What is the Universe Expanding Into?

Author: Sidewalker

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Ehyeh
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@RationalMadman
And that is one of the many reasons I began to question NASA and space theory altogether. So many contradictions and nonsense.

I believe we are in a flat earth simulation and that Antarctica is the massive outer ring, not an island.

I am fine to be mocked for it, I hardly care. One thing I will make clear is there is some real small outer space, outside of the sky that allows real satellite imagery and satellite functionality to take place. However, space debris and the rest of it is false.
So you believe everyone in NASA, the government, even ancient Greek philosophers who deciphered that the earth was spherical, these thousands upon thousands of people are simply lying to you? I mean, Occam's razor would suggest it's quite unlikely. Not just that, I'm just curious about what exactly they gain from lying to you in this manner. All the science that appears to check out and is all metaphysically possible, is likely false?
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@Shila
Yeah, space isn't expanding into anything beyond itself per se, its simply that the distance already contained within itself is getting bigger within itself.

These details are a frequent source of confusion among amateurs and even professional physicists. Interpretations of the metric expansion of space are an ongoing subject of debate
Ehyeh
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@Shila
Is it? they seem pretty confident that space is not moving into anything or expanding into nothing. The only explanation is space is getting bigger within itself, otherwise we necessarily contradict.
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@Ehyeh
The Greeks guessing it didnt lie, only astronauts and those highest up in NASA are lying and a few CGI experts etc.

Oh Roscosmos is lying as well.

There are very likely supernatural deities involved here, the lie is able to be kept with their assistance.
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@RationalMadman
If the Greeks guessed the shape and size of the Earth (despite using maths), would you not say your belief in NASA lying is an even bigger guess? I would probably wager you haven't done the mathematics proving the earth is flat and that we live within an ice wall through any real observable nor mathematically sound manner.
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@Ehyeh
Thanks for your wager.

This sophistry is how they continue to silence us.

The model of th Earth changed to be an oblate spheroid AKA a pear-like ovular (oval shaped) pseudosphere ince NASA realised that the South being far bigger than the North was becoming too obvious.

Many flight paths stop at points that do nit make logical sense, in order to refuel. However, in the flat earth model every single stopping point makes sense as the journeys are long curves otherwise (or Vs).

I will not continue this discussion in public nor really on PMs here. I have my reasons. I am willing to give you clues and source that will open your mind as well as answer theoretical questions on PM, that is it.
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@RationalMadman
If your flat Earth theory was correct, It should take significantly longer to fly to New Zealand from Chile than it would be to fly from Chile to the UK. Yet if we google flight times from these nations, it takes 14 hours to go from Chile to the UK and 12 hours to go from Chile to New Zealand. This can only be accounted for if the earth is round. This should be impossible if the earth was flat, right? 

To put that into perspective, it takes 23 hours to go from the UK to new Zealand. Are we having 1 million fake fuel stops? whats going on here?
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Is it? they seem pretty confident that space is not moving into anything or expanding into nothing. The only explanation is space is getting bigger within itself, otherwise we necessarily contradict.

Did Hubble discover the expanding universe?
In one of the most famous classic papers in the annals of science, Edwin Hubble's 1929 PNAS article on the observed relation between distance and recession velocity of galaxies—the Hubble Law—unveiled the expanding universe and forever changed our understanding of the cosmos

So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.

Sidewalker
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@Ehyeh
It could be said to be expanding into itself. 
What does "expanding into itself" mean?


Shila
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@Ehyeh
It could be said to be expanding into itself.
What does "expanding into itself" mean?

Is it true that the universe is expanding?

Based on large quantities of experimental observation and theoretical work, the scientific consensus is that space itself is expanding, and that it expanded very rapidly within the first fraction of a second after the Big Bang, approximately 13.8 billion years ago. This kind of expansion is known as "metric expansion".

Ehyeh
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@Sidewalker
well, i think its best to remember that nothing outside of the universe exists. The universe is everything so nothing exists outside of itself. The expansion of the universe can simply be viewed as the stretching of space. since space is everything, it doesn't stretch into anything but itself, this highlights two propositions (1) the universe is infinite or (2) laps back on itself. In case 1, it could be described as Somewhat like if we bounce on a trampoline it spreads out and closes back in depending on the force put  upon the trampoline, but the amount of material on the trampoline never increases or decreases. All that increases and decreases is how stretched out whatever is already there is. In this same sense the universe is never stretching or going into anything new, but stretching what is already there, like the trampoline. It may be that space simply is literally bending into itself. 

If the universe is indeed infinite, then the simple answer is that the universe doesn't have anything to expand into. A good analogy can be made with math. Imagine you have a list of numbers, 1,2,3,etc all the way up to infinity. Then you multiply every number in this list by 2, so that you now have 2,4,6 etc all the way up to infinity. The distance between the numbers in your list has "stretched" (it is now 2 instead of 1), but can you really say that the total extent of all your numbers has expanded? probably not, because in the end it all leads to infinity again anyways.  So there is still stretching but you still end up with the same total.
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@Ehyeh
The universe is everything so nothing exists outside of itself.
NOUMENON
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well, i think its best to remember that nothing outside of the universe exists. The universe is everything so nothing exists outside of itself. The expansion of the universe can simply be viewed as the stretching of space. since space is everything, it doesn't stretch into anything but itself, this highlights two propositions (1) the universe is infinite or (2) laps back on itself. In case 1, it could be described as Somewhat like if we bounce on a trampoline it spreads out and closes back in depending on the force put  upon the trampoline, but the amount of material on the trampoline never increases or decreases. All that increases and decreases is how stretched out whatever is already there is. In this same sense the universe is never stretching or going into anything new, but stretching what is already there, like the trampoline. It may be that space simply is literally bending into itself.

If the universe is indeed infinite, then the simple answer is that the universe doesn't have anything to expand into. A good analogy can be made with math. Imagine you have a list of numbers, 1,2,3,etc all the way up to infinity. Then you multiply every number in this list by 2, so that you now have 2,4,6 etc all the way up to infinity. The distance between the numbers in your list has "stretched" (it is now 2 instead of 1), but can you really say that the total extent of all your numbers has expanded? probably not, because in the end it all leads to infinity again anyways.  So there is still stretching but you still end up with the same total.
Was the Hubble Telescope designed to capture infinity?

Did Hubble discover the expanding universe?
In one of the most famous classic papers in the annals of science, Edwin Hubble's 1929 PNAS article on the observed relation between distance and recession velocity of galaxies—the Hubble Law—unveiled the expanding universe and forever changed our understanding of the cosmos

So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.

Sidewalker
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@Ehyeh
well, i think its best to remember that nothing outside of the universe exists. The universe is everything so nothing exists outside of itself. The expansion of the universe can simply be viewed as the stretching of space. since space is everything, it doesn't stretch into anything but itself, this highlights two propositions (1) the universe is infinite

The idea that space is expanding is based on Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity, and backed by Hubble’s observation of Redshift.  The General Theory of Relativity says space has a shape, if it has a shape then it isn’t infinite.   The Standard Model of Cosmology presupposes a Big Bang universe expanding from a point in time and space, because you can’t traverse and infinite either spatially or temporally, both the Standard Model of Cosmology and the General Theory of Relativity explicitly deny the proposition that the universe is infinite. If it was infinite, it couldn’t be expanding, it’s also logically and cognitively inconceivable that an actual infinity could exist.  If an actual infinity did exist we could not confirm it through observation because there would be no way to measure it.  If I did exist, there is no way for us to know it. 
 
Of course, a cyclical model could be considered infinite, but none of our scientific models are cyclical.

or (2) laps back on itself. In case 1, it could be described as Somewhat like if we bounce on a trampoline it spreads out and closes back in depending on the force put  upon the trampoline, but the amount of material on the trampoline never increases or decreases. All that increases and decreases is how stretched out whatever is already there is. In this same sense the universe is never stretching or going into anything new, but stretching what is already there, like the trampoline. It may be that space simply is literally bending into itself. 

The problem I see with option 2 is that if in fact space itself is expanding then by definition, the distance between all the objects in space are increasing, but if it laps back on itself, wouldn’t that entail the distance between at least some objects decreasing, which would mean space in that region would be contracting. 

If the universe is indeed infinite, then the simple answer is that the universe doesn't have anything to expand into. A good analogy can be made with math. Imagine you have a list of numbers, 1,2,3,etc all the way up to infinity. Then you multiply every number in this list by 2, so that you now have 2,4,6 etc all the way up to infinity. The distance between the numbers in your list has "stretched" (it is now 2 instead of 1), but can you really say that the total extent of all your numbers has expanded? probably not, because in the end it all leads to infinity again anyways.  So there is still stretching but you still end up with the same total.
That’s the problem with the concept of infinity, I don’t think it can be said to be a valid mathematical concept, at least in the sense that when you apply mathematics to it, you get logically incoherent results. One of many examples is algebraic, infinity + infinity = infinity, subtract infinity from both sides of the equation and you get infinity = zero, which is nonsensical.  It’s a useful concept for referring to a cyclical function, but it really can’t be considered a number or even a valid mathematical object.

Modern science produces a lot of mathematical infinities but I tend to think they represent places where the mathematical formulas break down. When scientific equations introduce infinities and zero divisors it does not speak to what is possible in the real world as much as it speaks to the limitations of our mathematical equations to adequately represent reality. 

I suppose the only way that infinities could be actual would be “dimensionally” speaking.  If the reality that we experience, that we are capable of experiencing, is a lower level, four-dimensional aspect of a far greater reality that we are incapable of even fathoming, certainly more than we can adequately express with the limitations inherent in the tool of mathematics, then I suppose that would entail the possibility of actual infinities, but that would transcend our science and our mathematics. (that plus many of those words would be a Pavlovian trigger for all of our spiritual detractors to lose it and throw a tantrum lol).

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Your mom.
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@Sidewalker
That’s the problem with the concept of infinity, I don’t think it can be said to be a valid mathematical concept, at least in the sense that when you apply mathematics to it, you get logically incoherent results. One of many examples is algebraic, infinity + infinity = infinity, subtract infinity from both sides of the equation and you get infinity = zero, which is nonsensical.  It’s a useful concept for referring to a cyclical function, but it really can’t be considered a number or ve ea valid mathematical object.
100% THIS
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That’s the problem with the concept of infinity, I don’t think it can be said to be a valid mathematical concept, at least in the sense that when you apply mathematics to it, you get logically incoherent results. One of many examples is algebraic, infinity + infinity = infinity, subtract infinity from both sides of the equation and you get infinity = zero, which is nonsensical.  It’s a useful concept for referring to a cyclical function, but it really can’t be considered a number or ve ea valid mathematical object.
100% THIS
Was the Hubble Telescope designed to capture infinity?

Did Hubble discover the expanding universe?
In one of the most famous classic papers in the annals of science, Edwin Hubble's 1929 PNAS article on the observed relation between distance and recession velocity of galaxies—the Hubble Law—unveiled the expanding universe and forever changed our understanding of the cosmos

So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.

Ehyeh
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@Sidewalker
The idea that space is expanding is based on Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity, and backed by Hubble’s observation of Redshift.  The General Theory of Relativity says space has a shape, if it has a shape then it isn’t infinite.   The Standard Model of Cosmology presupposes a Big Bang universe expanding from a point in time and space, because you can’t traverse and infinite either spatially or temporally, both the Standard Model of Cosmology and the General Theory of Relativity explicitly deny the proposition that the universe is infinite. If it was infinite, it couldn’t be expanding, it’s also logically and cognitively inconceivable that an actual infinity could exist.  If an actual infinity did exist we could not confirm it through observation because there would be no way to measure it.  If I did exist, there is no way for us to know it.
For something to have shape it must have dimensions. As such, even a flat surface has shape - by virtue of it having at least one dimension. There is no contradiction nor shared consensus on whether the universe is infinite or not. We don't know if there is an issue with infinity. I would wager there isn't as it isn't contradictory to imagine something being infinite. It is perfectly logical to imagine a flat plain going on forever. 0 x 0 also always equals 0. Would you claim there is an issue with that and that we cannot find 0 of something in the real world?
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@Ehyeh
For something to have shape it must have dimensions. As such, even a flat surface has shape - by virtue of it having at least one dimension. There is no contradiction nor shared consensus on whether the universe is infinite or not. We don't know if there is an issue with infinity. I would wager there isn't as it isn't contradictory to imagine something being infinite. It is perfectly logical to imagine a flat plain going on forever. 
Was the Hubble Telescope designed to capture infinity?

Did Hubble discover the expanding universe?
In one of the most famous classic papers in the annals of science, Edwin Hubble's 1929 PNAS article on the observed relation between distance and recession velocity of galaxies—the Hubble Law—unveiled the expanding universe and forever changed our understanding of the cosmos

So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.

Sidewalker
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@Ehyeh
The idea that space is expanding is based on Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity, and backed by Hubble’s observation of Redshift.  The General Theory of Relativity says space has a shape, if it has a shape then it isn’t infinite.   The Standard Model of Cosmology presupposes a Big Bang universe expanding from a point in time and space, because you can’t traverse and infinite either spatially or temporally, both the Standard Model of Cosmology and the General Theory of Relativity explicitly deny the proposition that the universe is infinite. If it was infinite, it couldn’t be expanding, it’s also logically and cognitively inconceivable that an actual infinity could exist.  If an actual infinity did exist we could not confirm it through observation because there would be no way to measure it.  If I did exist, there is no way for us to know it.
For something to have shape it must have dimensions. As such, even a flat surface has shape - by virtue of it having at least one dimension.
Maybe so, but the universe is spatially three dimensional, and a shape implies a surface, which implies a demarcation between inside and an outside, if there isn’t a surface and an outside, then how can it really be a shape?

There is no contradiction nor shared consensus on whether the universe is infinite or not.
It was Aristotle that said actual infinities couldn’t exist, so the idea has been around for quite some time.  Our best science regarding the subject matter, General Relativity and the resultant Standard Model of Cosmology, are a matter of scientific consensus, and both are quite explicit that an infinite universe contradicts theory.

We don't know if there is an issue with infinity. I would wager there isn't as it isn't contradictory to imagine something being infinite. It is perfectly logical to imagine a flat plain going on forever. 0 x 0 also always equals 0. Would you claim there is an issue with that and that we cannot find 0 of something in the real world?
I think I worded what I was trying to say in a clumsy manner, what I meant by “logically and cognitively inconceivable that an actual infinity could exist” was related to what followed, even if it existed there is no way we could know it.  Of course we could imagine it, but we could never logically or cognitively know that it actually existed…still feels clumsy…the point is that we could never have knowledge of an actual infinity existing.
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@Sidewalker
It was Aristotle that said actual infinities couldn’t exist, so the idea has been around for quite some time.  Our best science regarding the subject matter, General Relativity and the resultant Standard Model of Cosmology, are a matter of scientific consensus, and both are quite explicit that an infinite universe contradicts theory.
great point
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@Sidewalker
It was Aristotle that said actual infinities couldn’t exist, so the idea has been around for quite some time.  Our best science regarding the subject matter, General Relativity and the resultant Standard Model of Cosmology, are a matter of scientific consensus, and both are quite explicit that an infinite universe contradicts theory.

great point
The expanding universe was discovered by Hubble.

Did Hubble discover the expanding universe?
In one of the most famous classic papers in the annals of science, Edwin Hubble's 1929 PNAS article on the observed relation between distance and recession velocity of galaxies—the Hubble Law—unveiled the expanding universe and forever changed our understanding of the cosmos

So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.


Ehyeh
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@Sidewalker
Space as we know it to be possesses 4 Dimensions. One of them is time, which we cannot see unless we were in 4D. Which may explain why we cannot understand how it looks for something to be expanding while only expanding into itself while possessing shape. I think Aristotle is wrong for thinking infinites cannot exist, if he believed that.  Saying we cannot know is one thing - saying they cannot is another.
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Space as we know it to be possesses 4 Dimensions. One of them is time, which we cannot see unless we were in 4D. Which may explain why we cannot understand how it looks for something to be expanding while only expanding into itself while possessing shape. I think Aristotle is wrong for thinking infinites cannot exist, if he believed that.  Saying we cannot know is one thing - saying they cannot is another.
The expanding universe was discovered by Hubble.

Did Hubble discover the expanding universe?
In one of the most famous classic papers in the annals of science, Edwin Hubble's 1929 PNAS article on the observed relation between distance and recession velocity of galaxies—the Hubble Law—unveiled the expanding universe and forever changed our understanding of the cosmos

So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.

Sidewalker
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@Shila
The expanding universe was discovered by Hubble.

Did Hubble discover the expanding universe?
In one of the most famous classic papers in the annals of science, Edwin Hubble's 1929 PNAS article on the observed relation between distance and recession velocity of galaxies—the Hubble Law—unveiled the expanding universe and forever changed our understanding of the cosmos

So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.
Evidence that the Universe was expanding was observed by Edwin Hubble, the Hubble Telescope was launched 60 years later.
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The expanding universe was discovered by Hubble.

Did Hubble discover the expanding universe?
In one of the most famous classic papers in the annals of science, Edwin Hubble's 1929 PNAS article on the observed relation between distance and recession velocity of galaxies—the Hubble Law—unveiled the expanding universe and forever changed our understanding of the cosmos

So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.
Evidence that the Universe was expanding was observed by Edwin Hubble, the Hubble Telescope was launched 60 years later.
So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.
Sidewalker
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@Shila
The expanding universe was discovered by Hubble.

Did Hubble discover the expanding universe?
In one of the most famous classic papers in the annals of science, Edwin Hubble's 1929 PNAS article on the observed relation between distance and recession velocity of galaxies—the Hubble Law—unveiled the expanding universe and forever changed our understanding of the cosmos

So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.
Evidence that the Universe was expanding was observed by Edwin Hubble, the Hubble Telescope was launched 60 years later.
So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.
No, Edwin Hubble  wrote the PNAS article in 1929 after he had made the observations, he died in 1953, it was in 1990, 37 years after he died, and almost 60 years after he published the discovery,  that they launched the most powerful telescope in the world, and to honor Hubble's tremendous contributions they named the telescope after him.  What he visibly observed was redshift, and from that data he inferred the expansion of the Universe that Einstein's General Theory had predicted.  The Hubble Telescope did not make the observations, Edwin Hubble did.

It was a Belgian Catholic Priest and Theoretical Physicist named Georges Lemaître  that recognized that the equations of Einstein's theory predicted an expanding Universe and brought it to Einsteins attention.   Einstein didn't believe that was possible, so he adjusted his theory to remove the expansion from his equations by adding the "cosmological constant".  Twelve years later, when Hubble provided observational evidence that it was indeed expanding, Einstein removed the cosmological constant and said it had been the biggest blunder of his career.  


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The expanding universe was discovered by Hubble.

Did Hubble discover the expanding universe?
In one of the most famous classic papers in the annals of science, Edwin Hubble's 1929 PNAS article on the observed relation between distance and recession velocity of galaxies—the Hubble Law—unveiled the expanding universe and forever changed our understanding of the cosmos

So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.
Evidence that the Universe was expanding was observed by Edwin Hubble, the Hubble Telescope was launched 60 years later.
So the expansion was visibly observed by the Hubble Telescope.
No, Edwin Hubble  wrote the PNAS article in 1929 after he had made the observations, he died in 1953, it was in 1990, 37 years after he died, and almost 60 years after he published the discovery,  that they launched the most powerful telescope in the world, and to honor Hubble's tremendous contributions they named the telescope after him.  What he visibly observed was redshift, and from that data he inferred the expansion of the Universe that Einstein's General Theory had predicted.  The Hubble Telescope did not make the observations, Edwin Hubble did.

It was a Belgian Catholic Priest and Theoretical Physicist named Georges Lemaître  that recognized that the equations of Einstein's theory predicted an expanding Universe and brought it to Einsteins attention.   Einstein didn't believe that was possible, so he adjusted his theory to remove the expansion from his equations by adding the "cosmological constant".  Twelve years later, when Hubble provided observational evidence that it was indeed expanding, Einstein removed the cosmological constant and said it had been the biggest blunder of his career.
It took years before scientist mastered what the Hubble telescope was revealing and they adjusted their calculation using refined distancing measurements to arrive at a less than 2% uncertainty.

In 1929, Edwin Hubble provided the first observational evidence for the universe having a finite age. Using the largest telescope of the time, he discovered that the more distant a galaxy is from us, the faster it appears to be receding into space. This means that the universe is expanding uniformly in all directions. Hubble noted that light from faraway galaxies appeared to be stretched to longer wavelengths, or reddened, a phenomenon called redshift.
By precisely determining the expansion rate, called the Hubble constant, the cosmic clock can be rewound and the age of the universe calculated. However, Edwin Hubble's estimates of the expansion implied that the universe was younger than the age of the Earth and the Sun. Hubble, therefore, concluded that the redshift phenomenon was an unknown property of space and not a measurement of true space velocity. Astronomers later realized that redshift was a consequence of the expansion of space itself, as predicted in Einstein's theory of special relativity.
However, the age estimate is only as reliable as the accuracy of the distance measurements. A precise value for the Hubble constant is a critical anchor point for calibrating other fundamental cosmological parameters for the universe.
When the Hubble Space Telescope was launched, the uncertainly over the universe’s expansion rate was off by a factor of two. This meant that the universe could be as young as 9.7 billion years or as old as 19.5 billion years. The younger value presented a huge problem; it would mean the universe was younger than the oldest known stars.
EXPAND Early Hubble observations looked for cosmic milepost markers, the Cepheid variable stars, in ever-farther galaxies. The galaxy M100, located 56 million light-years away, is shown here. These data refined estimates for the expansion rate of the universe.
In 1994, astronomers began refining the Hubble constant by making precise distance measurements out to the Virgo cluster of galaxies, located 56 million light-years away. This allowed astronomers to begin refining distance measurements that are needed to calculate a more precise value for the Hubble constant. They made observations of a class of star called Cepheid Variables. These stars go through rhythmic pulsations where they slightly rise and fall in brightness. The period of this oscillation is directly linked to the Cepheid’s intrinsic brightness. Once the star’s true brightness is known, astronomers can calculate a precise distance to it.
By the late 1990s, the refined value of the Hubble constant was reduced to an error of only about 10 percent. Another team of astronomers continues to streamline and strengthen this by calibrating more Cepheids ever more distant than the local universe. These data were cross-correlated with even farther milepost measurements of exploding stars, supernovas, to build a cosmic “distance ladder.” The measurement of the Hubble constant improved from 10 percent uncertainty at the start of the 2000s to less than 2 percent by 2019.