The Four Stages of Republican Misinformation

Author: Double_R

Posts

Total: 170
Topic's author
#121
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,283
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@thett3
Leftists casually use the term “white male” or “white people” as an insult or a term of invective, so it would take quite a bit for me to put in with the side that does that. I’m sure you can understand.
Not really. My politics is based on my values and policy preferences. I don’t understand the whole team sport thing.

the American leftist position is firmly that these children should be offered puberty blockers and other “gender affirming care” up to and including surgeries.
The leftist position, if there is one here, is that these kinds of decisions should be left up to families and their doctors. I couldn’t care less what the statistics say, one day if my daughter is going through this I will go to a doctor with my wife, learn about and understand the issue, then make whatever decision makes the most sense. Til then voting based on this seems ridiculous to me.

Censorship is unfortunately much more of a left wing value than a right wing value in todays politics. For example, 65% of democrats believe that the government (!) should intervene to suppress “false” information compared to 28% of republicans
I think the rhetoric has a lot more to do with the disparity than any difference in values. If it were the left was the side constantly calling for civil war I’m pretty sure the right would find plenty to censor there.

I mean look at how there are now calls to defund the FBI, cancel culture is not a left wing thing. The right is far more egregious with it, they just don’t have popular support for the things that bother them within our society.

I wish that none of those people were winning primaries. Does it bother you at least a little bit that the Democratic Party has spent millions boosting “election deniers” because they think they’ll be easier to beat?
I don’t care for it, they’re playing with fire. But those crazies would not be a threat if a significant portion of the base didn’t want this. So while you talk about being against cancel culture and gender surgery, two examples of things no one on the left cares about, right wing voters are on the cusp of putting election deniers in actual office overseeing actual elections. When it comes to relevance and significance these two things are not equal.
#122
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Double_R
The leftist position, if there is one here, is that these kinds of decisions should be left up to families and their doctors. I couldn’t care less what the statistics say, one day if my daughter is going through this I will go to a doctor with my wife, learn about and understand the issue, then make whatever decision makes the most sense. Til then voting based on this seems ridiculous to me.
well stated
#123
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Double_R
a significant portion
have you seen the participation rates for primary elections ?
#124
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Double_R
Not really. My politics is based on my values and policy preferences. I don’t understand the whole team sport thing.
That’s good, but not everyone is like that. Here’s another example, the Minneapolis school district just implemented a policy where if there are layoffs, white teachers will be laid off first, regardless of seniority. I have sympathy for group(s) that started out in a worse position which is why I support policies that help lift people up, but the left has gone far enough with its anti white rhetoric that it’s alienated a lot of normal people and seeped into actual policy. I’m not comfortable around people whose policies include the idea that people like me or my family should be passed over for positions and school slots we are qualified for in order to give those slots to unqualified people, that we should be the first to go when there are layoffs, that our very presence is violent or oppressive or in general a bad thing. 

I think either party would win if they could manage to excise their crazies. Many of the crazies on the left are openly racist against white people…so it’s not a surprise that for many white people coalitioning with these people is a non starter. 


The leftist position, if there is one here, is that these kinds of decisions should be left up to families and their doctors. I couldn’t care less what the statistics say, one day if my daughter is going through this I will go to a doctor with my wife, learn about and understand the issue, then make whatever decision makes the most sense. Til then voting based on this seems ridiculous to me.
My position is that those doctors should lose their license to practice medicine and should face criminal penalties. So there’s definitely a distinct difference there haha

It’s a minor (but rapidly growing) issue but I think that it demonstrates a bigger issue where my philosophy conflicts with that of the left. See post 115. The leftist position on gender, among leftists who think on their philosophy seriously and follow it to their full conclusion, is that it’s essentially an oppressive construct that pigeonholes people into patterns of behavior and social expectations they didn’t choose. Thus if someone wants to wholly reject their birth gender they should be able to do that, and we’re violating their decision by not treating them as the gender they wish to be. 

I think a fuller accounting of human nature would accept that many many things are outside of our control, and that the question of “who am I?” Isn’t really something anyone can just decide but is instead a complex tapestry of your genetics, your experiences, your social and family dynamics... in reality very little of it is by choice and much of it is all but set in stone. It’s more accurate to say that the “self” is a specific DNA sequence that’s been exposed to a certain set of social experiences (like family and culture.) Thus nobody can change their gender, or “discover” that they are a different gender. It’s baked into our DNA and how we’ve interacted with society our entire lives. What’s actually happening is that the individual gets hyper fixated on a certain idea, an impossible idea, of the “self” unencumbered by social history or biology, somehow being transferred to a different body. When the fixation gets too out of control it eventually consumes the entire personality and the victim engages in self harm/mutiliation to try and brute force their body into resembling something it will never be. 

That’s my thoughts anyway. I don’t see it as helping people or being nice, I see it as the abuse of the mentally ill, and just one example of how good intentions can lead to horrible consequences if the starting assumptions are wrong. But yeah it’s easier for me to tolerate nonsense from republicans simply because I am not a leftist. I don’t have any philosophical objection to someone thinking that the 2020 election was stolen, I think it wasn’t but that such a thing would be possible. Whereas I think that the root of leftist philosophy is actually false

I think the rhetoric has a lot more to do with the disparity than any difference in values. If it were the left was the side constantly calling for civil war I’m pretty sure the right would find plenty to censor there.

I mean look at how there are now calls to defund the FBI, cancel culture is not a left wing thing. The right is far more egregious with it, they just don’t have popular support for the things that bother them within our society.
I would disagree that cancel culture is worse on the right. Even if they had the greater impulse (unproven, the limited evidence is that right leaning people are more open to minority opinions) they don’t have the power to do so. The right wing hostility towards many institutions is because they believe that those institutions have been ideologically captured…and I would argue that for the most part they have been. To talk about the FBI for example, a whistleblower recently leaked that there was intense pressure from high up in the organization to mislabel as many incidents as possible as “right wing domestic extremism”, and an additional whistleblower came forward to allege that the FBI intentionally falsely portrayed the Hunter Biden laptop story as false/disinformation …I would say your group being slandered by an organization that runs cover for your political opponents is good reason to distrust it. 

So while you talk about being against cancel culture and gender surgery, two examples of things no one on the left cares about, right wing voters are on the cusp of putting election deniers in actual office overseeing actual elections. When it comes to relevance and significance these two things are not equal.
I mean the things I’m complaining about are a facet of our social and political environment just as much as election deniers are. If one bothers you more than the other that’s fine, but both sides have problems and things they are wrong about
#125
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,051
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
My position is that those doctors should lose their license to practice medicine and should face criminal penalties.
Have you seen the lawsuit against the NHS transgender surgery center?


It’s a minor (but rapidly growing) issue but I think that it demonstrates a bigger issue where my philosophy conflicts with that of the left. See post 115. The leftist position on gender, among leftists who think on their philosophy seriously and follow it to their full conclusion, is that it’s essentially an oppressive construct that pigeonholes people into patterns of behavior and social expectations they didn’t choose. Thus if someone wants to wholly reject their birth gender they should be able to do that, and we’re violating their decision by not treating them as the gender they wish to be. 
That's what happens when government leaders prop up bad science and negligent doctors. The people gravitate toward the bad doctors because they had faith that the government cared about them.
#126
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
I do also kinda give people a pass for thinking the election was stolen. It took me a lot of research (that I could’ve gotten banned from platforms for /:) to conclude that ultimately no, it was not. If an election WAS stolen I would expect it to look something like this

The party that is behind the entire night suddenly pulls ahead thanks to winning the final votes counted, which come from notoriously corrupt areas and did not report until everyone else did, by Soviet tier margins. These final votes provide just enough margin to put that party ahead in all the places it needs to win. The election is followed by immediate suppression and censorship of anyone questioning the validity of the election. Propaganda outlets publish puff pieces declaring the election “the most secure in history”

The 2020 election wasn’t stolen but I could make a much better case that it was than that Bruce Jenner is a woman 
#127
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,051
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
I mean the things I’m complaining about are a facet of our social and political environment just as much as election deniers are.
I'm not worried about election deniers when they have zero control over the federal police state.

That could change though.
#128
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Greyparrot
Have you seen the lawsuit against the NHS transgender surgery center?
Yes, and it’s coming here. Very pleased to be on “the right side of history” on this one. I am fully confident that in 10 years nobody will be willing to admit they supported “gender affirming care” for teenagers and preteens 
#129
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,051
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
The only thing better than being an oppressed victim is creating a child and turning that child into an oppressed victim making you a proud parent of a victim.
#130
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Greyparrot
Yes many of the parents are quite pleased to have a “trans” child…the rise is coming overwhelmingly from teenage girls, and it always clusters in friend groups. Usually in extremely liberal areas but it also happens among the same set that in previous eras would’ve cut themselves or become anorexic. It’s just so unbelievably obvious what’s happening
Topic's author
#131
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,283
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@thett3
I’m not comfortable around people whose policies include the idea that people like me or my family should be passed over for positions and school slots we are qualified for in order to give those slots to unqualified people, that we should be the first to go when there are layoffs, that our very presence is violent or oppressive or in general a bad thing. 
But this is for the most part little more than a caricature. The example you have isn’t even a law, it’s a contract provision negotiated by the school district and the teachers union. I think it’s a terrible way to do things, but to pretend that this “is” the left is hardly any different than me pretending that “liberals eat babies” is the political right.

What’s actually happening is that the individual gets hyper fixated on a certain idea, an impossible idea, of the “self” unencumbered by social history or biology, somehow being transferred to a different body. When the fixation gets too out of control it eventually consumes the entire personality and the victim engages in self harm/mutiliation to try and brute force their body into resembling something it will never be.
Will never be says who? What do you know about a trans person’s struggle and what is driving them to make the ultimate decision to go under the knife? And why does this matter to you to the point where is factors into how you vote?

What I am seeing here through your whole post with regards to this position is an overwhelming sense of you having the right to decide what’s best for other people and how other people should live their lives, and again, it’s to such a high degree that this is one of the big issues that would have you vote for someone like a Donald Trump.

Isn’t conservatism supposed to be about small government? What ever happened to get government out of our lives? Never ceases to amaze me how fast that goes out the window once it comes to anything the right disagrees with.

I would disagree that cancel culture is worse on the right.
As the former president continues to end the political careers of everyone who spoke out against him.

To talk about the FBI for example, a whistleblower recently leaked that there was intense pressure from high up in the organization to mislabel as many incidents as possible as “right wing domestic extremism”, and an additional whistleblower came forward to allege that the FBI intentionally falsely portrayed the Hunter Biden laptop story as false/disinformation …I would say your group being slandered by an organization that runs cover for your political opponents is good reason to distrust it.
I have to note the irony of how trustworthy whistleblowers are these days in the right.

But more to the point, this is a classic example of propaganda at work. The complaints alleged in these reports are clearly from low level staffers talking about high up officials - in other words with multiple levels of separation. Do you know how messages get twisted when being passed down from level to level? It’s not that I think these reports are made up, but rather that one’s propensity to feel like their boss is pressuring them into something like this is not exactly a reliable way to understand what is happening.

But yet, on the political right, this counts as proof that the entire organization, run by a republican whom Trump appointed, is corrupt against republicans.

The real tell for me as to how absurd the whole FBI is against republicans thing is on the right came in the immediate aftermath of the raid by which I’m actually talking about an executed search warrant. The right lost it’s mind talking about corruption, planting evidence, defund the FBI, political hit job… all before any of us had the slightest clue what happened and why. Trump could have been hiding an actual nuclear bomb in the basement and republicans still attack the FBI for doing their jobs.

You can disagree with the way an organization handled any given situation, but when you attack them without even knowing what the situation is you make it clear that you don’t really care about what you’re complaining about. This is just the latest example of the political right playing the victim.

I mean the things I’m complaining about are a facet of our social and political environment just as much as election deniers are.
They’re not though. They are as much of a facet of our news diets because of the asymmetrical polarization of our media system.

Vox had a really good video on this where they talk about what they called the “hack gap”. Simply put, there is no equivalent on the left to Fox News. Left wing media still tries to act neutral, which is what news is supposed to be. Fox News meanwhile started off with the explicit mission of “putting the GOP on television”. And because of the desire of actual news organizations to seem legitimate they constantly play to whatever Fox News is talking about, giving them incredible power to set the agenda.

So what does this power look like? In a conversation between two people on opposite ends of the spectrum discussing their differences the two biggest topics that have come up are gender surgeries and election denying, two things that would not be news anywhere if not for right wing outlets like Fox News making it news.
#132
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Double_R
But this is for the most part little more than a caricature. The example you have isn’t even a law, it’s a contract provision negotiated by the school district and the teachers union. I think it’s a terrible way to do things, but to pretend that this “is” the left is hardly any different than me pretending that “liberals eat babies” is the political right.
It’s not a caricature. It’s policy downstream of the anti-white position held by the left, which itself is downstream of some faulty assumptions (see post 115.) This itself results in bad policies, like letting nationwide riots do billions in damage and kill dozens of people, insanely lenient sentences or lack of prosecutions by DA’s like George Gascon, encouraging a toxic and resentful social environment that results in the first meaningful increase in the homicide rate since the 1990s…etc. Not to mention long running policies like racial discrimination against white people in university admissions, the removal of standardized testing and objective criteria for government jobs etc. The belief in “equity” (NOT equality) is like THE fundamental issue motivating the left right now. And I think it’s based on a false assumption, and I have made a good argument to that effect. There’s a whole nexus of policies based on this assumption that destroy wealth and productivity. And yes I do find it personally alienating which also motivates my behavior. Sorry I have a hard time putting in with the group that says “whiteness” is something inherently bad. Imagine if I were criticizing high crime rates in some black communities and said I was criticizing “blackness”…I’m sure blacks people would understandable not be comfortable around me. 

“Liberals eat babies” is a facet of the political right. There really are people that believe that sort of thing. If someone’s top issue is being pro choice the extreme rhetoric on some of the right about abortion is obviously going to alienate them. Both sides have their crazies it’s just a matter of who you think is more harmful. 

Will never be says who? What do you know about a trans person’s struggle and what is driving them to make the ultimate decision to go under the knife? And why does this matter to you to the point where is factors into how you vote?

What I am seeing here through your whole post with regards to this position is an overwhelming sense of you having the right to decide what’s best for other people and how other people should live their lives, and again, it’s to such a high degree that this is one of the big issues that would have you vote for someone like a Donald Trump.
Says reality. I wrote several posts to that effect. You can disagree but it would be better to address the argument in that case. Around 2% of teenagers are now “trans”, it strains disbelief that 2% of a sexually dimorphic species are people born into the “wrong” body. 

I don’t have the right to dictate how adults behave, although there is an ethical debate about if surgeons ought to remove healthy organs for elective reasons and I would firmly come down on the side that no, it is not ethical. But being against child abuse isn’t something that’s controversial. Here’s a single that’s done over 100 “gender affirming” surgeries (mutilations) on minors 


Here’s another hospital that performed 33 mutilations on minors in a period of 6 months, including a 13 year old: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/2674039

Who knows how many thousands of surgeries have occurred to say nothing of the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of kids are on puberty blockers or opposite sex hormones that not recommended or are banned in more sane countries like most of Europe. 

Its true that this doesn’t really effect my life much (unless God forbid one of my kids falls into this trap and gets taken away from me because I refuse to “affirm” their gender—something that has happened.) But I think systemic child abuse of mentally ill kids is pretty much the epitome of evil. And any ideology that is good with this is something I’m adamantly opposed to. After all, if someone’s starting assumptions are so wrong that they think a double mastectomy on a 13 year old girl is a reasonable action…what ELSE are they dreadfully wrong about? 

You can disagree with the way an organization handled any given situation, but when you attack them without even knowing what the situation is you make it clear that you don’t really care about what you’re complaining about. This is just the latest example of the political right playing the victim.
I agree, which is why I’m being silent on the Trump raid. I simply don’t have enough info. Let’s put it another way…what are some institutions you believe are biased in favor of the right? 

They’re not though. They are as much of a facet of our news diets because of the asymmetrical polarization of our media system.

Vox had a really good video on this where they talk about what they called the “hack gap”. Simply put, there is no equivalent on the left to Fox News. Left wing media still tries to act neutral, which is what news is supposed to be. Fox News meanwhile started off with the explicit mission of “putting the GOP on television”. And because of the desire of actual news organizations to seem legitimate they constantly play to whatever Fox News is talking about, giving them incredible power to set the agenda.
There’s no equivalent to Fox News on the left because there doesn’t need to be. It exists because previous institutions were ideologically captured by the left to the point that a market opportunity for a right leaning network existed. Obviously it’s a propaganda network to tell republicans what they want to hear. I wouldn’t dispute that. Heck I wouldn’t even dispute that that’s something that’s harmful! But I also don’t care about it too much. Plenty of falsehoods even in the “respectable” publications. I would totally disagree that left wing media tries to be unbiased, they do a better job of pretending. But do you really think someone with opinions like mine would ever be allowed to write for the NYT or the Atlantic or Vox? 
#133
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Double_R
Simply put, there is no equivalent on the left to Fox News.
#134
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@thett3
Its true that this doesn’t really effect my life much (unless God forbid one of my kids falls into this trap and gets taken away from me because I refuse to “affirm” their gender—something that has happened.) But I think systemic child abuse of mentally ill kids is pretty much the epitome of evil.
A months long New York Times investigation has uncovered a digital underworld of child sexual abuse imagery that is hiding in plain sight. In part one of a two-part series, we look at the almost unfathomable scale of the problem — and just how little is being done to stop it. [**]
Topic's author
#135
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,283
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@thett3
It’s not a caricature. It’s policy downstream of the anti-white position held by the left
1. Do you believe white privilege exists in this country?

2. If yes, do you believe we as a society should be doing something to ensure everyone has an equal footing?

3. If yes and yes, what policy could possibly be proposed to address this that you would not consider anti-white?

But I think systemic child abuse of mentally ill kids is pretty much the epitome of evil. And any ideology that is good with this is something I’m adamantly opposed to. After all, if someone’s starting assumptions are so wrong that they think a double mastectomy on a 13 year old girl is a reasonable action…what ELSE are they dreadfully wrong about?
In a situation where a minor, the minors parents, and their doctor all get together to discuss a possible medical procedure, who do you believe should get to decide what happens next?

There’s no equivalent to Fox News on the left because there doesn’t need to be. It exists because previous institutions were ideologically captured by the left to the point that a market opportunity for a right leaning network existed. Obviously it’s a propaganda network to tell republicans what they want to hear. I wouldn’t dispute that.
So basically, there was a market on the right for a propaganda outlet to tell right wingers what they want to hear. Yes, I agree.

The whole idea of all of our institutions being captured by left wing ideology always tickles me though. What exactly do you think is behind that? Do you not question why that is?
#136
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Double_R
1. Do you believe white privilege exists in this country?

2. If yes, do you believe we as a society should be doing something to ensure everyone has an equal footing?

3. If yes and yes, what policy could possibly be proposed to address this that you would not consider anti-white?
I think the real “white privilege” was being a full member of society (or having your parents or grandparents) as early as possible. We can see in history and recent developments that as the economy continues to develop and the country gets older (demographically speaking) wealth gets more and more difficult to build and social status gets more and more frozen. The easiest example is how much more difficult it is for millennials to buy a home than boomers in many parts of the country. In the long term I see the country becoming more like California, which has a literal landed gentry class and insane wealth inequality.

But soooo many white families missed that boat too. Most of them. I don’t see a reason why any policy has to be race specific. For example one of the things I most fervently support is transitioning the school system to something closer to the German model where the kids who aren’t going to college learn trades and take on apprenticeships instead of prepping for a college career that never comes. Bringing back as many manufacturing jobs as possible even if that means intervening in the free market. Importantly these jobs would often be outside the super expensive major metros. Providing incentives to build more homes, and try to reverse the centralization of jobs in fewer and fewer expensive metro areas. Some kind of school voucher system so smart poor kids aren’t trapped in hellscape schools. Expanding the child tax credit. None of this has anything to do with race but would help poor people of all races. I might support some kind of affirmative action based on socioeconomic status but probably not. 

When it comes to medical school and stuff like that it has to be 100% merit based. I don’t care at all about fairness or equity. Medical malpractice is one of the leading causes of death in this country. It’s easy to look at high status jobs and only think about the prestige that goes along with them, but they usually aren’t sinecures. Doctors, lawyers, C-suite executives…these are all very high status and high paying jobs in part because they are extremely important as well as cognitively and emotionally challenging. These jobs being performed as well as possible benefits society as a whole 

In a situation where a minor, the minors parents, and their doctor all get together to discuss a possible medical procedure, who do you believe should get to decide what happens next?
It shouldn’t be legal to cut off a 13 year olds breasts or genitals for elective reasons. I’ll die on that hill. 

The whole idea of all of our institutions being captured by left wing ideology always tickles me though. What exactly do you think is behind that? Do you not question why that is?
I think about that all the time. The fact that the elites of society, many of whom I know are smarter than me, lean one way more and more as time goes on is probably the only thing that makes me doubt my worldview. But then I look at all the stuff they do that is obviously counter productive or things they believe that are obviously false. Have you been to the Bay Area recently? Like 40% of people are still wearing masks! Or like how Biden can’t even secure the border, or even whip his administration into trying, even though maintaining sovereignty over territory one of the most fundamental purposes of a state. I laid out my view on progressive philosophy in post #115

 I also wonder how truly “progressive” a lot of these people and places are vs how much is just good ole fashion outgroup hating. Like how progressive is California really? If you really think about it. Outside of the cultural trappings it’s like a cyberpunk hyper capitalist dystopia. Why the “left” is so much better at institutional capture is a complicated question and one I haven’t cracked yet. Do you have a good theory? One thing I’m sure of is that because the left captures institutions so effectively, it’s much more dangerous when wrong 
#137
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,051
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
What a massive truth bomb.
#138
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,051
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
 Why the “left” is so much better at institutional capture is a complicated question and one I haven’t cracked yet.
Lol, there's no mystery. The left censors wrongthink in every institution.

Neocons were created by allying with the left on censorship. (branding people as unamerican for opposing Iraq war etc)
#139
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
I also wonder how truly “progressive” a lot of these people and places are vs how much is just good ole fashion outgroup hating. Like how progressive is California really? If you really think about it. Outside of the cultural trappings…
The most “progressive” and “woke” person I know is also the most privileged. Comes from a family with a net worth of at least $10m (probably well above that), ivy league educated, mid 30s and has never worked a day in her life and doesn’t intend to, parents bought her and her husband a million dollar home in a high cost of living area and pay for their vacations…but she’s also the most openly anti white person I’ve ever met despite being white as snow, living in a super white area, marrying a white person, and not having any nonwhite friends that I know of. I remember once talking about euthanasia for the terminally ill in severe pain with her and her argument that since white people are the only group with a high enough social trust to utilize it so she didn’t support it. Helping white people was reason enough to oppose something. Has also told me I only believe the things I do because of my race and sex and used that to shut down any further discussion. 

Now what’s going on here? Is this person really progressive? I mean really? Her great wealth and privilege has not been used to benefit society in any way. She even claims to be concerned about climate change but constantly jet sets.  This behavior is little different from the aristocracy of days gone by who also blew smoke up their asses about how wonderful people they were, about how strongly they conformed to what they thought were societies ideals…and whose purported beliefs and narratives just so happened to shut the proles up as well (“God gave it to me!”) This was done either to shut the proles up or out of a genuine sense of guilt for having such an unearned great life despite all the suffering going on around you…but not enough to really change things. Just enough to try to prove to yourself “I deserve it.”

I don’t like to get too conspiratorial but it sure is convenient how toxic the racial narratives are and how easily they divide the proles. Yes your privilege absolutely comes from race which you can’t chance and not wealth which you can, how very convenient 

Anyway I think this in part has to do with the superficial progressivism of the elites 
#140
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@thett3
But soooo many white families missed that boat too. Most of them. I don’t see a reason why any policy has to be race specific. For example one of the things I most fervently support is transitioning the school system to something closer to the German model where the kids who aren’t going to college learn trades and take on apprenticeships instead of prepping for a college career that never comes.
well stated
#141
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@thett3
In a situation where a minor, the minors parents, and their doctor all get together to discuss a possible medical procedure, who do you believe should get to decide what happens next?
It shouldn’t be legal to cut off a 13 year olds breasts or genitals for elective reasons. I’ll die on that hill. 
medical privacy is sacrosanct

no politician should ever interfere with personal medical decisions
#142
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@thett3
Why the “left” is so much better at institutional capture is a complicated question and one I haven’t cracked yet.
both sides value "loyalty" but are quick to exclude people who step outside the lines (Milo Yiannopoulos)

the "left" is better at institutional capture because they are more logically consistent

it always boils down to "the greater good" for the "left"

the "right" also pursues "the greater good" but they frame it as "jesus says" and also hamstring themselves with purely superficial talk about "personal freedom" and "small government" and "free market" which are very often contrary to "the greater good"

the "right" loves to talk about "states rights" but won't hesitate to expand the power of the federal government when it suits them (PATRIOT ACT)

the "right" loves to talk about "live and let live" and "get government out of your personal life" but also demands to know when you get pregnant and what you look like naked and other "icky" stuff between consenting adults

the "left" doesn't get bogged down with these "talking points" and just says "the greater good" for everything (Wickard v. Filburn)

and of course, this makes it easy to shift policy to anything they wish, because "the greater good" is quite amorphous
#143
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@thett3
Topic's author
#144
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,283
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@thett3
I think the real “white privilege” was being a full member of society (or having your parents or grandparents) as early as possible. We can see in history and recent developments that as the economy continues to develop and the country gets older (demographically speaking) wealth gets more and more difficult to build and social status gets more and more frozen. 
I agree with you 100% and we’ve had this conversation before where I made my views clear. The issue today is that wealth/income inequality has greatly surpassed the disparity of people’s contributions to society, placing an intense focus on how we got here. And no, it’s not just about who’s parents and grandparents got here first, it’s about how they got here. Being hauled off on slave ships and being the white mans property for the first 400 years is not exactly advantageous.

But the problem as we both see it is that how we got here cannot be reversed and does little to inform us about how we move forward to fix this.

The issue I have is that people like yourself decry the left for approaching this the wrong way while ignoring the fact that at least they’re trying to fix it. What are the republicans doing about it? Not a damn thing. They talk about jobs and opportunity, but then pass trillions in tax cuts that go almost entirely to the top 1%. Almost every policy you mentioned is far more likely to be proposed by the democrats than republicans.

It shouldn’t be legal to cut off a 13 year olds breasts or genitals for elective reasons. I’ll die on that hill.
So the short answer is; you get to make this decision.

Or more accurately, the government gets to decide, which you support.

We can agree to disagree on that, although I assume this means that you’ve never been on this site and will never be in this site preaching about small government.

What I still don’t get is why? Why this hill? What is so important about this issue that it rises to the top of the list when it comes to a conversation about where we differ? What about healthcare? Education? Or hell, what about our democracy itself?

Do you have a good theory? One thing I’m sure of is that because the left captures institutions so effectively, it’s much more dangerous when wrong
I think reality seems to have a left wing bias.

Conservatism comes from the word “conserve” which is inherently ideological. It’s all about maintaining comfort.

Liberalism is pragmatic. It’s why liberals are ok with taxes being raised. No one wants to pay them, but my personal desire to keep all of my money doesn’t outweigh the need of everyone to contribute to society.

When you are in a position where you don’t need to deal with the full reality of a situation, it’s easy to default to how you’d like for things to be or think they should be. Our institutions are not in such a position. The people at the top of our society are the ones dealing with these realities so they know better. It’s why I believe there is such a large gap now in the college educated voting democratic. They understand how the world actually works.
#145
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Double_R
What I still don’t get is why? Why this hill? What is so important about this issue that it rises to the top of the list
exactly
#146
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
medical privacy is sacrosanct

no politician should ever interfere with personal medical decisions
You can believe that and also think the behavior is still worthy of criticism. I’ve yet to see a defense of giving young kids the drugs used to castrate sex offenders or performing genital mutilation or mastectomies on 15 year olds 

There are people who have a mental illness that causes them to want a healthy limb or hand removed. Is it ethical for doctors to go along with this? should such a practice by legal? Am I really not allowed to criticize due to medical privacy? 

#147
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@thett3
There are people who have a mental illness that causes them to want a healthy limb or hand removed. Is it ethical for doctors to go along with this? should such a practice by legal?
self-ownership is the foundation upon which all "rights" are set
#148
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Double_R
The issue I have is that people like yourself decry the left for approaching this the wrong way while ignoring the fact that at least they’re trying to fix it. What are the republicans doing about it? Not a damn thing. They talk about jobs and opportunity, but then pass trillions in tax cuts that go almost entirely to the top 1%. Almost every policy you mentioned is far more likely to be proposed by the democrats than republicans.
Some of them would be. But I think changing the education system to a German model would be adamantly opposed by the left, which broadly believes everyone should go to college. I know that trying to decentralize the economy away from the major metros would DEFINITELY be opposed by the left since those areas are where they get their wealth and power. Bringing back manufacturing jobs would be opposed in practice by the left due to the inevitable pollution that comes with them and all of the red tape (try starting a business in California.) The left would fight tooth and nail against any school voucher system. 

I agree though that the GOP is unlikely to do much of anything positive. I want to change that but it’s a lesser of two evils situation for me 

What I still don’t get is why? Why this hill? What is so important about this issue that it rises to the top of the list when it comes to a conversation about where we differ?
It’s a microcosm of the broader issue I have with leftist philosophy, and it’s an area where I think the left is so painfully, blindingly, disgustingly wrong that it’s very useful to try and make a point. It doesn’t motivate my actual behavior much at all but its part of what made me totally convinced that at least something is wrong with the tenants of leftist ideology if it led to that point 

When you are in a position where you don’t need to deal with the full reality of a situation, it’s easy to default to how you’d like for things to be or think they should be. Our institutions are not in such a position. The people at the top of our society are the ones dealing with these realities so they know better.
I’ve seen conservatives make this exact same argument for why engineers lean conservative. “You see, in engineering there are personal and professional consequences for being wrong, unlike academics” Obviously I disagree but that’s okay 

I think college educated voters are moving dem and working class voters GOP largely bc politics are realigning along a nationalist vs globalist dynamic and college educated people in major metro areas pretty much do have their interests aligned with globalism. It’s very interesting to me that if you dig into it republicans clean up with high income low education voters and democrats clean up with low income high education voters, while everyone else is more in the middle 
#149
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,051
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
@3RU7AL
Imagine if your 5 year old child insisted she was a thermometer and wanted to take a teaspoon of mercury every day.

Would you die on the "my body my choice" hill?


#150
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,051
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
The people at the top of our society are the ones dealing with these realities so they know better.
This is where I disagree with you. People at the top in government are usually specialists. When they branch out to other areas as they almost always do in positions of power, they are more often wrong for the sole reason they insist that they "know better" 

Their position of power gives them the ability to shut off the vital feedback that helps correct ourselves. In the private sector, bankruptcy is that feedback. In the public sector, losing an election is the feedback. The big problem is that the mistakes of the public sector elite take years and decades to correct whereas bankruptcy is near immediate. 

If you take the world's smartest jeopardy player and put them in a room of 1000 average people, the collective knowledge is far greater than that one man.

But society is moving away from that democratic model, entrusting decisions to select appointed "experts" instead of the general people. For example: The Congress doesn't set Covid restrictions, an "expert" does. You see how disastrous a mistake happens when we trust authoritarians over the collective will of the people. 

But it's even worse than that. Most people in Congress don't even read the bills they vote for anymore and just take the advice of appointed experts. So we really have no "democracy" in practice anymore. Just a cabal of elites that insist they know better because there are none to challenge them.