Pelosi landed at Taiwan

Author: Intelligence_06

Posts

Total: 54
#31
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Intelligence_06
【美国白宫重申不支持“台独”-哔哩哔哩】 https://b23.tv/NVwjQNi

Please don’t dismiss this just because it is a Chinese -uploaded clip, it is American footage.
Why not post from YouTube to an English language website?  Or better yet, the original feed posted by the White House?

Oh wait.....in China you can't have those things.

What Pelosi is doing is starting an unauthorized visit. Don’t forget that. 
Per our Constitution, Pelosi has her own authority.  Congress,  directly representing the American people, does not run day to day foreign relationships but is constitutionally charged with overseeing foreign relations and has the final word on all treaties and declarations of war.  As Speaker of the House, Pelosi has some authority over the National Security Council but the National Security Council has no authority over Pelosi that she needs to respect.
#32
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
Why not post from YouTube to an English language website?  Or better yet, the original feed posted by the White House?

Oh wait.....in China you can't have those things.
You mean in America we cant have those things. At least not on Youtube.

#33
BearMan
BearMan's avatar
Debates: 16
Posts: 1,067
3
4
11
BearMan's avatar
BearMan
3
4
11
-->
@Intelligence_06
Uhh... not even Taiwan openly state this view. Only 1 party agrees with this, which is just discount democrats basically. The reason the Taiwanese people "Disagree" is because of education: They distill separatist messages(in an unregulated or lightly-regulated market of textbooks). In reality, nobody "should" hold this view.
I call massive BS. Nobody is distilling separatist messages into Taiwanese education or censoring any info regarding the sovereignty of Taiwan, unlike some other nations.

The party that agrees with the claim that Taiwan is independent is the DPP. I'd say calling it the "discount democrats" is a bit cheap. And saying that only one party agrees with the view is utter BS, at least five political parties agree with Taiwanese statehood. 

The main party that does not agree with this decision is the KMT, which supports the reunification of Taiwan and mainland China under the ROC, not the PRC. Which is ironically even worse than just an independent Taiwan, in the PRC's eyes. 

People's Liberation Army is MUCH more well-equipped than military trained in Taiwan. Some experts expected such potential attack to fall in days. If the US is getting into this, this will turn into a much larger warfare(with the US more well-equipped) and could possibly lead to WW3. What Pelosi is doing is escalation.
While the PLA is well-equipped, it is not well-equipped for a large-scale amphibious invasion. Amphibious attacks are notoriously hard to pull off, combined with the fact that Taiwan's geography is insanely difficult to fight against. Taiwan isn't impregnable, but saying that the PRC can EASILY take on Taiwan is a massive overstatement.

The US has already got itself into this, they vow to protect Taiwan if the PRC would ever invade it. 


But what is Chinese expansion in the past few years? Just a few islands in the ocean and a few undisputed areas with India or something. China DEFINITELY would not want to act first in a war. They haven't for like almost a century.
Look at it wisely, the PRC is (literally always) threatening an invasion and is regularly flying aircraft (illegally) into Taiwanese air space, and pretends the US is going for an escalation? Jeez dude. 



#34
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
The current leading party in Taiwan heavily leans into the "Taiwan independence" ideology. Though many younger Taiwanese share similar feelings to wanting other countries to respect their integrity and value their unique historical existence and culture diversity. NO ONE in Taiwan wants a full out war to break out. Taiwan knows they are just a mere chess piece in the global tug of war for power and control of trade. So the leading party heavily befriends the US in an attempt to feel more secure against China. What many people don't recognize is by doing so, they're constantly building the pressure for conflict on China. Many young people in Taiwan, value their freedom and diversity. The freedom of speech, the freedom to love who you wanna love, the freedom to have access to outside information, the freedom to not have to constantly live in fear of being "disappeared" because of their ideologies. However, it is increasingly evident that the threat of an all out war is increasing with every minute passing, making all those other things meaningless. The political nuance between Taiwan and China is extremely complicated; people in Taiwan have been racking their brains to come up with better solutions to resolve it. Taiwan has long been trying to maintain balance on the thin rope of "independence"/"compliance". And with the recent development of technology (their semi conductor industry) and the political expression of favoring the US. That rope is becoming incredibly thin...

 This conflict affects way more than just Taiwan, it's a reference for how future modern conflicts could play out. And with nuclear weapons involved, if shit hit the fan, it's gonna be REAL BAD..... I just wish more people could be informed about this, and if and when the shit hit the fan, at least we all knew it was coming...

#35
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
Why not post from YouTube to an English language website?  Or better yet, the original feed posted by the White House?

Oh wait.....in China you can't have those things.
You mean in America we cant have those things. At least not on Youtube.

  • Cowards who have me blocked ought not to exploit the rhetorical advantage of counterargument without reply. 
  • Obviously, such petty conduct belies any claim to credibility on the subject of censorship.

#36
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
-->
@Greyparrot
The only flavor of Democracy the US will allow in Taiwan is one where Chinese sympathizers are not allowed to vote. "Land of the free, home of the brave" my ass.
Taiwan holds its own elections. We have minimal ability to influence much less interfere with these.
Support for reunification, either immediately or in the hypothetical future when political conditions change, is currently below 12%. This strongly suggests that no voter suppression is necessary to preserve the status quo on the island; in fact, said suppression would only raise support for the mainland by undermining faith in democracy as an idea. Neither Biden nor Tsai ing-Wen has anything to gain from this.


#37
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
-->
@RationalMadman
That's cute. It's all sovereign like Texas wanted to be when Abe blackmailed the Confederate States to stay part of the US.
You mean the civil war from 160 years ago that freed millions of black slaves? That civil war? You really think President Lincoln should've sat that one out?

All Sovereign really means is neither a good or a bad thing,
Sovereignty is a good thing.

If nobody respected sovereignty, countries would be invading each other left and right. Tens of millions of people would die.

But furthermore, if all countries on earth were already unified, then that would just be terrible. Governments degenerate, either into oppression or incompetency, and if a degenerate government rules everybody then the entire world will suck.
Sovereignty means there are other countries around. If your society is developing and moving in the right direction, then under a Westphalian framework they won't interfere with that by attacking you. But if your society is going backwards, then those other countries will set you back on track by toppling the bad government responsible for this and installing a better government in its place. Or, at the very least, you as an individual can move abroad to get away from tyranny and dysfunction.

what it means is in the past some bullies out bullied the other bullies and claimed it as their land.
Sure. But no country today will give up the land it's had for a century or several centuries. The best that can be managed is to not allow further bullying. Otherwise, progress can never be realized for the human race.

#38
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Swagnarok
A majority of Californians want independence from the Union. What would your feelings be if China supported California secession with the backing of the Chinese military?
#39
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
-->
@Greyparrot
If California, a member of the union, suddenly made an attempt to secede today, then yeah that'd be a serious problem. There can be no toleration for someone trying to run off with our land.

But if, in some alternate universe, California had already won independence before my parents were born, then whatever. I wouldn't support bombing 40 million people who did nothing to me to restore a map from 75 years ago. And I would be a murderer if I did.
#40
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Swagnarok
There's ample reason to be concerned about what policy America takes regarding Taiwan so that it is not used against America.

China needs only to decide to blockade the island until it surrenders if America pushes China hard enough. We don't have the resources for a war with China, we barely had enough for the Japan war.
#41
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Swagnarok
If bullying for land were immoral, barely any sovereign land would exist.
#42
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Swagnarok
You talk progress but all i read is stasis and even regression if the world wishes to progress to a one world nation.
#43
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Swagnarok
Just so we are clear, I am anti Abe yes. He was a racist sack of shit who could not care less about blacks, he just wanted to blackmail the Confederate states to surrender to America. Blacks were barely anything more than they used to be when he 'freed' them, they could nit even vote let alone marry or socialise with the others. Abe is the reason Ghetto inequality even began, later Reagan re-ignited the gap and Ghetto division by his methods during his drug clampdown.

Republicans and GOP never cared fir black equality. Research Lincoln before trying to pull my heartstrings. Do you go and free blacj slaves in Africa right now? There are domestic slaves in the western world that are too scared to free themselves and call coos and fear they cannot prove anything, should we invade all homes just in case of domestic abuse?

Is US freeing North Korean slaves? Ia US feeeing Saudi (which is the Countr that the 9/11 suicide attackers both originate from)?

There is no real loving invasion consistency from US, it is pick and choose fiesta.
#44
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,062
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
I’d like to visit Chinese Taipei one day
#45
BearMan
BearMan's avatar
Debates: 16
Posts: 1,067
3
4
11
BearMan's avatar
BearMan
3
4
11
-->
@Greyparrot
The current leading party in Taiwan heavily leans into the "Taiwan independence" ideology. Though many younger Taiwanese share similar feelings to wanting other countries to respect their integrity and value their unique historical existence and culture diversity. NO ONE in Taiwan wants a full out war to break out. Taiwan knows they are just a mere chess piece in the global tug of war for power and control of trade. So the leading party heavily befriends the US in an attempt to feel more secure against China. What many people don't recognize is by doing so, they're constantly building the pressure for conflict on China. Many young people in Taiwan, value their freedom and diversity. The freedom of speech, the freedom to love who you wanna love, the freedom to have access to outside information, the freedom to not have to constantly live in fear of being "disappeared" because of their ideologies. However, it is increasingly evident that the threat of an all out war is increasing with every minute passing, making all those other things meaningless. The political nuance between Taiwan and China is extremely complicated; people in Taiwan have been racking their brains to come up with better solutions to resolve it. Taiwan has long been trying to maintain balance on the thin rope of "independence"/"compliance". And with the recent development of technology (their semi conductor industry) and the political expression of favoring the US. That rope is becoming incredibly thin...

 This conflict affects way more than just Taiwan, it's a reference for how future modern conflicts could play out. And with nuclear weapons involved, if shit hit the fan, it's gonna be REAL BAD..... I just wish more people could be informed about this, and if and when the shit hit the fan, at least we all knew it was coming...
based

#46
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,346
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Greyparrot
The Berlin Airlift succeeded.

And it's in our long term interests if other nations 'do strengthen, that the international community at large believe in peace,
Seeing on how we didn't go for conquest victory after WW2.
Maybe other nations 'will be able to match us, though I'm of the opinion that day has not yet come.
Not that I'm saying this, that we ought go to war.
#47
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Lemming
Make no mistake. China isn't limited to 1949 anti-air  armaments. And Taiwan is extremely far from western airports. As we learned from the babyfood and other shortages, logistics and supply chains matter. Alot.

You won't be able to relive the glory of the past in this war.
#48
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,346
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Greyparrot
I don't recall reading of the USSR shooting down planes during the Berlin Airlift.

Other parts of the world are near Taiwan.
Depends how America and allies approach situation.

May past glories be remembered, and new glory, created.
Ideally glory in peace, but even should a war come, may it be that we are worthy enough to overcome.
#49
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Lemming
Other parts of the world are near Taiwan.
Out of curiosity, what's your best guess as to how close the nearest US military base is to Taiwan?
#50
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,346
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Greyparrot
I've not even a guess, but America's navy, it's bases and allies cross the globe.
#51
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Lemming
#52
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
Fuck China.
#53
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
Too bad if China is upset about the visit to Taiwan. We're upset about a lot of things China does. This visit is something Trump fans should be celebrating (god forbid) and Pelosi has a long history of criticizing China which they've never acknowledged. It shouldn't be a partisan thing to be wary of China when they've admitted many times that their long-term goal is to obliterate our influence on the world stage and be the most powerful nation on Earth. They're certainly on their way. 

Maybe rocking the boat with China wouldn't be the worst thing. It wouldn't lead to physical war; at least not anytime soon. It'd be a trade and commerce war which is inevitable anyway. We're poised to suffer badly once China decides they're strong enough, so  it's best we start rectifying some stuff and address a lot of the supply chain issues, intellectual property theft, tech abuses, labor concerns, and lots of other problems sooner rather than later. It couldn't hurt to give a little pushback to Beijing. 

#54
Ehyeh
Ehyeh's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 318
3
4
9
Ehyeh's avatar
Ehyeh
3
4
9
America may not be the best nation on the planet, yet I'd say it's the greatest. I say this as a European. Without America, I couldn't imagine what the Soviets would have tried to do after the defeat of the Nazis. They're not perfect, they've made many mistakes, but without them it would be a hell of a lot worse. I'm sure glad it's America which is the strongest nation on the planet with the most control and not the Russians, Chinese, or Japanese. We live in the best possible outcome of WWII.