Atheists are hypocrites

Author: Ehyeh

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Lemming
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@Ehyeh
Out of curiosity, why Atheists be hypocrites in particular?

Everything being doubtable, it'd sound that 'every belief system that says something seems likely and acts upon such, would be hypocrites by your logic?
I think.
K_Michael
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@Ehyeh
Christian religions say God is completely unconceptualizable, he cant be put into boxes not does he have characteristic or sin like humans. Just because God is "person" doesn't mean he's one like a man or human.
Exodus 20:5
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God
Number 22:22
God's anger was kindled
Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!"
Jealousy, anger, pleasure... seem like human characteristics to me.
K_Michael
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@Ehyeh
In the end you could not even prove you can tie your own shoelaces.
The point isn't whether or not there are actual shoelaces getting actually tied. The point is that you tie them anyway. Because your beliefs, like everyone else's, are informed by observation.
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@Ehyeh
philosophy has proven empiricism unreliable since Socrates. We're back to square one. In the end you could not even prove you can tie your own shoelaces.
how do you think the computer you're typing on was created ?

empirical demonstration is not a comprehensive philosophy

but it is extremely practical
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@Ehyeh
philosophy has proven empiricism unreliable since Socrates.
citation please
Shila
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@Ehyeh
Humans wont die out if we didnt have phones, which is the main point. They're not a necessity for the humans species to survive. They may be essential for modern society but that's different from what we were talking about. 
The topic is Atheists are hypocrites.

Atheists are hypocrites because they believe iPhone can save lives with the timely warnings about weather, natural disasters. traffic congestions, shootings etc. etc. but they refuse to believe God can save lives.


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@Shila
but they refuse to believe God can save lives.
which god update are you currently on ?
Lemming
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Actually I think a belief in God can save lives,
And kill lives,
Same with an iPhone.
Ehyeh
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@Lemming
Atheists who directly reject the possibility of God. They're the hypocrites, not agnostics. Even on this site we have the "agnostic" tag for those who are in the middle. The dictionary definition of atheist is super outdated.
K_Michael
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@Lemming
Murder though I'd call a bit like gravity,
Though only in the sense that a person or society would be likely to structure morality a certain way based on certain conditions.
here is a short web serial partially about an alien society whose evolutionary background actually necessitated murder of immature members of their species as a moral good. Definitely worth a read imo, or there's an audio format as well.
I agree that murder is one of the ones that is likely to arise as a taboo in most moral systems, but that doesn't put it anywhere near the same class of rule as gravity. Gravity isn't likely to arise in a given solar system, it is an essential part of how our universe operates.

Skip to 11:35 or here for the relevant part.


Ehyeh
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@K_Michael
"The point isn't whether or not there are actual shoelaces getting actually tied. The point is that you tie them anyway. "

I believe there's a contradiction in that sentence. "you may not actually tie your shoelaces but you tie them anyways" well, no you don't if kant is right and the phenomena is different from the noumenon. Once more, how do you know you even have shoes, how do you know its not a simulation? you have a million assumptions going on constantly.
Ehyeh
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@3RU7AL
Phaedo. Its in my first post. Descartes? Hume? pretty much every philosopher critiques the validity of empiricism. Its even in the republic, the allegory of the cave.
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@Ehyeh
Do you, or do you not, report the sensory experience of tying your shoes after the sensory experience of seeing them untied?
Do not obfuscate. Yes or no, when your senses tell you your shoe is untied, do you perform the action that in your mind is associated with tying your shoes?
Ehyeh
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@K_Michael
o you, or do you not, report the sensory experience of tying your shoes after the sensory experience of seeing them untied?
Do not obfuscate. Yes or no, when your senses tell you your shoe is untied, do you perform the action that in your mind is associated with tying your shoes?

YES, You have that sensation. Yet, its obvious we can have any sort of sensation and them be lies, how do you know you actually did that? To reiterate an argument I've used previously: how do you know you have pants on, if you've seen people who think they have pants on but the really don't and are out of their minds? these people can look at their legs think they have pants on and literally walk out the door naked.
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@Ehyeh
Shout "Allahu Akbar" at the moment of attack, Mohammed Atta told his men. Hijacked United Airlines Flight 175 from Boston crashes into the south tower of the World Trade Center and explodes at 9:03 a.m. on September 11, 2001 in New York City.  Atta instructs each muscle man to shout "Allahu Akbar!" (God is greatest) at the moment of attack "for this cry strikes fear in the hearts of unbelievers." "You must not let it be noticed about you that you recite the credo, 'There is no god but God,'"Atta wrote. "For though you recite it a thousand times, no one should be able to distinguish whether you were silent or mentioning God. The greatness of [the phrase] 'There is no god but God' is shown by the statement of the Prophet that 'he who recites there is no god but God and whose heart believes in it, enters Paradise.'"
Shila
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@Lemming
Actually I think a belief in God can save lives,
And kill lives,
Same with an iPhone.
So an iPhone can replace God and has replaced God since it can do the same thing as God and save lives.

Where iPhone has an advantage is no one can be refused membership unlike  God where a person is accepted based on his/her faith and conversion.
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@Shila
I disagree that an iPhone and God are the same shape, meaning,
Replace has variance depending on what function is being replaced,
I think your comment on an iPhone replacing God, is too broad a statement.

One 'can be refused a membership of an iPhone,
If the government refuses the citizens such,
If a company refuses a citizen such,
If one has not the funds to afford one,
If one refuses spyware be included in their iPhone.

I think more of God, than I do iPhones.
Though I'm an atheist.

. . .

Though depending on various situations, I may encourage people to use an iPhone, God, or both.
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@Ehyeh
YES, You have that sensation. Yet, its obvious we can have any sort of sensation and them be lies, how do you know you actually did that?
I don't know anything. I said that in my first post. But the nature of reality is that you and I both behave the same given that "sensation." We tie our shoes, or we have a sensory experience that corresponds to our idea of tying our shoes. So clearly you have the same beliefs as I do, even if you wrap them in this weird existential doubt.
Ehyeh
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@K_Michael
Its not a weird existentialist doubt. Its assuming nothing and seeing what we know. I feel like you're not even arguing against the prompt of the original intention of the forum post at this point. Which was to give my view on why i think atheists who think god is illogical are hypocrites. I would agree we learn through our senses and our sensory impressions, but there's no way to know if those sensory impression are actually real and not illusions. In the same "sense" that we feel like we tie our shoes without being fully certain we actually are. Some people have the "sense" that god exists too. Just like some may with the toothfairy.
Ramshutu
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@Ehyeh
To be sure of naturalism, physicalism, materialism, etc, you must first assume your senses to a pretty high degree to be correct.
This isn’t really true.

So let’s start of with basic senses - I can figure out whether we are all seeing the same thing by asking people, take vision or sense tests against a control to determine whether we are all seeing the same thing.

We can make observation of things that can be corroborated as consistent. We can conceive devices that we can assure as accurate through a variety of means by comparing it to other things.

That’s what we can do: now we don’t have to assume their results or what they observe is “correct” merely “all that we can make statements about”

The sun could be a fat guy called Gerald - and we are simply all observing this in a collective delusion; but until we have an observation of Gerald - we will never be able to know whether that’s true or false.

That’s really the crux of empiricism - it’s not claiming things we observe are true; but that only thing we can observe can be known.


Yet there's really not a very philosophical reason to believe this outside of pragmatism.
There actually is. 

You have an apple on your desk.

I say that the Apple is an Apple. You say the Apple is actually God.

Let’s say God himself revealed that he is the Apple in some dream or revelation.

How can we tell who is right and wrong?

The only means we have of ever telling, is by observation.

Saying that it’s an apple is at best a statement that the apple is an apple by all means we have available by which to tell.

Saying that it’s God, however, cannot be corroborated at all.


The philosophical reason to use observations as opposed to anything else - is that it’s the only real means we have to validate any statement that someone make.






If the things we see cannot be proven to be mind-independent or real, Why are people so quick to assume God is a logical absurdity?
There’s a difference here between dismissing God as unproven, and as a logical absurdity. I think both are true. Most claims about Gods do not make logical sense upon examination, but are unrelated to the way we measure.

For the case that God is unproven or can’t be measured; the important point is that whatever our reality is, or isn’t: to us it appears to obeys common agrees rules; based upon the only means we have to check.

Nothing maybe real in the sense we think it is; but in the context that we observe it, there is no plausible observation attributable to God; and until there is, we should treat the claim of God the same way as the claim of Gerald.


It appears to me almost everything in this world (currently) requires some element of faith, this element of reality is exemplified by the problem of induction. Prove me wrong.
Faith is not actually required for any of it; because no one is really dishonest or misrepresenting the truth of the premise.

I am not saying that Gerald definitely does not exist, and the sun and our reality is exactly as we observe it. That would require faith, as we can’t tell for certain.

When everything is measured in degrees of confidence - not true and false, faith is no longer required.


The fundamental issue here you may need to let go of, is the concept of truth. There is nothing we can know absolutely.


Shila
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@Lemming
I disagree that an iPhone and God are the same shape, meaning,
Replace has variance depending on what function is being replaced,
I think your comment on an iPhone replacing God, is too broad a statement.

One 'can be refused a membership of an iPhone,
If the government refuses the citizens such,
If a company refuses a citizen such,
If one has not the funds to afford one,
If one refuses spyware be included in their iPhone.

I think more of God, than I do iPhones.
Though I'm an atheist.

. . .

Though depending on various situations, I may encourage people to use an iPhone, God, or both.
An iPhone can warn you about God as in the case of god sent disasters and plagues.

But God cannot help you with your iPhone.

If you don’t qualify for an iPhone membership, God might be your only hope to communicate wirelessly.
Ehyeh
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@Ramshutu
I'm unsure if you know if you're necessarily seeing the same thing. How do you know other people are even self conscious to begin with? You may be able to collectively agree on seeing the same thing, but as you said that doesn't make it anymore real.
Lemming
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@Shila
I believe that the concept of God, believing in God 'can help with an iPhone,
Take individuals who suffer from cyberbullying,

Many individuals by God and religion,
Are able to discover game theories, that aid in durability of character and understanding,
As well as their faith placed, will endure in understanding or strength standing.

Though not believing in God myself,
I prefer 'my apparent truth of atheism,
And find what tools from it and elsewhere, that aid me.
3RU7AL
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@Ehyeh
Phaedo. Its in my first post. Descartes? Hume? pretty much every philosopher critiques the validity of empiricism. Its even in the republic, the allegory of the cave.
none of these claim "empiricism is unreliable"
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@Ehyeh
GOD principle sound.

Infinitely existent floaty about blokes not so.
Ramshutu
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@Ehyeh
I'm unsure if you know if you're necessarily seeing the same thing. How do you know other people are even self conscious to begin with? You may be able to collectively agree on seeing the same thing, but as you said that doesn't make it anymore real.
If there is no way anyone can possibly tell - why does it even matter?

What is “true” doesn’t matter at all if it’s not possible to tell what is true.

The only real basis we have of talking about things is through relationships in what we observe.

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@Ehyeh
Once more, how do you know you even have shoes, how do you know its not a simulation?
it doesn't matter if the phenomenal world is "a simulation" or not

science can still identify reproducible effects

otherwise, we wouldn't be able to engineer machines
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@Ramshutu
The only real basis we have of talking about things is through relationships in what we observe.
intersubjectivity
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@Ehyeh
but as you said that doesn't make it anymore real.
depending on your personally preferred definition of "real" of course
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@Ramshutu
There is nothing we can know absolutely.
you can't doubt your own ability to think