Callout thread: Novice_II and debates for free wins.

Author: RationalMadman
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#1
RationalMadman
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I was completely illegitinately robbed of several free wins by Bsh1 because Ramshutu cried about me getting them from an alt of Type1.

This also led to a crackpot conspiracy theory later that me, the guy who kept telling the mods who Type1 was on his alts despite they and Ramshutu doubting and ridiculing me as they doubted it was Type1 the entire time, was actually in cohorts with him.

I had easily 7 if not more wins robbed from me.

Right now Novice is getting 12 or so free wins from Mall, whose elo is elevated because Wylted gave him a wrong win by a troll vote on a mutual FF where he gave Mall a win.

How the fuck is that better just because Mall is not a banned user, they are all letting Novice pick the debate topic and sides too?
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#2
RationalMadman
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@Barney
@whiteflame
What now, do you just lock it or realise your hypocrisy as a mod team?
#3
Public-Choice
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*Michael Jackson eating popcorn meme*
#4
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Unless it is an agreement by Mall an Novice, I see this as no problem. He is just very good as catching opportunities.

What is the actual problem?
#5
Ehyeh
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@Intelligence_06
When novice surpasses you on the leaderboard through this strategy, you may find your answer. What novice is doing would be somewhat like me and a friend on League of Legends in high elo games intentionally giving one another wins to climb the ladder. I'm dubious about Mall "consenting" to this. Lets be honest, he's either a troll or mentally deficient. In case 1 of mall being a troll it then would not be fair for Novice to be getting free wins from someone griefing debates. If its true mall is mentally deficient, he is then incapable of consenting to these debates to begin with.
#6
oromagi
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@Intelligence_06
congrats on surpassing 1800!
#7
oromagi
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I wonder where Novice learned that trick from?  In any case, can't RM beat Novice pretty much at will?  Why not just beat grab every debate Novice_II instigates and beat him into Novice_III?
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#8
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@Intelligence_06
Unless it is an agreement by Mall an Novice, I see this as no problem. He is just very good as catching opportunities.
This is identical to what I did to an alt of type1 and the resolutions were not as free.


The rules for accepting banned user debates had not been passed yet and MEEPs are not retroactive, bsh1 himself said this in the thread where he later caved in hypocritically to Ramshutu's bitching and moaning.
#9
Ehyeh
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@oromagi
That's true, you were the first to do it. You have over 100 debates. About 10 at absolute max are legitimate debates. If we're being cruel only 5 are. More than 1 in 10 of your debates are borderline rigged either through you vsing someone like mall (and farming them intentionally for elo) or vs someone you know will forfeit. 
#10
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Literally everyone in the top 10 with the exception of Benjamin and whiteflame have extremely padded records.  That's why whiteflame wont be surpassed on this site for a very long time.
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#11
RationalMadman
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@Ehyeh
Whiteflame was saved by a troll vote vs bones, do not overrate him. He can be defeated, especially on more outlandish resolutions, however he is not easy to beat regardless.
#12
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@RationalMadman
I definitely think whiteflame can be beat. All of his debates seem to be more politics/science orientated. I think he would struggle on more philosophical topics. We all have our pros and cons. Ossa appears very promising. 
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#13
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@Ehyeh
He is strongest at science for sure but I doubt he has some inherent topic weakness actually, he is even more flexible than I am because he seems to excel at trying hard at boring debates.

He also does something public-choice mentioned admiring about Oromagi elsewhere; he takes the opponent's case and dismantles it.

Whiteflame's style is severely destructive more than almost any debater I have seen. He would easily spend 70% of rebuttals dedicated to destroying his opponent rather than reinforcing his own case, even if his own case was indeed heavily attacked.

This is why he is suddenly mediocre if his opponent is more defensive and rigorous to begin with and why he gaps weak debaters so severely. He dismantles like few others, Barney does it too but with a fluidity that whiteflame does not have.

Barney and Blamonkey are two debaters that contend for best here. The others you name do not adapt like them, they are all-rounded monstrocities.
#14
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@Ehyeh
-->@oromagi
That's true, you were the first to do it. You have over 100 debates. About 10 at absolute max are legitimate debates. If we're being cruel only 5 are. More than 1 in 10 of your debates are borderline rigged either through you vsing someone like mall (and farming them intentionally for elo) or vs someone you know will forfeit. 
9 out of my debates are against debaters currently ranked in the ten slots after me.  Only one of those was a loss.  Of those ten, I've debated 6, challenged and been declined by 3 others.  Another 8 wins and 1 loss come from the next 39 debaters, but you only need to be 3 and 0 to be a top 50 fifty debater on this site.   If you want to be a high-ranked debater on this site, you must take and win a fair number of junk debates.  I don't pretend to be a great debater but I think that my record for quality debates matches or exceeds  anybody else's on this site.

I've also let many debaters back out of debates after they read my opening argument.

It's funny because you'd almost certainly count our present debate as one of those rigged debates if you did not already know that I tried pretty hard to discourage you. 
#15
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@oromagi
You've debated 3. Rationalmadman, whiteflame and intelligence. One of them you lost and another rationalmadman just forfeited. Who else in the top 10 have you debated? You have 1 none padded debate a year.  Regarding our debate, i just wanted a good discussion on the topic, especially considering your hubris of considering it nonsense. Although i didnt expect you to be so much of a sophist before going into it. You're very well aware yourself of how slimy and dishonest your arguments are, which has just took all the enjoyment out of what could of been an enlightening discussion. Although you did attempt to rig the debate as much as possible in your favour, that is correct, yes. If the debate was fair you wouldn't of debated me. Which not only shows how fortified and padded your record is but also your ego, unfortunately. 
#16
Bones
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I participated in some noob sniping in my initial phases, particularly because it seemed to be the convention on this site,  but I came to find that  no one actually thinks people with padded records are good. People consider the likes of whiteflames or thett3 as the best on this cite, not (no offence intended) intel or other prolific snipers. The "best" on the site is determined by the quality of their debates - no one buys into a padded record. 
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#17
RationalMadman
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@Bones
Yes they do, but you guys who don't just circlejerk each other feeling good about being utter cowards the whole time.

Noobsniping isn't cowardly if you're also willing to clash with other high rankers. If anything, I am more able to confidently do so as I can endure a loss without flinching.

I don't care if you're worshipped as the most skilled or not, that doesn't mean shit to me. I am a user who helps newcomers have someone engaging to debate with that is partly laidback/lazy and partly severe and sharp, depends on the debate and what I see as necessary.

Sometimes, they even defeat me and that matters way more to the ecosystem of the website than a bunch of pricks sitting around saying 'you are unworthy to face me' like some stuckup snobs.

People don't look down on you for the 'padding' if you're also willing to engage other high rankers from time to time. They only look down on you if that's all you do. 

If you look down on me for being willing and enthusiastic to engage noobs on debates, you are just part of the problem.
#18
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@Bones
not (no offence intended) intel or other prolific snipers.
Well, I don’t snipe people, I just participate in topics I think I can win even if the other side is Whiteflame-leveled. Then again, I normally don’t accept highly scientific or political topics because I am young and relatively ignorant compared to some of us here.

#19
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@Ehyeh

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You've debated 3. Rationalmadman, whiteflame and intelligence. One of them you lost and another rationalmadman just forfeited. Who else in the top 10 have you debated?
MisterChris, Novice_II, and Trent_0405.  I've beat trent twice and RM 3 times.  I've asked Barney for debates.  Ramshutu asked me but when I was ready he was on a break.  I'm sure we'll do that one some day.  Bones asked me to debate Hunter's laptop and I accepted but then he got busy. 

(Barney beat me rather handily on DDO in 2013, tho.  MisterChris and I were still pretty new when we debated -  I think he's way better now)

 Although i didnt expect you to be so much of a sophist before going into it. You're very well aware yourself of how slimy and dishonest your arguments are, which has just took all the enjoyment out of what could of been an enlightening discussion.
  • Here you are ten days ago:
    • "Let it be known to everyone here with eyes to see and minds to read: Oromagi has made some very bold claims. First he said reincarnation is falsifiable, then he moves the goalpost to continuously saying how unlikely it is despite me cutting off an arm and a leg, giving him all the advantages he could hope for in this debate, yet he still refuses despite being so sure of its unlikelihood. If you're so sure, come and sweep the floor with me like you do with the other 99% you debate. It should be easy. Come get your free win."
  • Now you're all like:
    • "Boo Hoo!  I just wanted an enightening discussion.  You're so mean."
    • This in a debate where you actually PLAGIARIZED your best argument out the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy and I went ahead and argued against it anyway. Jeez.
Although you did attempt to rig the debate as much as possible in your favour, that is correct, yes. If the debate was fair you wouldn't of debated me. Which not only shows how fortified and padded your record is but also your ego, unfortunately. 
  • As you said ten day ago- you gave me all the advantages and still I spared you.  Then you taunted me until I accepted.  Hard to summon much sympathy now.

#20
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@Intelligence_06
not (no offence intended) intel or other prolific snipers.
Well, I don’t snipe people, I just participate in topics I think I can win even if the other side is Whiteflame-leveled. Then again, I normally don’t accept highly scientific or political topics because I am young and relatively ignorant compared to some of us here.
I think you're a good debater, I was merely drawing out the point that rating doesn't necessitate skill. Even though Whiteflames doesn't have an extraordinary leaderboard position like you,  he's pretty much better than everyone in the top 10. 


#21
Bones
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@oromagi
Bones asked me to debate Hunter's laptop and I accepted but then he got busy. 
let me off the hook man
#22
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@Bones
let me off the hook man
You just PM'd about it yesterday!  Am I not supposed to think we might be on again?
#23
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@Bones
he's pretty much better than everyone in the top 10. 

I agree.  Especially like classic, formal debating I think WF is best.   That said, I think he's a little boring to read (sorry, WF).  I'd rather read Ragnar's arguments. As I've said elsewhere, if we're going by the framework of this website, RM is the best debater  in spite of being lazy and often incomprehensible but others are starting to figure out his game.  I predict he will be number one again some day but he will get overtaken by somebody  active and more disciplined- that could very well be you.
#24
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@oromagi
My curiosity made me PM you - however, I've researched and found literally nothing except for a single source. The reason I found the laptop situation ostensibly believable is that there is seemingly a surge of articles claiming it has been proven after much speculation that it was Russian misinformation , and the mention of it in the Homeland Security Committee hearing seems to suggest its been concretely established and that it's veracity is not up for questioning. Nonetheless, mere assertions, no matter how confidently opined, will not help me in a debate, and the only sources I can find are all quite poor. 

 I predict he will be number one again some day but he will get overtaken by somebody  active and more disciplined- that could very well be you.
Thanks for the compliment, but honestly, I don't think I would ever even engage in the volume of debates required for me to get near even your range, much less win them all, but nonetheless...
#25
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@Bones
I think NY Post, Tucker Carlson, etc know it all amounts to nothing but just keeping the subject live works for any anti-Biden interests.  There's no question that the whole nepotistic  lobbying game feels wrong even when no laws have technically been broken and it certainly doesn't hurt to keep  reprinting all those sex and drugs pics.  

If real proof emerges that Giuliani bought the hard drive in Kyiv for $5mil and gave it to the FBI without telling them he got it from Russians (as Lev Parnas now asserts), Rudy could be doody.  But then, there's a lot of things that might still catch up with Rudy.

#26
Ehyeh
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@oromagi
My actual argument was not plagiarised, from the encyclopedia. Nowhere on the encyclopedia does it say consciousness is a universal. The bit you said i plagiarised was copy and pasted from my DESCRPTION in my universals debate and simply worked as a way for you and readers to understand my ACTUAL subsequent argument. You barely "argued" against anything. That wasn't even my argument, the consciousness one is. That shit falls apart in two words next round.
#27
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All you've been saying is that yes, I've only had 10 hard debates on this site, but its not as bad as it seems! You're saying what im saying but making it look better by naming out the 10 debaters in the last 6 years or so.
#28
Public-Choice
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@RationalMadman
Have you ever thought that they take more issue of it with you because you are proven to be one of the best debaters on this site though sheer volume of debates?

Maybe the don't want you doing it because you're good at debating but they aren't as confident about Novice.

I can't judge, personally, as I have only seen a couple debates on here from either of you. But I had thought that gaming the leaderboards was just normal on these sites.
#29
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@RationalMadman
I wasn't on the moderation team when the prior decision was made. It seems like a large part of your frustration is that that decision happened, and I don't know what you want me to do about that. It was a flawed decision.

However, the basis for that decision was that they believed there was collusion going on. If there is collusion going on between Novice and Mall, then we could remove those debates as well. In the absence of any evidence for that, I'm not inclined to do so.
#30
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Not sure how so much of this turned into a discussion of my debate style, but people are welcome to their opinions of it. I know I have my flaws and, especially on DDO, I had opponents who were very good at exploiting them. And I agree with Oromagi that my arguments are generally pretty boring. I don't tend to focus on presentation, more on substance, and that's always been a problem for me when it comes to live debates where many of my opponents are effective at both. Less of a problem online, but still a pronounced one.