TRIBALISM = GOOD

Author: 3RU7AL
Ethics
intp
Information War
Anarchy
GNOSTIC

Posts

Total: 117
Topic's author
#1
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
so it makes me wonder
if people "self-segregate"
how do you stop them ?

the italians want to live in an italian neighborhood
the russians want to live in a russian neighborhood
the vietnamese want to live in a vietnamese neighborhood
the haitians want to live in a haitian neighborhood
the jamaicans want to live in a jamaican neighborhood
and they tell us that black students do better in school with black teachers
doesn't this translate logically to everyone else as well ?
sense of community
is like a sixth sense
food and language and art and music
cult(ure)
#2
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Gonna disagree to you there but I am quite radical about it.

I like the idea of getting a lot of integration going on, it is best for all.
Topic's author
#3
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
I like the idea of getting a lot of integration going on, it is best for all.
if people "self-segregate"
how do you stop them ?
#4
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,242
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@3RU7AL
Hang out with em.  

mingle. 
Or
Limit the area of wich this self seg can take place. 
Or perhaps 
 Kull. /  purge. War.  

Im not sure what ( "self"  seg )  means now actually.  Or what it is that you may be asking. 
It reaks of hitler .
I'm sure the answer to this post could be found in a passage from  mien kemph

Hi pal . 
Can i get a re-wording on ( self segregation ) 
Make it like real real fuking dumb for me. 
Like is it. 
 How can we stop people from hanging around there own race. In a certain place. 

Yeah lock it in. 
Limit the place in which this (self seg)  is taking place. 
Topic's author
#5
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
Can i get a re-wording on ( self segregation ) 
the italians want to live in an italian neighborhood
the russians want to live in a russian neighborhood
the vietnamese want to live in a vietnamese neighborhood
the haitians want to live in a haitian neighborhood
the jamaicans want to live in a jamaican neighborhood
#6
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,242
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@3RU7AL
So like ,
How can we stop this from occurring ?
#7
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,242
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Something is happening here.

You go from . 
Itilans to Jamaicans and Russians and the rest then bammmmmmmmmmmmmmm
You say  Black people  and black teachers.


The milks  sour. 
And if the milks sour , i aint the kind of pussy to drink it.  


Im going to use one of my passes here. 


PASS.
#8
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,242
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
I was always under the impression that there is not one GOOD word with ( ism ) in it. 
Thafs when i found vantriliquisum. 
Topic's author
#9
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
You go from . 
Itilans to Jamaicans and Russians and the rest then bammmmmmmmmmmmmmm
You say  Black people  and black teachers.
hey, it's in "the news"

we're told that canada needs more black teachers

because black students stay in school longer and get better grades

if they have black teachers

do you believe this or do you not believe this
#10
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL
The area I live in had this problem when immigrants first came to the US. They did so because they often spoke broken English, and they wanted to eat foods from home, and they wanted stores that sold products from home, and they had local churches in their neighborhood. That's why the town I live in has something like 25 different Catholic churches. There was a Polish Catholic church and an Italian Catholic Church, etc. But their children who were born and raised in the United States didn't stay in those neighborhoods they moved out and went other places. Now most of those churches are closed and most of those neighborhoods are mixed. You certainly can't stop people from moving into an area where they feel comfortable. If you want to break that up per say then you need to make sure that people that move out of that area are comfortable where they move to. 
#11
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,432
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@3RU7AL
I suppose one could make laws that don't allow such, though that's a bit heavy handed,

Less heavy handed would be as Deb-8-a-bull says, talk with them.

Could also wait for them to die, then after or before, influence their children.

. . .

The thought 'did occur to me once, that an effective method for groups that want to grow their influence and lessen the influence of others,
'Might be to self segregate, not allow other groups into their heartlands, then attempt to have lots of kids, indoctrinate their kids with their beliefs.

Topic's author
#12
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
If you want to break that up per say then you need to make sure that people that move out of that area are comfortable where they move to. 
sure, maybe, but policy is generally a blunt instrument

is there anything intrinsically "wrong" with culture itself ?
Topic's author
#13
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Lemming
I suppose one could make laws that don't allow such, though that's a bit heavy handed,
hypothetically speaking,

how would you phrase one of those laws ?
#14
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,432
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@3RU7AL
I don't know,
I assume such laws already exist in a number of countries, that prevent a location, city, county, state, so on from denying individuals or groups based on what they are, believe, or practice.

Then again, some laws exist that 'do prevent certain groups from locations, like child predators and schools,
But that's a bit of an oddball group,
Not a group one would consider normal,
Such as an individual of X race, or X standard religion, X fandom.

I suppose I'd word the law as,
X is not allowed to prevent entry, service, or participation of individuals or groups based on what they are, believe, or practice.
Topic's author
#15
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Lemming
I don't know,
I assume such laws already exist, that prevent a location, city, county, state, so on from denying individuals or groups based on what they are, believe, or practice.
ok, you must be referring to israeli policies that systematically exclude non-Israelis based on their genetic heritage (or more specifically their lack of a specific genetic heritage)

or perhaps you're referring to "blood quantum" that systematically excludes people of certain genetic heritage from rights and privileges automatically provided for other people who happen to have a specific genetic heritage 
Topic's author
#16
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Lemming
X is not allowed to prevent entry, service, or participation of individuals or groups based on what they are, believe, or practice.
what if you have a sign on your place of business that reads,

no shirt, no shoes, no service

and there's someone, who has a religious belief that god told them to never wear shoes

and you deny them entry to your business

or call the cops and charge them with trespassing ?
#17
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,432
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Ah, I might have misunderstood you,
I thought you meant an example of law that 'prevents individuals or groups from excluding others.

Though there 'are also laws in the past and present that exclude others.

. . .

The no shirt, no shoes, no service,
Would be more of an issue, the more individuals existed whose religious belief required they not wear shoes,

'One person of different constitution, belief, or action, being disbarred
Doesn't 'tend to be enough to upset current society.

. . .

Still, I'd say the law is more a 'gray area, in refusing people, than strict.
#18
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@3RU7AL
so it makes me wonder
if people "self-segregate"
how do you stop them ?
You don't, unless and until that segregation impacts equal access to:

  • government services,
  • reasonable access to other goods and services and
  • freedom of association, freedom of movement.
An Italian Restaurant is a fine thing.  An Italians ONLY restaurant is anti-American.

the italians want to live in an italian neighborhood
This is generally true in the first generation of any immigrant population that speaks a different primary language from the majority population but this becomes increasingly less true for the next few generations until the distinction disappears.

A hundred years after the large Italian migrations, there are more Americans of Italian descent than ever- perhaps 18 million but only 5 million of those describe themselves as only of Italian descent and 1 million fewer of those identify as Italian than just 10 years ago.   New York was founded as a Dutch colony, Los Angeles was founded as a Spanish colony but those distinctions faded in just a couple hundred years.

My paternal grandparents' ancestors moved from Massachusetts Bay colony to the wilderness of Pennsylvania in the 1680s and then lived in the same little Appalachian town for ten generations.  My grandparent's met at a Klan Rally and now they have Vietnamese and Black and Native American and Spanish great-children.  

The impulse to self-segregate is an understandable defense measure for a few generations as language and culture are slowly blended but the history of the world tells us that no group voluntarily self-segregates for much longer than that.

Topic's author
#19
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
but those distinctions faded in just a couple hundred years.
ok, great, everything will solve itself
#20
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,432
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@3RU7AL
"Tensions between Saudi Arabia and Iran that date back decades have heated up this week after the Saudis executed a prominent Shiite opposition cleric Sheikh Nimr al-Nimr.
Much of the regional rivalry is about who wields the most political muscle in the Middle East, but it has its roots in a rift between the Sunni and Shia disciplines of Islam that opened 1,400 years ago."

Well, eventually maybe.

True the KKK 'really lost power in America over time.

. . .

There 'are a lot of laws that enforce tribalism, I'd figure,
Might be even Americans don't mind tribalism much so long as it's vague, or acting against groups or customs we don't like.
#21
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
so it makes me wonder
if people "self-segregate"
how do you stop them ?

the italians want to live in an italian neighborhood
the russians want to live in a russian neighborhood
the vietnamese want to live in a vietnamese neighborhood
the haitians want to live in a haitian neighborhood
the jamaicans want to live in a jamaican neighborhood
and they tell us that black students do better in school with black teachers
doesn't this translate logically to everyone else as well ?
sense of community
is like a sixth sense
food and language and art and music
cult(ure)
I would say tribalism isn't necessarily bad. Trends lean towards ethnocentrism and endogamy. So-called "blacks," however much one intends to generalize it, were better off before (forced) integration.

#22
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,850
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
Tribalism has entered American politics as well as American culture.
Tribalism only divides people. A civil war unities people.
#23
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Lemming

I suppose I'd word the law as,
X is not allowed to prevent entry, service, or participation of individuals or groups based on what they are, believe, or practice.
Why not?

#24
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@oromagi
reasonable access to other goods and services and
What's "reasonable access" to "other goods and services"?

#25
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,432
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@Athias
Because enough of the supposed society doesn't like exclusion, in some cases.

Why though,
Hm. . .

Well, the people 'excluded, certainly don't appreciate being 2nd class citizens, I'd think.

But even the people outside the group excluded, often join in their cause,
As they don't think it's right for another human to be treated such, fellow citizen, fellow soldier in war,

. . .

Though that'd address 'public services, not necessarily 'private services, I'd suppose,
Though 'public is a bit vague,
Private communities existing,

. . .

Hm, other than it being wrong, according to the morals of the people saying groups cannot be excluded, a reason doesn't occur to me.

. . 

Well, this makes me happy, as I think it likely I'm missing something,
So is a reason for me to Google history some,
Though also possible someone else posts why before I read why myself, if there is a reason other than the one I suggested.
#26
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,850
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
Tribalism has entered American politics as well as American culture.
Tribalism only divides people. A civil war unities people.

The disadvantages of tribalism in the modern industrial world are not difficult to identify. Tribalism can lead to brutal wars of conquest; unnecessary wars caused by mutual suspicion; racism and ethnocentrism; as well as disregard for different social classes.

Lesson one: The tribes were named after Jacob's sons and grandsons. They were Asher, Dan, Ephraim, Gad, Issachar, Manasseh, Naphtali, Reuben, Simeon, Zebulun, Judah and Benjamin. Of these 12, only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin survived
#27
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Lemming
Because enough of the supposed society doesn't like exclusion, in some cases.

Why though,
Hm. . .

Well, the people 'excluded, certainly don't appreciate being 2nd class citizens, I'd think.

But even the people outside the group excluded, often join in their cause,
As they don't think it's right for another human to be treated such, fellow citizen, fellow soldier in war,

. . .

Though that'd address 'public services, not necessarily 'private services, I'd suppose,
Though 'public is a bit vague,
Private communities existing,

. . .

Hm, other than it being wrong, according to the morals of the people saying groups cannot be excluded, a reason doesn't occur to me.

. . 

Well, this makes me happy, as I think it likely I'm missing something,
So is a reason for me to Google history some,
Though also possible someone else posts why before I read why myself, if there is a reason other than the one I suggested.
That's the important distinction: public and private services. Would you maintain your description of law for private services?

#28
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,432
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@Athias
Well, I don't even need use a 'supposed law, I suppose,
As I'm pretty sure America already has it.

I do remember a number of years back being bothered a bit, by the gay cake situation,
Not that I was upset that gays were being backed by the law to be able to purchase cake,
But I 'do like individual and group autonomy to decide their own way, a fair bit.

It got me thinking on the argument about how can people be expected to live at all, or as a normal citizen,
If all or even X many private businesses refused service to X individual or group.

I don't remember if I thought, ah yes case closed,
Or just stopped thinking about it, but I did find the argument compelling.

Though as I talk with you now,
The thought comes up to me, well obviously the people of that location don't want X person or group around, why ought they be forced to accommodate?
#29
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Lemming
Well, I don't even need use a 'supposed law, I suppose,
As I'm pretty sure America already has it.

I do remember a number of years back being bothered a bit, by the gay cake situation,
Not that I was upset that gays were being backed by the law to be able to purchase cake,
But I 'do like individual and group autonomy to decide their own way, a fair bit.

It got me thinking on the argument about how can people be expected to live at all, or as a normal citizen,
If all or even X many private businesses refused service to X individual or group.

I don't remember if I thought, ah yes case closed,
Or just stopped thinking about it, but I did find the argument compelling.

Though as I talk with you now,
The thought comes up to me, well obviously the people of that location don't want X person or group around, why ought they be forced to accommodate?
Exactly. And the best way to illustrate this is if we take the reasoning and examine it in different contexts. So, if we were to take the gay cake situation, and suppose instead of selling cakes, one was selling old records at a Yard Sale. To what extent is one willing to violate an individual's autonomy in service to another person's self-esteem? I think it's stupid to not sell someone a cake because of their sexuality, but as a proprietor I believe one should be able to behave one's property as one pleases, even if it's "stupid."
#30
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,432
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@Athias
Being at the back of the bus, was enough of a violation of their self esteem, that African Americans boycotted, marched, demonstrated, protested,
Also people of other races, but 'mostly blacks, I assume.

Though that's a case of the people involved having enough numbers, importance, and means to force society to accept their demands of equal treatment.

Rather than protected groups in America who don't have the means themselves.

. . .
Where was I going with this. . .
I don't remember, I was going to make a point about self esteem then follow it up, but I forget.

. . 

Still, ignoring self esteem and trivial purchases like cakes, video games,

Private businesses 'are a bit public, social,
Though that's only because they're open to the public at large I suppose. .

But there 'are more vital businesses, such as food.

Also matter of pay,
If a country were to allow private business to reject a group, and they did en masse,
It'd be hard for  that group to grow, in size or financial situation, elected office.

Though again I come to the thought, well if a community doesn't want X, must it be forced to accept X?