Religion is an evolutionary advantage

Author: Avery

Posts

Total: 193
Topic's author
#1
Avery
Avery's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 323
1
2
5
Avery's avatar
Avery
1
2
5
Functionally, regardless of whether the religion in question is true, it will solve issues that humans face. Namely:

(1) Creating an untouchable, unseeable leader who can never be caught in a scandal, contradiction or anything untoward (something that humans will never be able to rectify if they themselves are leaders, due to their imperfection).

(2) Adds mystical magic to morality so that it seems divine, rather than just an impulse. This is especially important for cause-driven people who want to feel like they are living with a real purpose. It also helps to prevent crimes of all natures.

(3) Quells fear of the unknown with answers to queries that scare humans (e.g. what happens after death? You go to Heaven or hell; you are reincarnated; you enter paradise etc.).

(4) Creates free labor as a religious zealot will gladly do things in the name of the divine, all the whilst making them feel good for doing so.


Without religion, there are important holes to fill, and I don't think Atheism or Agnosticism fill them. I think it could be said that humans currently need religion to function.
#2
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
🥱 
#3
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
Rape is also evolutionary advantageous - it allows for one to expand their gene, which is the driving function of evolution.=
#4
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
For it to be an evolutionary advantage it would need to help maximise our fitness to survive and I can’t see how religion does this.
Topic's author
#5
Avery
Avery's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 323
1
2
5
Avery's avatar
Avery
1
2
5
-->
@Bones
Rape is also evolutionary advantageous - it allows for one to expand their gene, which is the driving function of evolution.
It's not evolutionarily advantageous. That's why people are shocked, disgusted and appalled by it. That's why you've used "rape" for its shock value to counter via Ad Absurdum, but it actually contradicts your argument. 

You are confusing these: (1) what is good for the individual, and (2) what is good evolutionarily speaking. I'm talking about (2), not (1). Rape may help the ugly, hopeless loser, but that doesn't help the gene pool in the long-run (hence, isn't evolutionarily advantageous).
Topic's author
#6
Avery
Avery's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 323
1
2
5
Avery's avatar
Avery
1
2
5
-->
@Elliott
For it to be an evolutionary advantage it would need to help maximise our fitness to survive and I can’t see how religion does this.
Fair enough. I've only outlined them in the OP. They're very easy to miss. I'll even link to it to help you: Religion is an evolutionary advantage (debateart.com) 
#7
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Bones
Rape is also evolutionary advantageous - it allows for one to expand their gene, which is the driving function of evolution.=
You make a good point here. This is actually why Ii support the legalization of victimless crimes, like rape. 
#8
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Elliott
For it to be an evolutionary advantage it would need to help maximise our fitness to survive and I can’t see how religion does this.
I would argue that it has maximize fitness to survive. You'd have to look at it through the lense of group evolution. If a group has 30 selfless individuals unafraid of death and willing to die for their God, they have an advantage over tribes in warfare who do fear death, will act selfishly in battle by retreating too early etc. 
#9
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
You use the word religion not the plural  ( religions ) 


Religion is an evolutionary advantage.
Not .
Religions are evolutionary advantages.  Orrrrrr  religions are a evolutionary advantage. 

Buttttttt 
A good old ( pros and cons of religions ) chart would better explain what you are getting at. 
Personally im a sucker for pie graphs. 

If you could put to me ( religions are good )  with a " Pie graph"  you got me. 

A  current  pros and cons of religions chart would look like this. 

Pro  :   8  possibly 9

Con  :  28008765517836462897458487243274835416395642332800018725479981i8376574840301837695982641729582643183596

HOWEVER. 
If your post turns out to be correct,  as i am sure it is. 
The numbers could in fact look alot more like this. 

Pro :  12  possibly  13

Con :  2800876555178364628976464849020292874758929183465882929394757473829902834757489347058493848484843183596




Good game.
Good game.
Topic's author
#10
Avery
Avery's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 323
1
2
5
Avery's avatar
Avery
1
2
5
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
I'm pretty sure the concept of 'religion' can be plural, but whatever. Not going to be a total loser and argue grammar here.

The OP isn't about whether religion is "good" (whatever that means), it's about whether religion is an evolutionary advantage. If you'd like to address that, feel free.
Topic's author
#11
Avery
Avery's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 323
1
2
5
Avery's avatar
Avery
1
2
5
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
You make a good point here. This is actually why Ii support the legalization of victimless crimes, like rape. 
That's right. If rape was a crime with 'victims', how come the 'victims' never feel like telling anyone about it? In fact, they're often dead-silent about it!
#12
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
People join just one religion so to speak. 
This is rather odd

If being a member of a religious group was good , you'd be in at least a dozen right ? .  


The OP topic can then say.  One Religion is a evolutionary advantage.  
Four religions is a bigger evolutionary advantage.  
Forty four religions bigger advant .

Is being in a religion a ummmm " advantage  "  ?   
Or are you saying religion is an advantage ? 
 
#13
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
I'm not clear on how it's evolutionarily advantageous; to me it seems more a byproduct of evolution combined with specific blind spots left thereby. Hundreds of millions of years ago, when more than one species of hominid populated the earth, we can reasonably assume tribalism existed and was, for one group particularly (homo sapiens), quite advantageous, as we're the only ones left. Once homo neanderthalis went extinct and left sapiens as the only hominid, there weren't any obvious "out group" parameters. That meant that the subtribes within homo sapiens, and the DNA they carried that drives to reproduce, start to invent reasons to eliminate competitors within their own species. As we invent agriculture and eventually civilization, making critical resources much easier to manage / access, we start to contemplate what we don't understand, what we can't understand. Eventually we invent a 'reason' for everything: why are humans so special? Why do we dominate resources while larger, faster, stronger animals, like lions, exist? Where did we come from? Why is the sun so warm, so important? Why do rains fall, and what does it mean when they don't fall for a while? What are those white dots in the night sky? Etc. etc. etc. Religion, all of them in history, answer these questions very succinctly, but without verification, and the religions that survive and grow and thrive are the ones that answer these questions in ways that appeal to us: you're so special because some god somewhere loves you more than he loves bears...when you die, unlike animals, you're going to go live someplace EVEN BETTER than earth...you endure hardship because it's a test, not because it's meaningless bad luck...etc etc etc. These religions then add something for us to create "in groups" versus "out group" parameters over, and bang, religion seems inevitable. 

TO be advantageous from an evolutionary perspective, it seems to me religion would have to somehow propel the reproduction of the species forward in some way (like how being a faster fox would be evolutionarily advantageous to being a slower fox, for example). 
Topic's author
#14
Avery
Avery's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 323
1
2
5
Avery's avatar
Avery
1
2
5
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
Instead of being a Grammar-Nazi, you know you can read the rest of the OP to see what I meant?

You can actually do that.

That's why I wrote it. It's for you to read.
#15
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Avery
That's right. If rape was a crime with 'victims', how come the 'victims' never feel like telling anyone about it? In fact, they're often dead-silent about it!

Women's fantasies usually revolve around being "ravaged". You're actually doing them a favor

Topic's author
#16
Avery
Avery's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 323
1
2
5
Avery's avatar
Avery
1
2
5
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
Women's fantasies usually revolve around being "ravaged". You're actually doing them a favor
Oh whoops. Well then we shouldn't be doing women any favors, otherwise they can't claim they are oppressed and thus get more-than-equal wages, gender quotas in employment, pity parties etc.

Instead, we should actively AVOID raping women so they can continue to claim victim status. We can't have women being treated as equals by doing them favors.
#17
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
I would argue that it has maximize fitness to survive. You'd have to look at it through the lense of group evolution. If a group has 30 selfless individuals unafraid of death and willing to die for their God, they have an advantage over tribes in warfare who do fear death, will act selfishly in battle by retreating too early etc. 
It is unlikely that early tribal groups would die for God as there is no evidence for monotheism in these early groups, polytheism was probably the norm, the earliest monotheistic religions came into being about 4000 years ago.
 
Is to whether there would have been any religious conflict between polytheistic groups is as far as I am aware unlikely, as if you believe in many gods it is easy to accept the gods of other tribes.
 
The main reason for early tribal conflict would have been about resources not religion, obtaining resources would be beneficial to survival.
#18
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Me.      A grammar-nazi. 

That will do me.  



#19
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@Avery
Fair enough. I've only outlined them in the OP. They're very easy to miss. I'll even link to it to help you: Religion is an evolutionary advantage (debateart.com) 
Very easy to miss as none of those points appear to maximise our fitness to survive by process of natural selection. Did they help those early hominids find food, hunt animals or compete with predators, if so I can’t see it.
#20
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Instead of  Religion is a ( evolutionary advantage )  
Can you perhaps reword it ?  
Dumb it down for me. 

What can you replace ( evolutionary advantage ) with ?   
Even if it takes fifty words. 

If you don't want to its all good. 
#21
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Elliott
Is to whether there would have been any religious conflict between polytheistic groups is as far as I am aware unlikely, as if you believe in many gods it is easy to accept the gods of other tribes.
 
The main reason for early tribal conflict would have been about resources not religion, obtaining resources would be beneficial to survival.

Obviously the conflicts would more likely revolve around resources and other similar things. We're are talking about the advantages of a theistic belief system for evolutionary purposes.

It is unlikely that early tribal groups would die for God as there is no evidence for monotheism in these early groups,

The type of belief system that supports cowards get punished in the afterlife or that a God will ensure victory even when certain defeat looks imminent is not any less likely to be polytheistic than monotheistic religion. 


#22
Elliott
Elliott's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 407
2
2
6
Elliott's avatar
Elliott
2
2
6
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
The type of belief system that supports cowards get punished in the afterlife or that a God will ensure victory even when certain defeat looks imminent is not any less likely to be polytheistic than monotheistic religion. 
There earliest evidence for some sort of religious belief probably related to Sympathetic Magic, this is a belief that events can be influenced by creating a representation of that event prior to it taking place. This can be seen in early cave paintings, where hunters are portrayed completing a successful hunt, this is intended to influence the potential for future successful hunts. Such religious concepts like retribution in an afterlife appeared much later long after human  biological development as we know it today was completed and so wouldn’t have influenced evolution.
#23
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Elliott
Well everything you've posted is true no one here wants to talk about those animistic and polytheist religions. They consider them irrelevant to today even though they existed for a very long time before monotheism or as you stated even religion in general. There are certain polyistic religions were even the gods take a back seat to land spirits and dead ancestors. But again nobody here wants to talk about those things because they're irrelevant to their day-to-day life. They only care about the religion they feel have scarred and marked them in some way. The purpose is never for productive conversation. 
#24
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Elliott
This can be seen in early cave paintings, where hunters are portrayed completing a successful hunt, this is intended to influence the potential for future successful hunts. 
Cool, thanks for supporting my assertion that there is an evolutionary advantage by mentioning sympathetic magic which would obviously compel a belief that makes it more likely to persevere in the face of what looks like defeat and not to mention the known benefits of the placebo affect.


#25
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,006
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Wylted
--> @Elliott
This can be seen in early cave paintings, where hunters are portrayed completing a successful hunt, this is intended to influence the potential for future successful hunts. 
Cool, thanks for supporting my assertion that there is an evolutionary advantage by mentioning sympathetic magic which would obviously compel a belief that makes it more likely to persevere in the face of what looks like defeat and not to mention the known benefits of the placebo affect.
What necessitated the invention of nuclear weapons if using simple hunting tools seen in early cave paintings, where hunters are portrayed completing a successful hunt?

Is evolution then a process that eventually leads to civilizations destroying themselves?

#26
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@Shila
Is evolution then a process that eventually leads to civilizations destroying themselves?
99.99% of anything that's ever lived on this planet in its billions-years history is extinct. Draw your own conclusions :).
#27
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,611
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Avery
Well, religion does help you hijack an airliner and fly it into a building.  'Allahu Akbar'
Religion did help evolution in the beginning when it was an opiate you really needed when you looked at your dead kids and your rotting leg.
Now it is a hindrance to positive evolution.
#28
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Bones
Rape is also evolutionary advantageous - it allows for one to expand their gene, which is the driving function of evolution.=
Took the words out of my... keyboard.
#29
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,611
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
Remember that televangelist Kenneth Copeland is worth $760 million and Rev. Jim Bakker was convicted in 1989 and sentenced to 45 years in prison. The sentence was later reduced to eight years, and he was released in 1994.
#30
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Religion is a evolutionary advantage.

Again. 
Religion is a evolutionary advantage. 
A Evolutionary advantage. 
I
I 
I just don't like it.  

It is on par however for what we've come to expect with dealing with religious stuff.  (  IT ISN'T STRAIGHT FORWARD. ) 
I mean you cant just make a statement like. 
(  All up .... Religion has been a big plus for the human race. )   
One 

Actually it is straightforward hey?
A Evolutionary advantage.

It would be a lot clearer   if  you put a name along with some numbers before it. 
So it reads.  

(   Rebecca  17 : 33.  Religion is an evolutionary advantage )  

Now that instantly makes sense.    

I've  noticed that. 
When dealing with ummmm religious things ,  it isn't a small patch of something straightforward followed by another small patch of something straightforward.