Contradictions in religious textbooks

Author: TheUnderdog

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#1
TheUnderdog
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I know practically nothing about holy books, but we got a new Muslim guy (forgot his name).  Maybe he can sort some of these out.


These are the religions that I know that have the highest stakes (meaning they each claim you must believe in them in order to avoid hell).  The rest I think base whether or not you go to hell solely on your actions while on earth (so I don't have to believe in them to go to heaven).  I might be wrong here, but I'm only guessing.
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#2
TheUnderdog
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@rayhan16
You were the muslim guy I forgot about.  My bad.  There will be enough christains here to address the contradictions in the bible.
#3
rayhan16
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@TheUnderdog
I will sort every one of these supposed contradictions out don't worry 
#4
n8nrgim
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most of the time when there's a long list of contradictions, most of the supposed contradictions are really stretched to come to that conclusion. it's best when making the argument, to pick the strongest ones you think are contradictions, and then defend the idea that they are in fact contradictions. most of the time, the people doing that, are grasping at straws. now, i am a christian that believes there are contradictions in the bible... but i also think there are no smoking guns where there is no doubt about whether the example should in fact be considered a contradiction. 

but anyways, yeah. you should find a few examples and argue the points. 
#5
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@TheUnderdog
Is it OK if I reply to all the supposed contradictions tomorrow? It's 3am in the UK for me so I need to sleep
#6
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It's the slavery which is, in my opinion, the most indefensible in the bible. 
#7
zedvictor4
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@TheUnderdog
Religious textbooks were/are compilations of human naivety.

It is therefore no wonder that there are apparent contradictions to be found within.


And human data manipulation/thought processing is the result of previous influences.

And therefore unlikely to be logically pure.


And it's highly likely that Mr Rayhan16 will be able to suitably reinterpret archaic illogic.

People have been doing it for centuries.

But nonetheless they have never been able to prove the past or present existence of a GOD.


Same old, same old.



#8
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@TheUnderdog

I know practically nothing about holy books,

Then why are you doing a topic on it.
#9
rayhan16
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@TheUnderdog
So I will be responding to these so called 'contradictions'. 

1. What was man created from. 
The first man (Adam) was created from clay or mud (water and dust)
Adams offsprings were created from a clot (drop of fluid). Man was nothing before

2. Compulsion in religion
There is no compulsion in religion. Muslims are not allowed to fight unless the enemy fights first. Self defence. Those who know the truth and rejected the truth will get a punishment in hell. However, these disbelievers do not believe this. This is not compulsion btw. 

3. Who was the first Muslim
Adam was the first Muslim as he submitted his will to the creator. The Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was the first Muslim practising Islam to how it is now. 

4. Is Shirk Forgivable?
Shirk is the worship of another entity to Allah. This is an unforgiveable sin if you do not repent. If a Muslim repents sincerely, Allah will forgive this sin In Sha Allah. However if you do not repent, then Allah will not forgive this sin and it is hellfire for that person. 

5. Decree of Allah
Allah's words cannot be changed and it is talking about the Quran. The other books have been changed. However the Quran has not, still after 1400 years. 

6. Pharaoh killed by drowning?
Pharaoh died by drowning however his body was saved

7. Is wine good?
Wine is haram in this life. However in the next life, wine will not be haram. 

Looks like that is all the contradictions from that site. 

Happy to help!



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#10
TheUnderdog
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@rayhan16
No worries; take your time.  There are times when I don’t respond for over a week, so take your time.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Because I’m like Joe Rogan.  I have opinions, but I try and hear everybody out.
#12
rayhan16
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@TheUnderdog
I have answered all the contradictions
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#13
TheUnderdog
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@rayhan16
I got work in 7 minutes, so I’ll address them later.
#14
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@rayhan16
Zed's interpretation of things. In no particular order


Allah never said anything though.

His words were all made up by men.


Allah, GOD, GOD, Allah....The same basic naive hypothesis...Different club though.

Supposedly started by a man called Abraham, who had a bit of a turn up a mountain. (Altitude sickness).

Nonetheless, GOD principle sound....But just not floaty about blokes that exist in magical fantasy lands.


The Adam Tale  was also made up by men, and in fairness could be said to be  based upon a sort of naive interpretation of the creation and evolution of matter.

Though whether this was the intention is impossible to say.

Drop of fluid...Yep, has obvious connotations....A naive understanding/interpretation of sexual reproduction maybe.


And wine is the fermented juice of grapes, whereby sugars are turned to alcohol.

And I know  Muslims that consume alcohol....So not so forbidden.


The first Muslim was the first man to come up with the word Muslim.

The same applies to every other invented religion and it's invented title.


Pharaoh.....Which Pharaoh.

Pharaohic religion pre-dates Abrahamic stuff....So earlier naive hypotheses also created by men.

And people often drown and their bodies are often recovered.


2. There are so many contradictions in your non-contradictory appraisal of point 2....It's bordering on the comedic.


You and Tradesecret should have a religious interpretation battle. 


And if you teach your kids non-sense, they will grow up thinking that non-sense is fact.

Sometimes referred to as formative conditioning.

And as such religion is used as a method of social control.
 

And no one has ever met a GOD.

Either before or after Abraham had his hallucination.


Muhammed, Jesus, Adolph Hitler to name but three charismatic men who sought to control the lives of others....Same old, same old Vladimir.


 
#15
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@zedvictor4
This is the signs of an ignorant man. Let me tell you something which you may not even know. 

If you look at the Quran, read it from start to finish, and you then think it is the word of man, you are deluded. The Quran can only be made by 3 entities. Humans, the devil, God. Humans are prone to error, they have proved it by not preserving the Bible and the Torah, however the Quran has not changed nor any contradictions in it either. The devil cannot also write the Quran. The reason being is the Quran states so many times, to seek refuge from the devil, to worship the 1 God and follow the Prophets message. The only conclusion is God, unless you want to tell me why not. 

Secondly, the existence of God. The universe cannot be created any anything other than God. The universe has a beginning, which means it is dependant. A dependant entity cannot make another dependant entity. Only an independent entity can create a dependant entity. For example, the universe relies on time and space and without these it would not exist. As the universe is dependant, the multiverse is incorrect because there cannot be an infinite dependant universes, this is illogical. Now nothing cannot produce something. Something has to create the universe which is independent, self sufficient, no beginning, no end. Plus the Quran has to be written by God, as I have already proved. 

Thirdly, you said you know Muslims that drink alcohol. And then proceeded to say, that means alcohol is not forbidden? If I commit a murder and I am Muslim, then does that mean Islam promotes murdering people. Or if I blow up an entire nation for nothing, no reason, just because I want to, does this mean Islam advocates it? The Muslims that you know who drink alcohol are Muslims who are sinning. Alcohol is forbidden in Islam, and people are using free will to decide whether or not to consume it. Illogical fallacy. 

Fourthly, the Pharaoh argument, I am not even going to speak about this. During the time of Moses, there were Pharaoh's. Abraham was not the first man was he? It was Adam. And we believe that Adam is a Muslim. 

Fifthly, Please tell me 1 contradiction in the Quran and I will tell you why it is not a contradiction
#16
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@rayhan16
The Quran is.

As the Christian  Bible is.

And books are written by men.


You have been taught/conditioned to think in a particular way, just as I have.

And neither of us has any idea why the Universe exists.


Nonetheless, the Universe is far greater and older than a collection of 2000 year old Middle Eastern Folk Tales.
#17
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@zedvictor4
Please tell me how the Quran was written by men. Humans are prone to error, and the Quran would have contradictions in it if it was. Yet it has the opposite. There are miracles and prophecies in it. But those who are 'deaf dumb and blind' do not want to listen
#18
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@rayhan16
There are usually miracles and prophecies in such mythology. Islam is not unique in this respect.

And what else has developed the practice of composing  symbolic narratives, that contain such concepts.

Before you can actually attribute such abilities to a supernatural character, you must firstly prove the existence of the supernatural character.

And if you open you mind to the reality of creation and material development, you would understand that deistic religions occurred billions of years after the event, relative to the comparatively recent development of human intellect.

But those who are 'deaf dumb and blind' do not want to listen.
A typically silly piece of emotive but insulting rhetoric.

Dumb and blind people are very keen to listen...As deaf  and dumb people are very keen to see....As blind and deaf people are very keen to communicate.

Perhaps it is you that has  been deafened, dumbed and blinded by the oppression of enforced ideology....So much so that you refuse to even look at the bigger picture, lest you incur the wrath of your ideological oppressor. 


11 days later

#19
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@zedvictor4
There are usually miracles and prophecies in such mythology.
Yes there are. However the ones in the Quran exceed tens, and if we look at the Hadith, there are hundreds. Nearly every one of these miracles and prophecies have come true. BTW, the Quran is not even a scientific book. It is not a book of science or anything. It is a guidance book. 

 you must firstly prove the existence of the supernatural character.
Good challenge. 

First of all, the universe could not come from nothing, as nothing does not exist. Nothing cannot make something. So the universe had to have been created by something. Now the reason why the universe could not always have existed is because of one word. Dependency. This is the universe relying on time and space. If the universe is dependant on time and space, something must have created it, as if it relies on time, there was a beginning. And as we know, no such thing as nothing, so the something that created it, must always exist. The something that created the universe must be independent, must be self sufficient and must be necessary and also must have a will. 

There is not a single theory other than God that applies to these conditions. Please give your best shot. How was the universe created? Big bang does not explain it as the matter that exploded must be questioned. How was that there? Who created it? The multiverse theory is flawed as a series of dependant universes must logically be created. So again, give it your best shot. 

A typically silly piece of emotive but insulting rhetoric.
Quote of the Quran. 


#20
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@rayhan16
BTW, the Quran is not even a scientific book. It is not a book of science or anything. It is a guidance book
Shhhhhhhhh. Atheists don't believe that about religious texts. They view them as science and history books. That's why they're always arguing about them.  If they just viewed them as guidance on how to worship a particular God they wouldn't have anything to talk about. Or hate people for.
#21
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@Polytheist-Witch
Shhhhhhhhh. Atheists don't believe that about religious texts. They view them as science and history books. That's why they're always arguing about them.  If they just viewed them as guidance on how to worship a particular God they wouldn't have anything to talk about. Or hate people for.
Well obviously yes. But again, as atheists love to say 'why are there contradictions in the Quran' we have to point out that there are none. The Quran contains miracles and prophecies yet is not even a book of science. That is amazing
#22
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@rayhan16
How many miracles is irrelevant.

One or a million, just depends upon the of the inventiveness of the author.

The biggest one being an infinitely existent creator, who blatantly contradicts the something from nothing principle that you go on to expound.

Funny how a universe  couldn't, and in the next breath a GOD could.

This is the same old flawed contradictory deistic argument.


As I always say.

GOD principle sound.

But not floaty about blokes.

Especially blokes of very recent Middle Eastern folk tales.


Pseudo hypothetical magical blokes are created by human blokes with a vivid imagination.


7 days later

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#23
TheUnderdog
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@rayhan16
1. What was man created from. 
The first man (Adam) was created from clay or mud (water and dust)
Adams offsprings were created from a clot (drop of fluid). Man was nothing before
You didn’t address 19:67, 52:35, of 96:2.

2. Compulsion in religion
There is no compulsion in religion. Muslims are not allowed to fight unless the enemy fights first. Self defence. Those who know the truth and rejected the truth will get a punishment in hell. However, these disbelievers do not believe this. This is not compulsion btw.
9:5 calls for killing pagans unless they convert to Islam and doesn’t say anything about it being only for self defense.

3. Who was the first Muslim
Adam was the first Muslim as he submitted his will to the creator. The Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was the first Muslim practising Islam to how it is now.
You didn’t address 7:143


4. Is Shirk Forgivable?
Shirk is the worship of another entity to Allah. This is an unforgiveable sin if you do not repent. If a Muslim repents sincerely, Allah will forgive this sin In Sha Allah. However if you do not repent, then Allah will not forgive this sin and it is hellfire for that person.
Fair enough, but an eternity in hellfire for this is way too cruel.  I don’t know how people can defend this.

The rest I’m not too sure about.
#24
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@TheUnderdog
19:67- I clearly said man was nothing before
52:35- This is clearly referring to those thinking they were created by nothing etc. Those that do not believe in God
96:2- Clearly this is the 'leech like substance' that is scientifically accurate. 

9:5 is a war verse. 

7:143 not too sure what you are referring to here. Moses said he was the first believer amongst his own people.  He never said he was the first believer 'ever'

And who are you to decide the punishment is too cruel? You don't even believe. This is you judging by your own morals etc. God knows best
#25
Deb-8-a-bull
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Blood type A
+
Blood type B
+
Blood type AB
+
Blood type O

=  4 types of blood. 

INTO. 

1 Adam
+
1 Eve


=  2 peoples 


4 blood types. 
2 people.  

Hang on a sec.
That doesn't add up right?

It would be interesting knowing what  blood type adam was. 
And why God choose the type he did for him and her. 


#26
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@Deb-8-a-bull
It would be interesting knowing what  blood type adam was. 
And why God choose the type he did for him and her. 


If you are prone to believe that the Adam/a was created from nothing but the dirt of the earth then this would make it scientific.  But the most interesting part here for me Deb is the creation of Eve. It sounds all  very much like cloning if superimposed with what we know about cloning today.

This is my version of the King James version
Genesis 2:21-22



21 And the Lord of science, medicine and surgical procedure anesthetised the man and caused a deep sleep to fall upon him. While the man was asleep the Lord of medicine and surgical procedure made an incision in the side of the flesh of the man  and proceeded to  surgically remove one of his ribs, then stitched up the wound of the flesh that he had made.
22 And then from the rib which the Lord of  science, medicine and surgical procedure had surgically removed from the man, he proceeded to create a woman.



All very scientific don't you think Deb? But then why go to all the bother of a surgical procedure when there was  197 000 000 square miles of dirt left to simply create another being from?

#27
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@Stephen
It is not very ummm,   " God like "  having to make shlt like that.
A mere 2nd year wizard should be able to do a human much more efficient then that. 
Even a stage 3 reiki attuned witch could. 
Its almost like he works in mysterious ways

This "cloning / growing " of the humans happened late in the afternoon  on ( day 5 )  of the ( 6 day )  building of the " EVERYTHING 
Its like proof of evolution In a day.   
Well proof of Microevolution. 

Id like to now take 8 seconds of deep thought into god making    180,000 different species of caterpillars.  
Do ya reckon he knew what they would turn into? 

Brining us too.
( God created the universe in 6 days and rested on the seventh  ( sabbath  )  ) 
Sooooooo
What is this umm " 6 day "  thing the bible talks about ?   

 It almost  sounds like god started making the universe on a Monday and finished Saturday   ( aka )  6 days.  
One day being like 24 hours.  
It sounds completely self explanatory and just when you can start to grasp that " FACT "  you realize that Adam died when he was like what?   
930 years old.    
Thus causing ones brain to explode and make a funny noise.

With figures like these
When God puts the universe at no more the 10,000 years old .  (  6000 to be more precise  )  he is spot on. 
Becauseeeeeeeeee. ... 6000 years old back then means 14 . 5  Billion years old. 
Or something like that. 

The christians aint the most specific when it comes dates /  times and well numbers in general.  

Specific 
Ha.
Spacific.   
Pacific .

Look i don't know what i am trying to get at now. 

Did god build the universe in six days ?
Six days being / meaning ,
6  times  24 hours. ?




 



#28
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Gosh, they are having religious textbooks? Even if we are teaching religion, I do not think anything beyond collections of original text would be suitable.

Upon not reading previous posts, I infer that there are 2 categories of contradictions:
  • 1. Directly introduced by the textbook outside of the original text whether it is induced or anything. Such things should be reformatted or outright removed.
  • 2. Directly introduced by original text. These are reasons why teaching religion in schools is not a good idea to begin with.

#29
Deb-8-a-bull
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@Intelligence_06
What about like.  The Freaky bible verses ? 
Like the ( up there baldy ) verse.  
 A  2 kings verse.    This verse does not contradict,  it just .
Well it just is straight out odd. 

These blokes.
The Matty, mark,  paul  and the rest of the gang,  
You have to think they were sometimes taking  dictations not having a clue what ummmmm " they were writing. 
Possessed if you will. 
Some of it must have been hard to hand in to the , lets say, the bloke who decided what went in it. 

Picture them going over what they for some reason felt compelled to write down. 
I mean what they had to write down.
I mean what they were willed inspired  to write down 
They'd be all like .
WTF. 

Do you reckon  matt mark and co felt positively confident,  that what they wrote down was word for word what the god thing wanted them to write down. 

100% conference , word for word. 

Imagine God picking / choosing  you to be one of the writer downers of the freaky sounding sentences.  
 Like Back in the day. 


Ok one more thing to imagine.
Picture  god asking Cecile to write shit down for him and Cecile replying with.   
Sorry god i can not do the reading writing thing you speak of. 
God would just move on to the next person not even responding to Cecile's comment. 

Ok one more.

Picture god then asking Derrick to write some shlt down for him.   
And  Derrick replys with ' I am so sorry god but i can not right or reed. 
And god simply leaving it at that. 

Now picture god getting to Matthew.
And he goes .
He goes. 
Hey Matthew .
Matthew says yes god .
God goes. 
Write this down for me. 
Matthew replys with. 
Ahhhhh , sorry god . I cant read or write.       (   It was a different Matthew.) 
God swears real loud and moves on to the next human. 
MALE HUMAN.  A dozen or so guys later.
God comes across his first writing reader.  
Unfortunately his  name is Keith. 
Keith then goes on to write down 4 peter verses,  one matthew verse and a couple of Lukes.  

Sooooooo.
Keith writing  4 peters a matf and a luke is somewhat of a 
Con tra dick shun.

#30
Deb-8-a-bull
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Arrrrrrr scripture.   
Ya wouldn't have a god speak anything but. 
Abraham got given some funny writings from a god thing.   as did L Ron , and alllllllllll the ones in between 
Very well played. 
Very well played indeed. 

Its safe to say. 
A True and Important " main "  god,  gets a bunch guys,  to write shlt down for him. 
Full fuking stop.
Its a fact. 

I dont  even bother talknig about the 2nd rate , non do a book gods.  I know nothing about em . 

God wouldn't NOT do a book now would he. ? 
No. 
Of course a mighty powerful being does a little  book book.  

Yet you never hear the christians thanking there lucky stars that there god did a book for them. 
If i was a Christian i would be still blown away by this fact.
Id use the bible as 100% proof that a god thing really does exist.   ( not out loud but. )