The DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOGIC and REASON

Author: oromagi
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#31
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@3RU7AL
how do you specifically propose we disentangle "logic" from "reason"

Logic = algorithm ---ergo programmed calculations---  via linear set or possible branching set of processes, that may, or may not have  feedback mechanisms to reference what may exist outside of the algorithm programming, before a final resultant conclusion is acquired.

Reason = logic and common sense ergo, a potential for a more wholistic consideration that is beyond the linear or branching processes of an algorithm aka complex biologic consciousness, that, may ask self-referencing questions, that may consider the shared commonalities of what it means to a living being with feelings, that, are resultants of all five or more senses exist in synergetic combinations. 
#32
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@oromagi
Foundation Series
1} Yeah classic favorite trilogy, and I read the next two or three that continued the series and he authored. After he died, a couple of other more  authors { Baer? }  another dude tried to carry on, but those books were quite boring.

2} Roger Zelazny"s Nine Princes of Amber and Jack of Shadows were also favorites of mine, as well as,

3} some of Phillip Hose Farmers ..'To Our Scattered Bodies Go '..which led to the Riverboat series,

4} the Piers Anthony triology.
#33
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@3RU7AL
those who act only for the promise of reward (heaven) are mercenaries
Praise { ego } and competition { ego }

those who act only out of fear of punishment (hell) are slaves

Blame { ego } and desire to feel competent, that, may not come often enough...?.....

#34
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@ebuc
a potential for a more wholistic consideration that is beyond the linear or branching processes of an algorithm aka complex biologic consciousness, that, may ask self-referencing questions, that may consider the shared commonalities of what it means to a living being with feelings, that, are resultants of all five or more senses exist in synergetic combinations. 
aka mumbojumbo crust with a nice creamy mysticism filling.

I suspect that whatever cannot be said clearly is probably not being thought clearly either. - Peter Singer (and according to oromagirules I've just invoked a "great man" so anything I may have asserted is now unassailable)

The only important part in this paragraph is "wholistic", referring to the whole.

This isn't a different part of reasoning off in it's own pen safe from the silly baffonary of "pure reason", it's intrinsic to rationality and always has been. To think otherwise is only an indication of a perverse philosophical education.

It's very simple: There is one reality, and the rational creature should not be content to accept contradictions between any of his beliefs because to do so would be to tolerate believing falsehood.

Any example one might bring forward of "common sense" vs "logic" can easily and immediately be restated in full context to show that the correct answer is logical and the wrong answer is not.

This whole inane discussion almost needs to be recorded for posterity, it's like saying "real numbers aren't the whole picture, there are also integers"
#35
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@ADreamOfLiberty
aka mumbojumbo crust with a nice creamy mysticism filling.
The proof  is in the pudding ----"creamy"--- the truth is in the Meta-space mind.

Any example one might bring forward of "common sense" vs "logic" can easily and immediately be restated in full context to show that the correct answer is logical and the wrong answer is not.

Intelligence vs common sense is is only briefly  addressed here below

Common sense is not rare, and is commonly used on daily basis by most humans via in complement to intelligent/smart choices/decissions, so as not make a jack-ass of themselves  See Jack-ass movies. LINK 

..." Common sense crucial to AI programs....

... Common sense is the knowledge that all humans have. Such knowledge is unspoken and unwritten – we take it for granted. We acquire it imperceptibly from the day we are born. For example, “animals don’t drive cars” or “my mother is older than me”. This knowledge is often used by human experts even when solving very narrow, domain-specific tasks. This common-sense knowledge is something that we learn through experience and curiosity without even being aware of it. We also acquire a great deal of it in our lifetimes. "...

....AI systems do not have common sense knowledge and acquiring it has been seen as important since their beginning. Furthermore, from all the efforts made over many years, it’s become evident that building common sense reasoning systems is a work-intensive and sometimes costly task. In this paper, I show why common sense reasoning is so important, and describe some approaches that have been used to build these systems. These approaches have enabled common sense reasoning tasks to be used as add-ons to AI client programs – such as Chatbots.....

...One of the founding fathers of AI, John McCarthy, was amongst the first to realize its importance. He wrote a paper that was the first to propose common sense reasoning through a hypothetical program called Advice Taker in 1959. This paper only described a specification for what a common-sense program should do. However, it soon became apparent that there was a need for working common sense knowledge programs to assist decision making in AI expert systems. These systems represented the first commercial boom period for AI, so common sense knowledge became seen as an essential adjunct for their success.

....The reason why common sense reasoning was seen as important was that many of these systems were very competent at problem-solving, but they were also brittle, because, they often gave meaningless answers when trying to reason with unusual problem data. For instance, as I show later, a medical diagnostic expert system didn’t realize that it was given car data when it diagnosed a car with measles ".....etc

So most of the latter above is in regards to AI and not intelligence.

1} common sense, ---basis for smart decission making ---

2} intelligence, ---combination of common sense and intelligent/smart decission making---

3} AI --smart/intelligent programming---

#36
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...." This states: “To behave intelligently in unexpected situations, an agent must be capable of falling back on increasingly general knowledge and analogising to specific but far-flung knowledge”......

ergo more wholistic,

...." The knowledge base is not a database – it consists of real-world axioms that CYC uses to reason about the world and understand your data. CYC’s KB includes more than 10,000 predicates, millions of collections and concepts, and more than 25 million assertions”. However, there were shortcomings identified with the CYC project – particularly dealing with the ambiguities of human language. ....

....This semantic network knowledge-base contains over 1.6 million assertions of common sense knowledge such as the spatial, physical, social, and psychological aspects of everyday life. It was launched in 1999 at the MIT Media Lab and began as a system called Open Mind Common Sense. It has been successfully used in Chatbots and some natural language support. "...

...." DARPA the US defense department’s research agency, has also recognized the absence of common sense as being an important issue. They recently launched a project called Machine Common Sense. As they say:“ The absence of common sense prevents intelligent systems from understanding their world, behaving reasonably in unforeseen situations, communicating naturally with people, and learning from new experiences. Its absence is considered the most significant barrier between the narrowly focused AI applications of today and the more general, human-like AI systems hoped for in the future”. DARPA’s approach is to use a two-pronged strategy. The first strategy in their proposal involves building computational models that learn from experience. The second strategy seeks to develop a service that learns from reading the Web, like a research librarian, to construct a common sense knowledge repository. "....



#37
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@ebuc
aka mumbojumbo crust with a nice creamy mysticism filling.
The proof  is in the pudding ----"creamy"--- the truth is in the Meta-space mind.
Uh huh, and in the meta-space mind ad populum is totally kosher, in fact it might be an infinite strawberry field for all you know.

P.S. I glanced over this AI stuff, reading stuff like that and also most of the body of commentary from Google has left me completely convinced they will not achieve AI, they don't even know the problem and that explain why their greatest "successes" have come from black-box neural networks.
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#38
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@ebuc
1} Yeah classic favorite trilogy, and I read the next two or three that continued the series and he authored. After he died, a couple of other more  authors { Baer? }  another dude tried to carry on, but those books were quite boring.

agree.  So much sci-f works that way.

2} Roger Zelazny"s Nine Princes of Amber and Jack of Shadows were also favorites of mine, as well as,
Love Zelazny!  I know HBO bought rights to "Roadmarks" last year.

3} some of Phillip Hose Farmers ..'To Our Scattered Bodies Go '..which led to the Riverboat series,
Mark Twain and Burton vs King John  and Hermann Goering?  Machine gun mounted Steamboats vs hang gliders? Cancer free smoking with Neanderthals?  Travel by suicide?  Marvelous.

4} the Piers Anthony triology.
I assume you mean Xanth.  I enjoyed the first few but I guess I have a lower tolerance for pun-based magic than others (there are 47 books in that series now).
I like his Adept series and Immortals series but I wouldn't put Anthony on the same level of the others discussed.

#39
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@oromagi
Love Zelazny!  I know HBO bought rights to "Roadmarks" last year.

Wow, I remmber the cover, but none of the story, even after reading wiki. Hope HBO does something with it. Farme may have got his ideas from Zelazny.

Mark Twain and Burton vs King John  and Hermann Goering?  Machine gun mounted Steamboats vs hang gliders? Cancer free smoking with Neanderthals?  Travel by suicide?  Marvelous.

I read ' To Our Scattered Bodies Go ' first, and that was only the beginning of Riverboat series and the large mushrooms supplying stuff, and diving into river to die, only to be reborn. 

4} the Piers Anthony triology.
I assume you mean Xanth. I like his Adept series and Immortals series but I wouldn't put Anthony on the same level of the others discussed.

It was the Adept Triology. Blue Adept if I recall correctly. IF there were more in that trilogy I didnt read them. I did read his Carnivore book and that was last one.

Robert Dean Foster had couple of good books I liked also, but, Asimov was definitely top of my list, with Zelazny 2nd.

My first love as youngerster was Doc Savage and I must have had 35 or so of those books.  Then came Conan series, then Foundation trilogy. I reread Foundation some 10 or more years later. 

When will Foundation be a movie or series?????

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#40
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@ebuc
Wow, I remmber the cover, but none of the story, even after reading wiki. Hope HBO does something with it. Farme may have got his ideas from Zelazny.
How about that assassin Tyrannosaurus Rex cybernetically controlled by the Maquis de Sade?  Does that ring a bell?

Strangulena luring men to her lair in the bombed out ruins of Manhattan?  No?

I read ' To Our Scattered Bodies Go ' first, and that was only the beginning of Riverboat series and the large mushrooms supplying stuff, and diving into river to die, only to be reborn. 
The aliens' ultimate motivations are pretty astonishing.

Robert Dean Foster had couple of good books I liked also, but, Asimov was definitely top of my list, with Zelazny 2nd.
I've read Foster some.  He wrote the novelization of Star Wars and then immediately wrote a sequel before the original movie came out.  He was hoping Splinter of the Mind's Eye would get picked up for a sequel but Luke and Leia are all over each other in that one so even though it is a pretty good adventure, its not well remembered in the Canon.

My first love as youngerster was Doc Savage and I must have had 35 or so of those books.  Then came Conan series, then Foundation trilogy. I reread Foundation some 10 or more years later. 
I read a couple of early Doc Savages and all of Robert E. Howard's crazy early Conan shit- they were sort all over the place in terms of storytelling but still just core worldmaking for D&D and Heavy Metal Magazine.  My early days as dungeonmaster were all about trying to give Hyperborean feel.

When will Foundation be a movie or series?????
Came out on Apple TV this spring!  It gets decent reviews but it does not seem to have inspired much buzz, does it?  There so many great works that it would be fun to bring to life but the results are so regularly disappointing that it is hard to get excited.  I enjoyed The Expanse and I think GoT actually surpassed the author but most just make me sad.

#41
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@oromagi
How about that assassin Tyrannosaurus Rex cybernetically controlled by the Maquis de Sade?  Does that ring a bell?
Strangulena luring men to her lair in the bombed out ruins of Manhattan?  No?
Rex vaguely, Marquis, but they may been whole other book. But I did have that book cause i remmber the cover

I've read Foster some.  He wrote the novelization of Star Wars
Didnt know that.  He is more light duty, junior high or so stuff.  The one book I recall was a man who lived in a extra-large spacesuit, as it suppllied all of his needs and he was on this planet with all of these crystals.

I read a couple of early Doc Savages
He killed people in first five books, then developed guns that would only stun. Not well written story telling, but fine for my age group of super-hero, that went off to far flung places around the globe. They made a poor C or B grade movie with the actor who played TV tarzan in mid 60's as Doc.  Eli Whitney or something.

Came out on Apple TV this spring!  It gets decent reviews but it does not seem to have inspired much buzz, does it? 
Darn I dont have access to Apple tv

I enjoyed The Expanse and I think GoT actually surpassed the author but most just make me sad.

My adult-step son liked the Expanse. I started to watch it but did not give it enough time to really get into. Must try again.
#42
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Uh huh, and in the meta-space mind ad populum is totally kosher, in fact it might be an infinite strawberry field for all you know.
Huh? Only two primary types of infinite and ive laid them out clearly for some years now:

..1} macro-infinite non-occupied space, ---meta-Universe/God---,

....2} Meta-space concepts of infinite this or that ex mathmatical infinite is a concept, knowing more nothing less and this is the catagory where your "infinite strawberry field " is found.

P.S. I glanced over this AI stuff, reading stuff like that and also most of the body of commentary from Google has left me completely convinced they will not achieve AI, they don't even know the problem and that explain why their greatest "successes" have come from black-box neural networks.
Huh?  AI has already exist for some years now.  I think you confusing AI with and AI that has achieved human consciousness and more complex consciousness as access to Meta-space mind/intellence/concepts. 

Logic = algorithm ---ergo programmed or progrmable calculations---........ 

Reason = logic and common sense ergo, a potential for a more wholistic consideration that is beyond the linear ....

Roger Penrose makes, --- in his book Emperors New Mind'---  makes four distinctions between AI and consciousness, tho  I make the distinction between less complex consciousness   .....to access to Meta-space mind/intelligence/concept and ego.....  since all animals have consciousness to whatever degree:

His consciousness has appreciation of art, judgement of truth, and I forget the other two. See this LINK below of a person  --narrator--  whose is critical of Penroses ideas of consciousness not being AI { an algotrithm }.

..." To put in very simple terms: no matter what we add to our mathematical system, a new Gödel sentence (or truth) will arise. And the truth of that Gödel sentence can only be discovered via Platonic insight, not by the use of yet another algorithm.

....To broadly comment — critically — on Penrose’s position as just expressed.

.....No one — not even a person Penrose (dismissively) calls “formalist” — would ever deny that there are elements of reasoning, judgments, thinking, etc. outside the system which the mathematician is presently dealing with. No one needs to be an across-the-board Gödelian to realise and accept that. So that means that we can indeed also “leap outside the rigid confinements of any formal system” to reason, think, etc. about the said system.

.....Yet should we draw all the same conclusions as Penrose himself does about all this?"...

#43
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@ebuc
Huh?  AI has already exist for some years now.
*sigh* talk about lowering the bar.

Logic = algorithm ---ergo programmed or progrmable calculations---........ 

Reason = logic and common sense ergo, a potential for a more wholistic consideration that is beyond the linear ....
Reason = logic consistently applied with all conclusions being crosschecked (integrated) with the total body of knowledge.
#44
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Reason = logic consistently applied with all conclusions being crosschecked (integrated) with the total body of knowledge.
Huh? no one has "access to total body of knowledge." i.e. youur dreaming. I guess that is why the word dream is in your identity.

You dream or wish you had "access to total body of knowledge ".

There is the joke of someone from ancient past comes to exist here today, and we say,

we have all of the knowledge known to humans on this little device we hold here in our hands and we call it an iphone, and the person from past --lets say some great intellectual--- says,

wow, so what do people mostly talk about?, to which person with iphone in hands says, oh, we mostly just send pictures of our cats to each other.  :--))
#45
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@ebuc
Huh? no one has "access to total body of knowledge."
Every mind has a total body of knowledge, the a rational person is consciously aware of the need to remove falsehoods from that body by reasoning/applying logic.
#46
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Every mind has a total body of knowledge, the a rational person is consciously aware of the need to remove falsehoods from that body by reasoning/applying logic.
Huh?  Your still dreaming of a reality that does not exist ex Ive forgotten lot a of knowledge and on bad days I cant even remmber some friends names, and I presume most other people not that much differrent for varying for age etc.

I have access to more or less of knowledge base, depending, and never have access to the total of all accumulated knowledge over many years.
#47
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@oromagi

The DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOGIC and REASON
I’m gonna go with connotations.

Logic is treated as more cold and calculated while reason is treated as more reflective. 
#48
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@ebuc
Huh?  Your still dreaming of a reality that does not exist ex Ive forgotten lot a of knowledge and on bad days I cant even remmber some friends names, and I presume most other people not that much differrent for varying for age etc.
Well I dreamed that if you forgot something you knew it once, which meant it was part of your body of knowledge once, which means you had a body of knowledge; and since you're communicating in some form of English you still do.
#49
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Well I dreamed that if you forgot something you knew it once, which meant it was part of your body of knowledge once, which means you had a body of knowledge; and since you're communicating in some form of English you still do.

..." total body of knowledge " includes all that has and is known by humans, so you dropped that claim --I guess--, and, tried to put it another way,

..." total body of knowledge " of the each individual human, and now you want to change it again, as,

... " total of body of knowldege " that we may or may not have access to on any given day, and you've dropped that,

..." crosschecked (integrated) with the total body of knowledge.  ', whcih should be stated as that body of knowledge we can access at some given moment in time { day, month, year etc }.
#50
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@ebuc
..." total body of knowledge " includes all that has and is known by humans, so you dropped that claim --I guess--, and, tried to put it another way,
No I didn't drop a claim I didn't make. Although the same point can and should be made on the collective level.

A rational civilization is committed to resolving contradictions in its collective body of knowledge so as to make the result a more perfect reflection of the truth.

and now you want to change it again, as,
No change occurred, you made an assumption about some platonic ideal and pasted it onto my sentence which implies no such thing.
#51
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To me logic is looking at something for what it is and acknowledging it is what it is. Reason is the ability to manipulate "what is" in your favor or benefit.

263 days later

#52
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Logic and reasoning are two related but distinct concepts.

Logic is a system of principles used to evaluate arguments and reasoning. It is concerned with the principles of valid reasoning and argumentation, and it provides a framework for evaluating the truth or falsity of a statement or argument. In other words, logic is the study of the principles of correct reasoning.

On the other hand, reasoning is the cognitive process of drawing conclusions or making inferences from available information or premises. It involves using evidence, facts, and principles to arrive at a conclusion or decision. In other words, reasoning is the mental process of working through a problem or question to reach a conclusion.

While logic is a formal system of principles, reasoning is a more general term that encompasses various types of mental processes that lead to a conclusion. Logic provides a set of tools and principles that can be used in the process of reasoning to ensure that the conclusion reached is valid and based on sound principles.

In summary, logic is a set of principles used to evaluate arguments and reasoning, while reasoning is the process of drawing conclusions or making inferences based on available information or premises.