Ugly vs Attractive

Author: TWS1405
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#61
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@Shila
You're still proving how ignorant you are of world history. 

Ancient and medieval colonialism was practiced by the Phoenicians, the Greeks, the Turks, and the Arabs.
Colonialism in the modern sense began with the "Age of Discovery", led by Portuguese, who became increasingly adventuresome following the conquest of Ceuta in 1415, aiming to control navigation through the Strait of Gibraltar, expand Christianity, obtain plunder, and suppress predation on Portuguese populations by Barbary pirates as part of a longstanding African slave trade; at that point a minor trade, one the Portuguese would soon reverse and surpass. Around 1450, based on North African fishing boats, a lighter ship was developed, the caravel, which could sail further and faster,[1] was highly maneuverable, and could sail "into the wind".
#62
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@Shila
Exactly what I meant about cherry picking.


So, such and such happened and everything else is temporarily irrelevant.


It's like saying that heavy snow brought down the power lines, but because you are cold and without power now, it's the fault of the power company for not fixing in quickly enough. The cause of the problem is conveniently forgotten and therefore irrelevant.
#63
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@Ehyeh
Men tend to be more attracted to more neonotenous traits in women, such as larger eyes and just in general, youthful features. I can't remember where I read it, and I can't seem to find it now.
I agree with this anyway.

Although most men do see strong bone structures as masculine. A woman can have high cheekbones and still look feminine. She can even have a jawline and look feminine. It's just harder to pull it off on average, it seems.
I Google searched for "supermodels", and I don't see many women with strong bone structures. There are certainly high cheekbones, of which I think is more attractive, but I just don't see evidence for the claim that female models have strong bone structures (your original claim).

A weak chin does not necessarily make a girl look more attractive than a well-developed one, but it certainly does not make her look more masculine to have a weak chin. A weak chin on a man makes him look more feminine on average. Which just means a woman can get away with having a weak chin or a negative canthal tilt easier than a man can, as it doesn't change their sexual dimorphism profile.
This is a part I don't agree with. Weak chins (I'm talking about recessed chins) look ugly on both women and men. Even women would look better with masculine chins than weak chins, because at least it's not a recessed chin. There is nothing feminine or masculine about them -- they just look ugly.

I suspect that the ugliness of recessed chins comes from the poor health outcomes it has, but I've never looked into it too much. I've just always thought it's obviously ugly.
#64
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@zedvictor4
You now seem to be focusing on sexual attraction, rather than physical attraction. Ultimately one and the same perhaps.
They are the same and I've been arguing with that assumption the entire thread. If you don't think so, quote me from anywhere in the thread.

Though to suggest that social manipulation of the latter does not affect the former is a ridiculous position.
It doesn't affect it nearly as much as you've argued, and it certainly doesn't dictate that much. What people consider to be physically attractive is set in stone for most people. There's no amount of social manipulation that would make a recessed chin more attractive than a normal one.

And with regard to our interaction, it was you who initially addressed my argument, and if I do not necessarily agree with your arguments you have every opportunity to try again. Such is the mental stimulation I get from responding to your commentary, so that is why I bother.
My gripe with you had nothing to do with disagreement. My gripe with you had everything to do with not responding to what I wrote.

Need I point out the irony here?
#65
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@Avery
Yes.

Please point out the irony, as it might help to clarify things.


My contention as ever, is that humans are prone to take base instinct and apply conceptuality and therefore apply socio-psychological modifications to decisions.

Read through my posts and you will see that I always try to temper such arguments with the understanding that all such modifications are nonetheless natural derivatives of base instinct. Human evolution if you like.

So, in simple terms base instinct was/is see it fuck it.

Whereas today, we apply the see it, think about it, might or might not fuck it approach.

So based on that simple assessment I would conclude that a response is no longer based solely upon an instinctive reaction but is always subject to a certain level of conditioned socio-psychological influence.

So, to put that in simple terms, we see, we think, and we decide what is or isn't attractive.
#66
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@zedvictor4
Yes.

Please point out the irony, as it might help to clarify things.
In your case, I don't think it will.

My contention as ever, is that humans are prone to take base instinct and apply conceptuality and therefore apply socio-psychological modifications to decisions.
I'm telling you that the base instinct involves sexual selection, too. People can recognize instantly whether someone is attractive or not. That calculation is done instinctually. They don't have to deliberate or pontificate. They take one look and know.

At a glance, people find overweight people unattractive. At a glance, people a recessed chin is ugly. None of the social conditioning or whatever phrase you use overrides these facts on "base instinct".

So, in simple terms base instinct was/is see it fuck it.
Indiscriminate sex has never been part of human psychology. Not now, not ever.
#67
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@Avery
And I differentiate between base instinct and acquired behaviour.

And sexual attraction at base level is a separate issue to physical attraction at a socio-conceptual level

The stag fucks every doe irrespective of looks, and without the need for overthink.


And indiscriminate sex is more relative to the human condition than it is to most other species.

Indiscriminate sex is the outcome of overthink rather than the outcome of base physiology.

That is to say that humans have developed the practice of copulating when it not necessary to do so.

Recreational sex as it were.
#68
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@zedvictor4
--> @Avery
And I differentiate between base instinct and acquired behaviour.

And sexual attraction at base level is a separate issue to physical attraction at a socio-conceptual level

The stag fucks every doe irrespective of looks, and without the need for overthink.


And indiscriminate sex is more relative to the human condition than it is to most other species.

Indiscriminate sex is the outcome of overthink rather than the outcome of base physiology.

That is to say that humans have developed the practice of copulating when it not necessary to do so.

Recreational sex as it were.
You must have spent a lot of time comparing your sex impulses to that of animals. The only way you could have done that study was to engage in sex with them to record the differences. You called that recreational sex. Others would beg to differ.

#69
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@Shila
And you just sank to the depths of stupidity and jibing.

Which diminishes the credibility that I once openly supported.
#70
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--> @Shila
And you just sank to the depths of stupidity and jibing.

Which diminishes the credibility that I once openly supported.
Your expertise is with animals.
Read your post to Avery.

--> @Avery
And I differentiate between base instinct and acquired behaviour.

And sexual attraction at base level is a separate issue to physical attraction at a socio-conceptual level

The stag fucks every doe irrespective of looks, and without the need for overthink.


And indiscriminate sex is more relative to the human condition than it is to most other species.

Indiscriminate sex is the outcome of overthink rather than the outcome of base physiology.

That is to say that humans have developed the practice of copulating when it not necessary to do so.

Recreational sex as it were.
You must have spent a lot of time comparing your sex impulses to that of animals. The only way you could have done that study was to engage in sex with them to record the differences. You called that recreational sex. Others would beg to differ.



#71
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@Avery
How is TWS's existence affecting the physical attractiveness of people? What about TWS makes people overeat or be born with down syndrome? 
It's not. His issue is him binding his own damn business about what other people do and are. He has no right (in society) to be commenting on someone else when there are certainly things in his life he could criticized for equally compared to those peoples. Why does he care that there are ugly people? How does it affect him in his daily life? Does he immediately get disgusted by their appearance by a look? If that's the case, it's a him problem because 98% of the population DO NOT care about a bystanders looks enough to comment, therefore it is a him issue that needs evaluated by a professional psychologist
#72
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@Vader
--> @Avery
How is TWS's existence affecting the physical attractiveness of people? What about TWS makes people overeat or be born with down syndrome? 
It's not. His issue is him binding his own damn business about what other people do and are. He has no right (in society) to be commenting on someone else when there are certainly things in his life he could criticized for equally compared to those peoples. Why does he care that there are ugly people? How does it affect him in his daily life? Does he immediately get disgusted by their appearance by a look? If that's the case, it's a him problem because 98% of the population DO NOT care about a bystanders looks enough to comment, therefore it is a him issue that needs evaluated by a professional psychologist
TWS’s profile tells us he was forced to retire at 45. It is possible his professional psychologist found him unfit to work. So he spends his time venting out and throwing insults at his own reflection or projecting onto others what he hates about himself.

#73
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@Shila
#70

Not worthy of reply.
#74
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@zedvictor4
And I differentiate between base instinct and acquired behaviour.
There's no amount of "acquired behaviour" for women that makes a 500lbs, 5'2, recessed chin, acne-riddled man attractive to them.

And sexual attraction at base level is a separate issue to physical attraction at a socio-conceptual level
Physical attraction extends from sexual attraction.

And indiscriminate sex is more relative to the human condition than it is to most other species.

Indiscriminate sex is the outcome of overthink rather than the outcome of base physiology.

That is to say that humans have developed the practice of copulating when it not necessary to do so.

Recreational sex as it were.
People choose recreational sex partners based on sexual selection, of which is precisely the same system they use for choosing someone to make children with.

This is still sexual selection at play. This is still not indiscriminate sex.
#75
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@Vader
His issue is him binding his own damn business about what other people do and are. He has no right (in society) to be commenting on someone else when there are certainly things in his life he could criticized for equally compared to those peoples. Why does he care that there are ugly people? How does it affect him in his daily life? Does he immediately get disgusted by their appearance by a look?
Why do you talk of rights? Do you need "rights" to have opinions or thoughts? Of course not lol.

None of your other questions are relevant to the validity of what he is saying, so they can all be ignored.

Btw: you can criticize people, whilst being a massive hypocrite, and still be correct. A fatso calling others fatsos is still correct.

If that's the case, it's a him problem because 98% of the population DO NOT care about a bystanders looks enough to comment, therefore it is a him issue that needs evaluated by a professional psychologist
People judge each other's appearances all the time, it's just some people are more honest and open about it than others.

But it's a cute little virtue-signal you have going on. I bet it's convincing everyone.
#76
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@zedvictor4
-> @Shila
Exactly what I meant about cherry picking.


So, such and such happened and everything else is temporarily irrelevant.


It's like saying that heavy snow brought down the power lines, but because you are cold and without power now, it's the fault of the power company for not fixing in quickly enough. The cause of the problem is conveniently forgotten and therefore irrelevant.
You are not very bright. You already declared it's the fault of the power company for not fixing in quickly enough.
The weather is not responsible for fixing the power lines.
#77
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@Shila
As I said.

Such is human expectation.
#78
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@zedvictor4
--> @Shila
As I said.

Such is human expectation.
Nothing in your profile suggests you are human. All the identifiers are marked “unknown”.

#79
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@Shila
Perhaps I'm a clever rabbit.
#80
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@zedvictor4
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Perhaps I'm a clever rabbit
Nothing in your profile suggests you are human or a rabbit. All the identifiers are marked “unknown”.

#81
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@Shila
I only said perhaps.
#82
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@zedvictor4
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I only said perhaps.
If you cannot confirm, it remains unknown.

#83
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@Shila
For sure.

So can you confirm that you are indeed a Female, French Canadian Catholic of the species Homo sapiens.
#84
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@zedvictor4
--> @Shila
For sure.

So can you confirm that you are indeed a Female, French Canadian Catholic of the species Homo sapiens.
I confirmed my identity by filling out the  required information where as you declared all your information “unknown”.

Topic's author
#85
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@Shila
TWS’s profile tells us he was forced to retire at 45. It is possible his professional psychologist found him unfit to work. So he spends his time venting out and throwing insults at his own reflection or projecting onto others what he hates about himself.
Atrial Fibrillation and high blood pressure (cardiovascular conditions) =/= psychological issues. And you're one to talk about psychological projection. It's your forte.  
#86
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@TWS1405
--> @Shila
TWS’s profile tells us he was forced to retire at 45. It is possible his professional psychologist found him unfit to work. So he spends his time venting out and throwing insults at his own reflection or projecting onto others what he hates about himself.
Atrial Fibrillation and high blood pressure (cardiovascular conditions) =/= psychological issues. And you're one to talk about psychological projection. It's your forte.  
Sorry to hear you were forced to retire because of poor health. You mentioned Atrial Fibrillation and high blood pressure (cardiovascular conditions).

But spending your time venting out and throwing insults at your own reflection or projecting onto others what you hate about yourself is a mental issue that you also suffer from.
Topic's author
#87
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@Shila
Sorry to hear you were forced to retire because of poor health. You mentioned Atrial Fibrillation and high blood pressure (cardiovascular conditions).

But spending your time venting out and throwing insults at your own reflection or projecting onto others what you hate about yourself is a mental issue that you also suffer from.
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#88
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@Shila
Nope, you suggested an identity, which may or may not be accurate.

And Debateart declares that my identity is unknown. 

We are basically the same, just two unidentified sources of data input.
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#89
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@SkepticalOne
-->@TWS1405
OP associates humans value with attractiveness. I think this overlooks a few things. What of intelligence, compassion, empathy, courage, ingenuity, etc? I mean, if beauty is the only standard, then humanity is going to be worse off in the long run...also, eugenics is fucked-up elitist thinking.
Physical "attractiveness" has ZERO to do with intelligence, compassion, empathy, courage, etc. etc. etc. 

Physical "attractiveness" is what FIRST lures us to another person...all else comes after the fact. 

Boy meets girl, girl is physically smoking hot! Girl thinks boy is incredibly handsome. Both say to themselves after a few dates, "Even if he/she gets fact, ugly, loses all his/her teeth and smells bad...so long as he/she has intelligence, compassion, empathy, courage, ingenuity, etc., ... he/she is my soulmate for life!" Sad no one ever!!!

The fact that we did not stop degenerates from procreating has led us to the epidemic of the mental health, health care and crime crisis that we have had and continue to have that has only gotten worse since the psych hospitals were forced to shut down. 
#90
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@TWS1405
Physical "attractiveness" has ZERO to do with intelligence, compassion, empathy, courage, etc. etc. etc. 
Agreed - and that's the point: These attributes stand apart from attractiveness and add value to humanity nonetheless. 


Boy meets girl, girl is physically smoking hot! Girl thinks boy is incredibly handsome. Both say to themselves after a few dates, "Even if he/she gets fact, ugly, loses all his/her teeth and smells bad...so long as he/she has intelligence, compassion, empathy, courage, ingenuity, etc., ... he/she is my soulmate for life!" Sad no one ever!!!

It happens all the time. People often commit to each other for "better or worse". It's like you've never seen a wedding vow. I bet you would really scratch your head at a beautiful woman with a not so beautiful man, but, again, this happens all the time. Not everyone is so vain and egotistical that they would dismiss potential partners because they aren't fit for magazine covers. Besides, beauty is in the eye of the beholder (its not an objective measure) and there are other factors that might be more crucial.


The fact that we did not stop degenerates from procreating has led us to the epidemic of the mental health, health care and crime crisis that we have had [...]
That is quite the claim. Could it be the frequency of mental health issues has not changed, but awareness is higher? Or perhaps, frequency of health care issues and crime has increased because of unique factors straining all aspects of modern society like, say, a worldwide pandemic? Suffice to say, I question your assumptions and your conclusion.