Pro choicers need to come up with better arguments

Author: TheUnderdog

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#1
TheUnderdog
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Argument 1: A zygote isn’t a human being.

Me response: That opinion goes against the opinions of 95% of biologists.

Argument 2: A zygote is a human being, but bodily autonomy outweighs the right to life.

My response: If that’s what you believe, then you would have to be fine with a conjoined twin killing their twin in the name of bodily autonomy.  They are connected, so if bodily autonomy outweighs the right to life, then you would have to support one conjoined twin’s right to kill their twin.  I have met people that defended that view and I think most normal people don’t.  But if it’s not acceptable to kill your conjoined twin in the name of bodily autonomy, what makes abortion any different?

Argument 3: A kid set up for adoption gets messed up so badly it’s worse than death.

Response: The vast majority of foster kids get adopted within 5 years and the foster system makes sure the parents are competent and not child rapists or abusers.
#2
FLRW
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@TheUnderdog

According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average cost of raising a child to age 18 was $233,610 as of 2015. 1 With an annual adjustment for inflation of 2.2% each year factored in, the lifetime cost of raising a child born in 2022 could be estimated at $272,049.
#3
3RU7AL
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@TheUnderdog
the function of government is restricted to three categories

(1) dispute resolution between citizens

(2) making sure public spaces are safe for all citizens

(3) negotiating with foreign powers
#4
Polytheist-Witch
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That's what I say all the time when I'm at the pool or at the mall or just out and I see people with their zygotes. I'm like don't people realize those are human beings. And the people with me go what are you talking about I don't see any zygotes. And I'm like but you have to assume that that woman who's a reproductive age could have a zygote right now. Especially if she has actual born human children walking around with her. And we should just respect that those zygotes are humans they should have birth certificates, women should be getting welfare for them, you should be able to get life insurance on them. I mean zygotes have rights too don't they? Wait...
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#5
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@FLRW
Child costs don’t justify legalized murder.  If you can’t afford your kid, set that kid up for adoption.  There they will get adopted by someone more willing and able to raise the kid.
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#6
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@3RU7AL
The government’s sole pourpose is regulation of its people.  We are regulated so we can’t legally murder, rape, etc.  Abortion is merely another regulation.  But all regulations need justification.  In the case of abortion, that justification is it kills an innocent human being.  At least that’s what 95% of biologists believe.
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#7
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@Polytheist-Witch
And we should just respect that those zygotes are humans they should have birth certificates, women should be getting welfare for them, you should be able to get life insurance on them. I mean zygotes have rights too don't they? Wait...
It’s impossible to get a conception certificate because it’s unknown.   Females get welfare for their zygotes if needed, but people shouldn’t rely on welfare period.  If you are on welfare, you or your husband needs a vasectomy to prevent you from being an additional burden to taxpayers.

A zygote has a high enough chance of dying while in the womb for a life insurance provider to not want to insure a high risk client.  Life insurance is for people that have a low chance of dying.  Otherwise insurance companies would go bankrupt.
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TWS1405
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@TheUnderdog
Argument 1: A zygote isn’t a human being.
Me response: That opinion goes against the opinions of 95% of biologists.

First, your problem is linguistics. Words have meaning. Their meaning is determined by their usage within the context they are given. Even the term [a] has a specific person when used within the context you have used it. The manner in which you have used it is a misnomer. It is patently incorrect.

This is [a] human being, this is NOT [a] human being. 

You are also not reading into what "95%" of so-called biologists are saying correctly, obviously. 

Argument 2: A zygote is a human being, but bodily autonomy outweighs the right to life.
My response: If that’s what you believe, then you would have to be fine with a conjoined twin killing their twin in the name of bodily autonomy.  They are connected, so if bodily autonomy outweighs the right to life, then you would have to support one conjoined twin’s right to kill their twin.  I have met people that defended that view and I think most normal people don’t.  But if it’s not acceptable to kill your conjoined twin in the name of bodily autonomy, what makes abortion any different?
Well, a zygote is NOT [a] human being, so the only bodily autonomy to be had is by the pregnant female. 

The rest of your rant is nonsensical. Conjoined twins born, each are recognized by law as [a] human being bestowed all the rights, privileges and equal protections of the law. A pregnancy has none of these legal protections. 


Argument 3: A kid set up for adoption gets messed up so badly it’s worse than death.
Response: The vast majority of foster kids get adopted within 5 years and the foster system makes sure the parents are competent and not child rapists or abusers.
This is so irrelevant it's just stupid. 

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@TheUnderdog
Child costs don’t justify legalized murder. 

Abortion does NOT equal murder. 

Never has, never will.
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@TheUnderdog
The government’s sole pourpose is regulation of its people.  We are regulated so we can’t legally murder, rape, etc.  Abortion is merely another regulation.  But all regulations need justification.  In the case of abortion, that justification is it kills an innocent human being.  At least that’s what 95% of biologists believe.

This uneducated comment speaks volumes of your flagrant ignorance of this topic/subject.  
#11
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Anyone willing to debate me on this subject of abortion.......anyone????????????????????????
#12
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@TheUnderdog
The government’s sole pourpose is regulation of its people.  We are regulated so we can’t legally murder, rape, etc.  Abortion is merely another regulation.  But all regulations need justification.  In the case of abortion, that justification is it kills an innocent human being.  At least that’s what 95% of biologists believe.
everyone is a witness to the crime of assault

when will smith struck chris rock

but the simple fact that "a crime" occurred

does not mean that will smith MUST "go to jail"

only the party HARMED (chris rock) has LEGAL STANDING to press charges

and if the party HARMED cannot press charges, then their NEXT OF KIN can choose to press charges
#13
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@TWS1405
Abortion does NOT equal murder. 
strangely, "infanticide" also does not equal "murder"

they are distinct legal charges
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@3RU7AL
Infanticide is still murder. It’s merely a different term that clearly places an age bracket on the victim. 
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#15
TheUnderdog
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@TWS1405
You are also not reading into what "95%" of so-called biologists are saying correctly, obviously.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703 is the link that confirms 95% of biologists believe a zygote is a human being.  If you have a different interpretation of what they said, let me know.
#16
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@TheUnderdog
Argument 1: A zygote isn’t a human being.
No one is claiming a zygote isn't a human being, the argument is that it's not a person, which has nothing to do with biology. Personhood is subjective and determining who and/or what qualifies is entirely a question about values, but most people agree on the basics; sentience, self awareness, memory, etc. Non of which apply to an early stage fetus.

Argument 2: A zygote is a human being, but bodily autonomy outweighs the right to life.
The argument isn't that one right outweighs the other as if there was no surrounding context, the question is whether the fetus has the right to use the mother's body for it's own development against the mother's will.

Argument 3: A kid set up for adoption gets messed up so badly it’s worse than death.
Never heard this argument before.

If you are going to criticize the pro choice position you could at least take the time to understand what it is.

#17
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@TheUnderdog
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703 is the link that confirms 95% of biologists believe a zygote is a human being.  If you have a different interpretation of what they said, let me know.
also, not a citizen
#18
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@Double_R
The argument isn't that one right outweighs the other as if there was no surrounding context, the question is whether the fetus has the right to use the mother's body for it's own development against the mother's will.
well, there's that

AND A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT TO PRIVACY

In a 7-2 decision authored by Justice Douglas, the Court ruled that the Constitution did in fact protect the right of marital privacy against state restrictions [**]
#19
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@TheUnderdog
Well, they’re all wrong. That’s not science. That’s emotively driven subjective  horseshit. 
#20
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@TWS1405
The law was adopted in Canada in 1948 because juries were refusing to convict mothers of murdering their own children.

Infanticide was introduced as an alternative charge with softer sentencing.

"The penalties usually aim towards supporting and assisting the mother as opposed to punishing her," Gordon said.

The maximum sentence for infanticide is five years, but no conviction in Canada has resulted in a jail term longer than one year.

There is no minimum sentence. [**]
#21
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@3RU7AL
I live in the US. Do not care about Canada's laws, or any other country for that matter. 
#22
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@TWS1405
I live in the US. Do not care about Canada's laws, or any other country for that matter. 
what sources do you consider valid ?
#23
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@3RU7AL
Context matters. 

I live in the US, so I argue from the contextual standpoint of US laws, culture, etc. When it comes to laws, specifically, I only care about the laws that apply to the US. What applies elsewhere has no bearing or relevance to the US. So only US legal sources are valid to me. Not Canada's, Israel's, Sudan's, or anywhere else. 
#24
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@TheUnderdog
Argument 1: A zygote isn’t a human being.

Me response: That opinion goes against the opinions of 95% of biologists.
I think the argument would be about personhood which biologists have no legitimate authority to weigh in on. Plus, person or not, a zygote has no right to use the body of another against their will.

Argument 2: A zygote is a human being, but bodily autonomy outweighs the right to life.

My response: If that’s what you believe, then you would have to be fine with a conjoined twin killing their twin in the name of bodily autonomy.
False analogy. Conjoined twins have equal claim the body in which their minds reside. A zygote doesn't have a mind nor does it have any claim to the body in which it resides.

Argument 3: A kid set up for adoption gets messed up so badly it’s worse than death.

Response: The vast majority of foster kids get adopted within 5 years and the foster system makes sure the parents are competent and not child rapists or abusers.
That's not an argument I've ever seen. If all unwanted pregancies were sent to adoption rather than aborted, adoptions agencies would be overwhelmed (and not just by a little bit). The efficiency claim of '5 years for most kids' would be extremely unlikely. 
#25
Ehyeh
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@TheUnderdog
"If that’s what you believe, then you would have to be fine with a conjoined twin killing their twin in the name of bodily autonomy.  They are connected, so if bodily autonomy outweighs the right to life, then you would have to support one conjoined twin’s right to kill their twin."

This is only allowed in cases where one twin is reliant on the other for survival. In most conjoined twin cases, this isn't the reality. Although some pro lifers do argue against the humanhood of a fetus  (not necessarily a weak argument all the time) most pro choicers actually argue for personhood, not humanhood.
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Children after the age of 10 are rarely if ever adopted. And those that are adopted after 5 years in the system are more than likely taken in at birth and adopted by the birth family by that time because that's how long it takes to establish that no parents going to come back. The adoption and foster care system is a mess. And it's extremely expensive for people to participate in. 
#27
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@TheUnderdog
A human zygote resultant of the fusing of two human gametes (egg and sperm) is what it is.

Definition proceeds through developmental stages, to a point whereby the dependant becomes detached from the host and is labelled variously as a baby, child, adult etc.

All human and all being.

Until such times when they might expire.

#28
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@TWS1405
Context matters. 

I live in the US, so I argue from the contextual standpoint of US laws, culture, etc. When it comes to laws, specifically, I only care about the laws that apply to the US. What applies elsewhere has no bearing or relevance to the US. So only US legal sources are valid to me. Not Canada's, Israel's, Sudan's, or anywhere else. 
does this mean you automatically disqualify any opinions on the subject of abortion that are not purely and wholly generated from a citizen of the united states ?
#29
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@Polytheist-Witch
The adoption and foster care system is a mess.
bingo
#30
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@SkepticalOne
Plus, person or not, a zygote has no right to use the body of another against their will.
exactly