal regime that passed said law.

Things don't become legal just because they're "legal". Within reason, at least, there is a higher law to which national and constitutional law must conform. Perhaps it's not a divine law from a deity but there is something from whatever source that must be considered to apply.

With respect to a "moral minority", if I were the only person in the entire United States who understood abortion to be murder, my ethical mandate to enforce this understanding on the country would not be the least bit diminished. Only my practical ability would be. You cannot vote away people's right to be alive and, again, it's not possible for any such law to be valid.
#20
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@Uragirimono
The irresponsible pregnancy would speak for itself, it is a shame the men can stay anonymous as the shame is actually a good motivator to gain self control.

The reason I matured since being some impulsive, arrogant teen is that the shame and lack of ego associated with being a purely impulsive idiot motivated me to grow into a mature adult and even then it is a constant reminder and demotivator for me to be an impulsive anarchic fool. I am sure without laws and public opinion that we would be wild primates like chimpanzees, no order or ethics beyond compulsive ocd or impulsive empathy.

We are our rawer selves as children and teens as well as very young adults. It is the urge to be proud of who we are and ashamed of the vices we give into that pushes us to slowly and gradually mature constantly until we hit that age when very elderly where we again stop giving a fuck.

Condoms only fail if ripped, logically. Which partner ripped it or was the product manufactures subpar to be sold? If it was a size thing, I maybe somewhat get it but really to kill a human solves very little of your issues as a man ir woman.
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#21
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@Greyparrot
Awesome. So how am I to act on my instinct to not reproduce if I am denied abortion care?
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#22
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@RationalMadman
I didn't say the condom ripped. It could have, or the pill could've malfunctioned, or half a dozen other things that can lead to an unplanned pregnancy. 

But that's not my point. I consent to sex by saying "yes" to the man I'm having sex with. 
If I'm also consenting to pregnancy in the same moment, who am I saying "yes" to?
#23
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@Uragirimono
Awesome. So how am I to act on my instinct to not reproduce if I am denied abortion care?
Use alternative means.

Just like people who have an natural urge to rape people. Use alternative means to satisfy those urges.
#24
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@Uragirimono
So your belief is the standard "consent to sex is consent to pregnancy" it seems. Consent has to be given to someone. Tell me, while I'm undressing (and giving consent to sex to the man in front of me) who am I giving the consent to pregnancy to? 
You do not get to consent your way out of biology. Laws of science trump (pun unintended) social conventions. Get a contraceptive device, pill ir someyhing if you are deadset on non-condom sex.

I am not a conservative, I do not have anything against healthy indulgence in porn, masturbation and foreplay. 

If you want to have penetrative sex, be fully aware of the consequences. If not, it would be eugenics for me to encourage you to remove your genepool, irresponsible or not, from our species.

I am not bere to debate as such, this thread asked for a non-religious reason to oppose abortion. I aced it from my first post.
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#25
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@Swagnarok
Things definitely become legal just because they're legal. 
There may still be moral questions, but legality determines legality. Governments determine legality, not some higher unnamed power. 

The laws of the US already make certain kinds of killing legal, so we as a culture have already established that killing is okay sometimes. We just disagree on when those times are. Which the question I'm trying to answer -- why, without religious appeals, is killing an unwelcome fetus something we should legislate?
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#26
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@RationalMadman
Biology makes pregnancy an outcome of sex, yes. 
Biology makes lung cancer an outcome of smoking. 

We don't tell cancer patients "you consented to smoking and now are denied all healthcare to change your condition."
We do tell pregnant people "you consented to sex so you are now denied all healthcare to change your condition."

What's the difference between those two situations?
#27
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@Uragirimono
This boils down to the ultimate question of "Without God, why should we recognize morality"? Even citing societal majorities in favor of value X or value Y is meaningless, as valuing the opinions of others or respecting the legitimacy of laws is itself a moral convention that can be disregarded if morality doesn't objectively exist.

Many, even if not most, atheists choose to reject this notion and instead suppose that morality does exist, even if they can't explain from whence it originated. Were I to convert tomorrow, I would be one of them.
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#28
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@Greyparrot
Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy and healthcare. 
I've tried to sterilize myself for years and am repeatedly denied. 
I use contraceptives, but those aren't 100%. 

What other alternatives would you recommend?
#29
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@Swagnarok
Morality existed long before religion as instinctual herd behaviors common in many mammals.
#30
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@Uragirimono
Have you tried mechanical stimulators?