Every pro-lifer always, without fail, gets it wrong on abortion.

Author: TWS1405

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CoolApe
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@zedvictor4
I'm assuming your using a 28 day embryo as a reference for when you think a difference exists between the entity at birth and the embryo. 

If you believe the cut-off date is at 28 days, then this well before the point the point of viability and you have given up a lot of ground.

I strongly disagree that any date several weeks or a even a dozen weeks before viability makes a difference on the personhood of the prebirth. 

Shila
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@CoolApe
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I'm assuming your using a 28 day embryo as a reference for when you think a difference exists between the entity at birth and the embryo. 

If you believe the cut-off date is at 28 days, then this well before the point the point of viability and you have given up a lot of ground.

I strongly disagree that any date several weeks or a even a dozen weeks before viability makes a difference on the personhood of the prebirth. 
Odd that you gave your birthday as 2010 which makes you 12 years old. What is a 12 year old showing interest in fetus viability?

CoolApe
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@Shila

Shila, Can you tell me everything that is funny about this photo?

Sorry guys for derailing the thread a little.
Shila
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@CoolApe
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Shila, Can you tell me everything that is funny about this photo?
It looks like you would rather be in Florida than Ukraine.
Sorry guys for derailing the thread a little.


Uragirimono
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@Lemming
People don't like it when parents kill their children.
I asked you earlier if you, Lemming, would tell me specifically that I have to be trapped in a pregnancy because you do not see me as being trapped. Did I miss your answer to that?

Let's narrow the conversation down from "people" to you and I. If I am pregnant and tell you "I don't want to be pregnant, I feel trapped" are you comfortable telling me "I don't see you as trapped and therefore you must stay as you are"? 
zedvictor4
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@CoolApe
Semantics and ethics can vary, relative to conditioned sensibilities and established ideas.

I could have said 26 days, I could have said 29 days. And the same differences would be apparent to me.

You say personhood, I say human embryonic tissue.

Just as I would say bovine embryonic tissue and make no distinction between the life within a calf and the life within a human.

Nonetheless a lot of selectively moral pro-lifers will happily kill and consume a calf.

Just as they will be content in the righteousness of slaying their enemy on the battlefield.

Such are conditioned sensibilities and consequent moral contradictions.

And there are still distinct differences between a 29-day embryo and a 9-month foetus.

Whereas a 9-month foetus and a new-born baby are distinctly similar.
Best.Korea
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To TWsomething,

Listen here pal. Shila is not a bot. You are just mad Shila is right and you are wrong.

Also, I think abortion can be done with a tactical nuclear weapon. Yes, it would kill the parents too. So what? They would die anyway one day.
Public-Choice
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@TWS1405
A born human being is an actualized human being.

What about 3 minutes before birth? Is it a human being then?
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@Public-Choice
I don't claim to know the makeup of the soul, just that science has found evidence it is there.
The “evidence” of the study you cited was compiled by weighing bodies and noting that dead ones inexplicably weigh less. If this is evidence of a soul then it necessarily follows that souls have weight, which would make them physical.

You can’t claim something is evidence when the implication of said evidence contradicts the claim it is supposed to be supporting.
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Are there any arguments for abortion (pro choice), that someone can give me directly? Give me the syllogism, please, because I cannot detect a single argument in this thread that I can work with. 
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Dear Noobvice,

Even if arguments were given, you would not understand them. So stop asking.
Shila
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Novice_II: Are there any arguments for abortion (pro choice), that someone can give me directly? Give me the syllogism, please, because I cannot detect a single argument in this thread that I can work with.

Raising a child is a bigger commitment than consenting to have sex. The person has to be prepared to raise, care and provide for the child which requires adequate financial, psychological, emotional maturity to undertake this  commitment. So unless the person is adequately equipped and prepared Abortion should be an option to prevent a lifetime of suffering and hardship on the child and parent.
Abortion was legal for 5 decades and it worked as a solution for the unprepared and unwilling.
With the world  population heading to 8 billion. There is no need to force the unwanted to be born. Learn to love and support what is already out there.

Nothing has changed in society or morals. Yet a settled law on abortion rights was reversed.

All these arguments were considered and abortion was declared legal for the last fifty years.
It is silly to re-litigate what was settled law for over fifty years.
What is different is the makeup of the Supreme Court . The decision was not based on any change in facts but was solely politically driven.

Uragirimono
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@Lemming
People don't like it when parents kill their children.
I spent the entire night thinking about this line. It sums up the folly of pro-life to me, as I don't believe that anyone truly thinks embryos and children are equal. 

Let's pretend we could somehow lock the pro-lifers on this thread in a burning building. The room to your left contains an 8 year old. The room to the right contains 40 stored embryos. You only have time to save one room before everyone in the building dies. If everyone that says "an embryo is the same as a child" truly believes that, then they would save the 40 stored embryos without hesitation. 40 to 1, right? The choice is obvious. 

I do not believe that anyone, in the heat of a life or death moment, would choose to abandon an 8 year old kid to save 40 embryos, not even if the person making the decision were the mother of the child and the embryos. Because, in life or death moments our true beliefs act themselves out in a way they don't on debate forums. On debate forums we say things that make ourselves look and feel good -- in life or death moments we act as the person we truly are beneath all the decorations. 

In fact, I daresay most people would actively try to a save a dog before they'd prioritize saving the 40 embryos. 

This is an extreme example, but it makes my point. No one truly believes that an embryo is a child. In every other aspect of life what we are now is more significant than what we will be in 9 months. I can't vote just because I'll be 18 in 9 months. I can't sleep with a minor just because they'll be an adult in 9 months. I can't drink just because I'll be 21 in 9 months. Pro-lifers ONLY argue that the future equals the present in abortion debates, which to me says they don't actually believe it even then. 

I originally asked for non-religious opinions because I associated the self-delusion I always see in pro-life arguments with religion. I have definitely learned something, as apparently the non-religious are just as capable of self-delusion as the religious. That's not directed at you specifically, but more so pro-lifers at large. You're the only person who has admitted the validity of some of my points even if you don't like them. You haven't told me if you'd be comfortable dictating the use of a woman's uterus if you were speaking to her directly, though, so I am bemused by your willingness to discuss things inasmuch as they stay in the realm of theory. 
Shila
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@Uragirimono
I spent the entire night thinking about this line. It sums up the folly of pro-life to me, as I don't believe that anyone truly thinks embryos and children are equal. 

Let's pretend we could somehow lock the pro-lifers on this thread in a burning building. The room to your left contains an 8 year old. The room to the right contains 40 stored embryos. You only have time to save one room before everyone in the building dies. If everyone that says "an embryo is the same as a child" truly believes that, then they would save the 40 stored embryos without hesitation. 40 to 1, right? The choice is obvious. 

I do not believe that anyone, in the heat of a life or death moment, would choose to abandon an 8 year old kid to save 40 embryos, not even if the person making the decision were the mother of the child and the embryos. Because, in life or death moments our true beliefs act themselves out in a way they don't on debate forums. On debate forums we say things that make ourselves look and feel good -- in life or death moments we act as the person we truly are beneath all the decorations. 

In fact, I daresay most people would actively try to a save a dog before they'd prioritize saving the 40 embryos. 
A true pro-life person would try to save the 40 embryos instead of the single child. The single child can easily be replaced by 40 others.
Pro-lifers do not see a single abortion in isolation. They see the millions of fetuses destroyed and just like the example of choosing one over the 40. Pro-lifers want to save the millions.

Uragirimono
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@Shila
A true pro-life person would try to save the 40 embryos instead of the single child. The single child can easily be replaced by 40 others.
This is a true statement. A true pro-life would let the child die to save the embryos. My point was there are no true pro-lifers, because no one would make that choice in the example I gave. 

Pro-lifers want to save the millions.
Lol, that is exactly my point. Pro-lifers have a savior complex, and think the warm fuzzies they get from "saving babies" is of more importance than the rights of the women they stomp all over in the process. There are thousands of people groups that need saving, yet no one is out picketing and passing laws to save those groups. Pro-choicers realize that starting from a place of "I need to save them" when no one asked for their help is sanctimonious at best. We acknowledge that difficult decisions are best made by the people who will be affected by those decisions, not by self-righteous people that think they have a right to judge another's choices.
Lemming
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@Uragirimono
I 'did reply to your trapped question,
First in a reply where I had misread your meaning,
And thought you meant 'I would be trapped by logic, to no longer be Pro Life,
If I no longer thought an unborn was equal to a born.

The 2nd reply, in which I clarified I had misread your post,
But then stated 'even if a person pregnant felt trapped,
I'd be uncomfortable letting them terminate their unborn at certain stages.

If a mother was 10 minutes from birth, fully formed ready for birth unborn,
And she said nah, I suddenly don't want to,
.
I find myself unable to consider her right to choose, more important that the unborn's life.

If there was a high chance of the mother dying in the pregnancy,
Her right to choose would be more important to me than the unborn's life,
Though I'd still be uncomfortable killing the unborn, and rather the risk be taken,
I would see it as the mother's choice.

. . .

The further from full development an unborn get's,
Such as before it's brain forms,
I'd be willing to see it as the mother's choice,
Though I'd still be uncomfortable with the unborn being terminated.

. . .

Personally I think a large problem in this discussion, are the terms Pro Life and Pro Choice,
And I've said this before,
Many people are 'willing, though uncomfortable to compromise.

But I find myself unable to compromise with people who are 'too Pro Choice,
I'm 'also unable to compromise with people too Pro Life,
But I'm not being given the option to disagree with the extremes,
I'm only given the option to be Pro Life or Pro Choice.

There 'are situations where I'd be willing to accept that women get abortions,
There are situations I'd be unwilling to accept women get abortions.

I've been asked a similar question before by 3RU7AL in #265 Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows. (debateart.com),
I'm glad to be asked it again,
Not because I think my answer right,
But because it is valuable to let some time pass, then consider questions again.
I also avoided 'answering 'directly last time, I'll 'try more directly this time.
. . .

But no, I hesitate, before choosing the 8 year old, though I 'do choose the 8 year old.
Don't feel a need to read the below, just rambling.
. . .
There's 'something in the question,
Quantity vs Quality. 'Maybe.

Were there 2 adults, one severely mentally handicapped to the intelligence of a toddler,
Would I choose the adult more intelligent, more a person, or the adult more innocent, needing protection.

Were there a member of my family and 2 strangers, I'd choose my family.

Were there a friend and 2 strangers, I'd choose my friend.

Were there a friend and 1000 strangers, they'd have to be one heck of a close friend for me to choose my friend.

Of course these are more advanced humans than an embryo. . . Question of value. . .

I say earlier in this post, the further development get's to an embryo, the further I feel uncomfortable curtailing the mother's freedom of choice, to the point I'd step out of the question and leave it for others to decide,
Though the discomfort of destroying an embryo 'never truly leaves me.

Likewise the further development get's a newborn, the further I feel uncomfortable allowing the mother unlimited freedom of choice, to the point I am unwilling to let the law give her unlimited freedom of choice.

. . .

It's a painful question, the Trolley,
Hm, no, I don't think I managed to directly answer the question, if anything my indecision has 'grown over considering it and the value of human life.
Some might say I directly answered it by choosing the 8 year old, but they might not see my underlying thoughts and logic,
Conclusions I come to,
That it's best to 'avoid ever allowing trolley situations to occur in 'real life,
Though they are still valuable theoretical considerations.
Uragirimono
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@Lemming
The 2nd reply, in which I clarified I had misread your post,
But then stated 'even if a person pregnant felt trapped,
I'd be uncomfortable letting them terminate their unborn at certain stages.
You're right I missed this reply. Apologies.


If a mother was 10 minutes from birth, fully formed ready for birth unborn,
And she said nah, I suddenly don't want to,
Rest assured, this is not happening anywhere. No mother is offing their child 10 minutes before birth. 10 minutes before birth, in most cases, is active labor. 

I welcome strange scenarios and extreme examples to make foundational points, such as my building on fire scenario proving we innately value the born over the unborn.

I would, however, recommend valuing real scenarios (such as women dying in childbirth, or children dying in utero) over imaginary scenarios such as offing the child in the middle of labor. Those two scenarios cannot be given equal consideration because one is happening in the real world and the other is only in the realm of our wonderings and musings. If you aren't unsure of what's really happening and what's not really happening, I invite you to look for information from involved parties -- women, gynocologists, abortion clinic workers, etc.


Though I'd still be uncomfortable killing the unborn, and rather the risk be taken,
I would see it as the mother's choice.
Welcome to being pro-choice. 

No one is saying that all pro-choicers are comfortable with every woman's decision. No one is saying that all pro-choicers celebrate abortions. 

Being pro-choice is acknowledging that in spite of my discomfort the choice is not mine. Pro-choice is saying "I don't agree with you, but that doesn't matter." Being pro-choice is saying "I don't think you're facing enough risk to terminate the pregnancy, but since it is your pregnancy and not mine, I do not get to determine what level of risk you must endure. That choice belongs to you and you alone."


to the point I'd step out of the question and leave it for others to decide,
I humbly invite you to consider why you think you'd ever have a right to step into the question.

As I said above, I'm not saying you have to like it, feel comfortable with it, agree with it, or morally support it. I am saying that your likes, your feelings, your morals have no place in the decisions of others. By stepping into the question you are asserting in that moment "My feelings/like/morals are now important enough for me to dictate them to you whether you share them or not".  The arrogance of such a statement is significant.

let the law give her unlimited freedom of choice.
Even if the law gave the mother the unlimited freedom of choice, she'll still need a doctor. She can't abort by herself, so her options will still be regulated by the opinions of someone versed in medicine (both the science and the ethics). This is why the extreme "offing a kid ten minutes before birth" is such nonsense. Doctors won't do that even if there was an insane woman who wanted them to. It baffles me that pro-lifers get so hung up on a thing that never happens in real life. 

Personally I think a large problem in this discussion, are the terms Pro Life and Pro Choice
I think there's some truth to this, to be sure, but it's mainly a lack of communication problem. 

Pro-lifers central hang-up on the term pro-choice seems to be that they believe we're advocating for choice without bounds, even the bounds of reality. They routinely ignore the facts of gestation, the laws surrounding bodily autonomy, and the lived experiences of others so they don't realize we value those things. We opt for choice within the facts of science, within the consistency of the law. Your example of "aborting" a kid ten minutes before birth has nothing to do with being pro-choice, because 1) it ignores the science of how birth works 2) it ignores current medical ethics codes and 3) it's not a thing that's really happening. 

Pro-choicers central hang up on the term pro-life is that the stance inherently values one life over another so the term is a misnomer. You can't tell someone "your life matters so little to me that I feel I should get to dictate how you live it" and then say "but we just value life". Pro-lifers value the fetus's life over the mother's almost without exception, so pro-life should really be more like "pro-fetus" or "pro-baby". Add in the fact that pro-lifers usually don't support laws that would make life better for the child they insist has to be born, and pro-choicers end up wondering what "life" they're even "pro" about. 

Lemming
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@Uragirimono
Thank you for the invitation, but I shall currently continue to refer to myself as Pro Life.

Statistics and sources 'are a huge weak point for me,
Not just regarding abortions, but for knowledge in general.

A coworker of mine liked to joke, no uterus, no opinion,
That's true in a way, false in another.
My 2nd brother's body is his own,
But when he is 'literally, I'll say it again, 'literally insane from meth use,
And highly addicted to it,
I 'deeply feel bad, that I do not break the law and try to get him sane and unaddicted off it,
Though it's likely he would hate me for it, and go back to meth anyway, still have values I disagree with.
. . .
I think it's too bad, that in Oregon we can't have him involuntarily admitted, until sane.

When a person is bullying another, or kicking a dog, beating their child,
It is not my body involved, just theirs,
But that's not true,
I receive sensory information of the seen,
My body 'is being effected.
And morally, a question is being offered.
The unfortunate part though, is that stepping into some situations, will only make it worse,
Though 'other situations can be stepped into, or stepped differently.
. . .

Earlier in a thread I mentioned Mencius,
He has an example about human nature, and a child in danger of falling into a well

"The reason why I say that all humans have hearts that are not unfeeling toward others is this. Suppose someone suddenly saw a child about to fall into a well: anyone in such a situation would have a feeling of alarm and compassion—not because one sought to get in good with the child’s parents, not because one wanted fame among one’s neighbors and friends, and not because one would dislike the sound of the child’s cries. From this we can see that if one is without the feeling of compassion, one is not human." - Mencius

I think he's wrong in his conclusions, there are alternate reasons one might act or not act, and even if not caring not acting, would still be human.
But that's semantics on my part.
. . .
What matters is the normative response for me, and people I tribe with,
To be expected 'is to be concerned, to help the child,
Even if the child complains they want to play by the well.

. . .

I'm pretty sure people can kill the unborn without the help of a doctor.

. . .

I do not mean the below as arguments that I am correct,
As I said earlier, statistics and sources are a 'Huge weak point for me in knowledge,
But I 'do mean them as an argument of why 'I am less than certain that Pro Choice is as Pro 'life as it claims.

"Defenders of late-term abortion frequently make the assertion that late-term abortions are “almost always” carried out in cases of severe fetal abnormality or danger to the mother’s life. In reality, the concept of “medical necessity” in the context of late-term abortion is misleading, and many late-term abortions are elective, frequently complicated by coercion, indecision and partner abandonment. In reporting on the results of a study of late-term abortions in 2013 (Foster, Kimport) in the journal Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, a publication of the pro-choice Guttmacher Institute, the authors acknowledge that “data suggests that most women seeking later terminations are not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment.”  Using interviews and questionnaires, the authors compared 272 women who obtained abortions at or after 20 weeks with 169 women who had abortions prior to 20 weeks and found that the rationales cited by the two groups were essentially the same – stressful circumstances of unprepared pregnancy, single-motherhood, financial pressure, and relationship discord.  The Foster-Kimport study excluded for comparison an unidentified number of women who had abortions for reasons of life endangerment or fetal anomaly, a significant limitation.  In an April 2018 report for the Congressional Research Service, however, Dr. Foster is cited as believing “that abortions for fetal anomaly ‘make up a small minority of later abortion’ and that those for life endangerment are even harder to characterize.”

Again, not meant to convince you,
This is just a random website I clicked on.

I'm also paranoid about people lying and intentionally misrepresenting their side, not 'You,
But movements in general, also the media,
That it is difficult to 'have objective view of facts, situations.

Though I should also probably be paranoid about Pro life and Right people misrepresenting their side,
And I 'am,
It is a 'Huge problem,
I am a fair bit in low spirits, because the Right seems to have so few options expected to win, that I approve of.

Though I consider myself Independent,
I've either been drifting Right,
Or society and/or power been drifting Left,
Maybe both.

But I'd rather have a corrupt politician who advances my values,
Over a somewhat corrupt politician, who advances values opposed to my own.
Shila
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@Uragirimono
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A true pro-life person would try to save the 40 embryos instead of the single child. The single child can easily be replaced by 40 others.
This is a true statement. A true pro-life would let the child die to save the embryos. My point was there are no true pro-lifers, because no one would make that choice in the example I gave. 
Your test was to lock the pro-lifer in a burning  building.

Read your test: “we could somehow lock the pro-lifers on this thread in a burning building. The room to your left contains an 8 year old. The room to the right contains 40 stored embryos. You only have time to save one room before everyone in the building dies. If everyone that says "an embryo is the same as a child" truly believes that, then they would save the 40 stored embryos without hesitation. 40 to 1, right? The choice is obvious. ”

Pro-lifers want to save the millions.
Lol, that is exactly my point. Pro-lifers have a savior complex, and think the warm fuzzies they get from "saving babies" is of more importance than the rights of the women they stomp all over in the process. There are thousands of people groups that need saving, yet no one is out picketing and passing laws to save those groups. Pro-choicers realize that starting from a place of "I need to save them" when no one asked for their help is sanctimonious at best. We acknowledge that difficult decisions are best made by the people who will be affected by those decisions, not by self-righteous people that think they have a right to judge another's choices.
Pro-lifers want to save all life.
You contradict yourself when you claim  no one asked for their help is sanctimonious at best.and at the same time declaring “There are thousands of people groups that need saving, yet no one is out picketing and passing laws to save those groups.” But acknowledging  Pro-choicers realize that starting from a place of "I need to save them" are best made by the people who will be affected by those decisions, not by self-righteous people that think they have a right to judge another's choices.
So why is your test about locking pro-lifers in a burning building and forcing them to make life saving decisions?
Uragirimono
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@Lemming
Did you read your own study? Look at this part:

The Foster-Kimport study excluded for comparison an unidentified number of women who had abortions for reasons of life endangerment or fetal anomaly, a significant limitation.
The Foster-Kimpart study is not a study to prove that "late-term abortions" occur for reasons other than fetal anomaly and/or life endangerment. It is a study which explores when abortions are had and why and by what type of mothers.  It does not say "later term abortions are not being had for reasons of life endangerment and/or fetal anomaly." It says "that is not the group we are studying." Obviously, as the quote above indicates, that group exists, but it's not the focus of the study.

The conclusion of the study, word for word was "Bans on abortion after 20 weeks will disproportionately affect young women and women with limited financial resources." This is a pro-choice study, pointing out that abortion bans disproportionately affect the young and the poor.

 life endangerment are even harder to characterize.
This is the only part of your reply that makes sense. Yes, determining when a pregnant person is "dying enough" to warrant medical intervention is difficult. Why then, would we want anyone apart from the most trained to make that decision? Why would we want the government's input, or your input, or mine, when there are doctors in hospitals to make those decisions?
Lemming
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@Uragirimono
No, I was just looking for something to cherry pick,
Like I said, sources are a weak point for me.

But,
The article talks about 'multiple studies,
One of the main points of the article is argument that our current data is inadequate.
(I think)

It also says,

"Few states report the reasons why women choose abortion, and even fewer report those reasons by gestational age. Only Florida and Utah report the reasons given for abortions at different gestational ages, including late-term abortions. State abortion reporting is inconsistent, and some states (California, Maryland, and New Hampshire, two of them home to especially late-term abortion facilities) collect no abortion data at all. "

Utah is the Mormon state, Florida is a Right state.

. . .

I'd a agree a doctor is better suited than a not doctor, to say when a mothers life is in danger.
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@Shila
So why is your test about locking pro-lifers in a burning building and forcing them to make life saving decisions?

Because they volunteer themselves to make such grave decisions all the time. What's one more?
The entire pro-life position is founded on "I know better than you regarding this difficult decision". 

Pro-lifers want to save all life.
Then go save it. 
Out of all the people groups in the world that have pled for help, not a one of them was an unborn child. Go pay attention to the thousands begging you to and stop obsessing over the one that doesn't need or want you.
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@Lemming
I've really been respecting you, you know. 
Just casually admitting that you cherry-picked disappoints me. 
If you know it's a weak point for you, then listen to people who are strong in that area rather than clutching at straws to prove your own point. 

Utah is the Mormon state, Florida is a Right state.

I don't understand the relevance of this. I agree states don't keep the best documents on who aborts and why, but that's why we listen to things like the study you just linked. That's why we listen to women who have gone through it. That's why we listen to the doctors who have done the procedures. The stories are out there, you just have to be willing to listen and accept them. 

Back to a repeated point of mine -- live in reality long enough and you'll end up being pro-choice. Continue to live in the theoreticals and what-ifs and cozy philosophical musings if you want to stay pro-life.
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@Double_R
Well this comes down to a difference in definitions. I thought by physical you meant exists in the 3rd dimension. If you just mean exists then yeah it has weight I'm sure.

The “evidence” of the study you cited
You completely ignored the other links in their entirety, opting instead to just focus on one. The other ones are proof of people knowing events after they had died, including where objects were in a room and who was doing what to them and complete sentences. That is also very strong evidence that you chose not to focus on.

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@Uragirimono
--> @Shila
So why is your test about locking pro-lifers in a burning building and forcing them to make life saving decisions?

Because they volunteer themselves to make such grave decisions all the time. What's one more?
The entire pro-life position is founded on "I know better than you regarding this difficult decision". 
But you said they were the only ones locked in a burning building. Who were they disagreeing with?

Pro-lifers want to save all life.
Then go save it. 
Out of all the people groups in the world that have pled for help, not a one of them was an unborn child. Go pay attention to the thousands begging you to and stop obsessing over the one that doesn't need or want you.
Who else cares about life?
According to you, “There are thousands of people groups that need saving, yet no one is out picketing and passing laws to save those groups.”

Now we have pro-lifers to save those groups.

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@Uragirimono
Well, better to know a person, than not.

What's wrong with cherry picking?
I Googled "how many abortions are given late"
Looked for a webpage that supported my argument,
Looked at the arguments in the webpage to see if they made sense to me,
Used said arguments in my arguments here.

I am using our conversation to test my beliefs,
And any sources I happen to use,
If my sources are proved invalid, no matter how many I use, I'll probably change my views, some.
If my sources are proved valid, my views will strengthen,
If your sources are proved invalid, no matter how many you use, My views will strengthen,
If your sources are proved valid, I'll probably change my views, some.

I've always debated using sources in this fashion, from what I remember,
Because until I'm well read on a subject,
I'm fumbling through sources a bit blind,
It's only by grabbing and testing some, that I can gain being well read.

If I was arguing 'alone, with myself,
I'd be reading articles that disagree with me more,
But as we're debating, it's valuable for me, to use you as a test of my beliefs and sources.
Abortion is not a subject I'm well read in.

. . .

I'm doubtful of other peoples claims to knowledge in statistics and sources,
'Especially sources,
Numbers 'OFTEN do no mean what people think they mean.

I have not yet made up my opinion on the statistics or sources of Abortion Life or Choice,
Well, I 'have, being Pro Life,
But it's still something I view as needing to be questioned a lot, before I'm on comfortable footing.

Also based on the source I used,
For 'me,
Pro Choice 'claims of what is happening, becomes questionable.
. . .

Much of the media and public is too 'woke for my liking, too anti Right,
I'm of the opinion that this is warping their perceptions and realizations.
Also values.

Pro Choice, 'looks and sounds to me, Pro Death,
Too 'much people saying they can do 'whatever they want with their unborn until it's born, because choice.
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Hard to envision a pro-lifer joining the military. Even less a Christian..


Public-Choice
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@Shila
The Marine Rapper:

He's both lol
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@Public-Choice
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The Marine Rapper:

He's both lol
That is a tough act to follow.

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@Shila
That is a tough act to follow.
Howso?