Why are so many resilient to fact-based truth regarding black criminality?

Author: TWS1405
Crime
Racism
black
white
Violence

Posts

Total: 427
#91
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@TWS1405
Ah, but I am no layman; and the only thing I am fixated on is the truth. 
Aren’t we all.

By imposing upon them the same they would impose upon law enforcement and the white population: transparency, personal responsibility and accountability. And that first begins by getting them to take the first step in finding solutions that work for them, and that first step is by admitting that there is a problem. 
You don’t think black communities with high crime rates don’t know what’s happening? If so, seems to me you have many blind spots.
#92
Novice_II
Novice_II's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 174
2
6
6
Novice_II's avatar
Novice_II
2
6
6
  • Now the debate has been created, and thus, I ask the general non-conservative side of this debate who have expressed claims contrary to this position to accept this proposition. In general, I am aware that many people have strong disagreement for my case and my position on this topic so I am expectant that someone is willing to step up to the plate as they should be.  

#93
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@Novice_II
For one, he is quite correct about that.
Secondly, I want to inquire about my debate proposal. Do you accept? 

Who is correct about what? 

My concern with the debate is that we're going to be talking past each other in a way that's not constructive. I'd essentially be arguing that current racial disparities exist in large part as the result of past racism. I wouldn't be arguing that racism today is the cause. If you're down with that I guess we can move forward. 

#94
Novice_II
Novice_II's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 174
2
6
6
Novice_II's avatar
Novice_II
2
6
6
-->
@Danielle
I am not opposed to you making that argument seeing as I have already created the debate (THBT the majority of current policing racial disparities in the United States are a result of factors or variables outside of racism) with respect to the thread. 
#95
Novice_II
Novice_II's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 174
2
6
6
Novice_II's avatar
Novice_II
2
6
6
-->
@SkepticalOne
In addition, you can also accept the debate depending on whether or not Danielle chooses to.
#96
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Danielle
And I'm curious what "extreme" affirmative action benefits you think they are privy to. I'm more of a merit-based kinda person myself, but there's no way that AA has been more problematic than general nepotism. 
I bring it up because I think it cuts into the common narrative that black people are oppressed. 

Affirmative action benefits are extremely powerful, although it is true that many people aren't able to take effectively take advantage of them. The bounce an applicant to a college gets for being black is significantly higher than what someone gets for being a legacy, studies have found it's 310 SAT points on the 1600 point scale. Over a lifetime, this represents a grant of hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more!) if the applicant picks the same major they otherwise would have and graduates, that is granted to tens of thousands of people per year--and denied to others--on the basis of race over the course of half a century. For example, the ROI on a degree in economics from Harvard (median SAT score of 1510) is over $1.4 million more than Boston University (median SAT score 1340.) Within major, the prestige of the university matters a lot. Then there are all sorts of programs that make government contracting much much easier if you are a minority owned business. The extent to which all this "makes up" for anything is a different question--but it can't just be dismissed! 

If you really think affirmative action benefits aren’t valuable try to imagine a bizarro world where Asian people had these affirmative action benefits instead of facing de-facto quotas at elite schools and elite institutions...they would take over almost immediately. They actually arent small benefits at all 


When you say "black culture" promotes crime, what kind of culture are you talking about: rap music that highlights living in the ghetto? What is the origin of ghettos?  How and why did poor black people all wind up congregated in the same public housing? Why did so many wind up in jail in the 80s and 90s and how did those parent or fatherless homes impact black youth? Exploring questions like these isn't giving a pass to black criminals, nor is it vilifying white people and suggesting they should pipe down and accept being victims of black crime today. It's simply taking an honest deep dive into history and sociology for a better understanding so we can address it, the same way people want to analyze white supremacists or trumpkins and see why they are the way are. Simply writing off black people as morally inferior (as these conversations always seem to do!) isn't helpful and isn't honest, that's all I'm saying. 
What actually causes crime is beyond me but we can make some educated guesses. For example, we know homicide rates spiked in 2020 not following the pandemic but following the George Floyd protests: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/what-caused-the-2020-homicide-spike A similar, but much much greater spike, occurred in the 1960s so I think there is decent reason to suspect that all else being equal things like police policy, tough or weak on crime policies, making people feel like victims, huge cultural changes etc all have some sort of impact

I wouldn't be surprised if poverty does have a casual impact on violent crime, but poor hispanic people and poor white people have significantly lower crime rates than even black people in wealthier brackets. In any income bracket propensity to crime follows a similar pattern from greatest to least of black, hispanic, white, and asian. There has to be a strong cultural element (although not rap music) because poor whites seem to harm themselves in response to the same factors that really hurt the black community. The early US was founded as a state for the English diaspora with a handful of other Northern Europeans so it's a weird counterfactual but I would agree that it's totally obvious that if for some reason Africans were brought to the country in the 1700s and immediately treated as full citizens their descendants would be better off today than todays black people. But I don't think that's an excuse for violent crime. The culture can, and should be expected to, change for the better

Also, a full and honest assessment of the causes of group differences would also HAVE to account for genetic differences in things like intelligence and impulse control caused by ~70,000 years of divergent evolution, which even most people on the right aren't interested in doing...and I understand why. It is a little dehumanizing and that kind of knowledge is practically an infohazard if used the wrong way. But it does really bother me that we are supposed to obsess over racial differences while at the same time this elephant in the room that's probably the lurking variable in most group differences is just radioactive. It's better to fight crime, poverty, discrimination, etc in as race blind terms as possible to keep the peace
#97
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Dead end life is what causes crime in almost every instance. In my country we have an ethnic group that's far more troublesome than black people I guess except for the whole shooting each other part. 90% drop out of school by age 16. Only one of this group has ever achieved a PhD and it was in ethnic studies. It's about 1% of our population. They're called Travellers. Irish Gypsies. I've never seen one work an ordinary job ever. Never behind a counter of a shop or behind a bar, nothing. I mean, really never. And the males of this group have the highest suicide rate for any subclass.

I mean, make of that what you will. I think affirmative action and free college and all that stuff is obviously the way to go. We have free college, but every Traveller is still completely unemployable. I got buddies that manage bars and things. Travellers are refused entry to every bar and restaurant in every city. Their exclusion is absolute, obvious, and readily admitted to. And we all very readily accept that. I guess there's no Traveller Lives Matter rallies. Our cops aren't shooting them down in the streets. They were never our slaves. They've made an industry of crime. The Wire and every other American crime TV show I ever watched shows me black Americans have made a similar sort of industry of crime around drugs. 
#98
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
As to a full and honest account of racial and genetic differences, the white man is the greatest bastard in all of history. No denying it. Really don't see where you're going with that. Show me what part of the white man's brain has facilitated these immense cruelties we're responsible for. 
#99
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
I mean that one really is an odd point to be so stressy about.
#100
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Here's an idea, thett. We could put all black people into concentration camps. That'd fix some sort of problem anyway. 
#101
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
We could drop a nuclear bomb on Harlem. 
#102
Novice_II
Novice_II's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 174
2
6
6
Novice_II's avatar
Novice_II
2
6
6
-->
@badger
I don't see the logical reason to troll on this forum like ebuc, it just doesn't make sense from my perspective. 
#103
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@Novice_II
And I could never imagine spending hours writing debates on nonsense or thousands of words that nobody will read only to collect wins for forfeits. Takes every sort, right. 
#104
Novice_II
Novice_II's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 174
2
6
6
Novice_II's avatar
Novice_II
2
6
6
-->
@badger
If you are suggesting you would never spend time rationalizing your positions in a debate format, trust me, I can tell. I don't see what is nonsensical about them on the face of it, nor do I see any intrinsic or overall wrong in winning a debate. Perhaps this can be more sufficiently explained. 
#105
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@badger
As to a full and honest account of racial and genetic differences, the white man is the greatest bastard in all of history. No denying it. Really don't see where you're going with that. Show me what part of the white man's brain has facilitated these immense cruelties we're responsible for. 
Nah you can only think this if European history is all you know. Man’s inhumanity to man knows no limits. The Bantu expansions, all the Chinese on Chinese civil wars, the mongol invasions, everything about the Aztecs, Native American wars etc…even in ancient ancient history people have analyzed the DNA of skeletons and it’s very common for, whoa, all of a sudden the Y chromosome of this population suddenly changes but the X stays the same. We all know what that means. Until 1800 or so (or even later) the world was under a Malthusian dynamic and the options when times got tough were expand or die. All of us, white, black, Asian, descend from  the victors of those conflicts. European people just happen to be the most recent victors in a lot of cases


#106
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@badger
What’s up with the Irish travelers anyway? Where did they come from? Are they actually gypsies or an Irish group that somehow became different
#107
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Are they actually gypsies or an Irish group that somehow became different

I feel like you already knew this and I just learned it lol. Apparently Cromwell did a number on us. 

Nah you can only think this if European history is all you know. 
I mean I know dude. We're a whole world of murderous bastards. What else are you going to find in genetics?
#108
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
All of us, white, black, Asian, descend from  the victors of those conflicts. European people just happen to be the most recent victors in a lot of cases
human evolution now probably won’t be driven by who wins military conflicts but instead by which groups successfully avoid the pitfalls or modernity and actually breed. There are entire developed countries (the furthest along being South Korea) that are already doomed, whose fates are already sealed, and whoever inherits that fertile land and developed economy won’t be the people who built it but some other group. And when you look at that things that way it isn’t looking so great for whitey! 
#109
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@thett3
human evolution now probably won’t be driven by who wins military conflicts but instead by which groups successfully avoid the pitfalls or modernity and actually breed. There are entire developed countries (the furthest along being South Korea) that are already doomed, whose fates are already sealed, and whoever inherits that fertile land and developed economy won’t be the people who built it but some other group. And when you look at that things that way it isn’t looking so great for whitey! 
That's a fun take on dead end life. What ya gonna do, thett? Your kids will be happy. 
#110
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@thett3
I bring it up because I think it cuts into the common narrative that black people are oppressed. 
Yeah but saying we can't scrutinize the plight of black America because some benefit from affirmative action is like saying we can't assess the plight of poor, rural whites because so many white people are rich and thriving. 

I think the most common narratives around race today are "black lives matter" and that racism still exists. Too many people want to pretend that because we have affirmative action or because we've had a black president that racism is no longer a problem, and that's just wrong. 

Random sidebar but I was just thinking about when I came out to a friend as gay in HS, and she assured me that she was totally cool with it by letting me know that she had kissed a black guy before. At the time I was like wow, you ARE taboo you little rebel you! It was definitely understood by all of our peers that a white girl kissing a black guy was still something "shocking" or inappropriate -- in other words something our parents would raise their eyebrows over and not be happy about. And this is in New York City. So it seems really obvious that racism still exists beneath the surface of inclusivity, and that's what I think people are speaking about today. A lot of grievances or references to white supremacy these days aren't about some sort of absolute or obvious oppression like we saw under slavery or Jim Crow. It's more about the underlying racism that still permeates society outside of plain sight, which in some ways are even worse. Someone might benefit from affirmative action insofar as it helps them get into Harvard let's say. But if that black Harvard grad still gets called a n!gger, still has presumptions made about them or people feel weird around them etc. then there is still a place to talk about racism and "oppression" in society today regardless of affirmative action. 



If you really think affirmative action benefits aren’t valuable 
I do think it's a valuable benefit and I think it may be the only reasonable form of reparations that some on the left are calling for. 

I texted my ex who is a Director of college admissions to see if she had any insight. For transparency she works at a state school in NY so it might be different at private colleges. But she said she never heard of that stat before (+310 SAT points for being black) though she "wouldn't be surprised" if it's true. She stated that GPA weighting is more common. For example, they don't admit students under a 90 average, but they will admit low income minorities with a 78 average. This year her university was given enough state funding to admit 150 low income minorities. They don't say it's for "black" students though; they say "underrepresented" students. I asked if an Asian would ever be considered underrepresented and she said yes IF they have an estimated family income under $65K. So it looks like they're not looking to help middle or upper class minorities if that makes you feel better. As far as resources for poor white kids, she said that most guidance counselors don't do a good job directing students at what they may qualify for. 

I think a lot of people dismiss the idea of affirmative action for Asians because this country doesn't have a history of oppressing them (outside of not being allowed to immigrate here). We don't have generational wealth today that can be traced back to work being done here by Asian slaves. But there certainly is a good amount of racism against Asians and I agree they would dominate if given the kind of benefits that other minorities get.  My teacher friend always feels so bad that all her Chinese students still go to voluntary summer school. Culturally they're on another level. But we can look at reasons their culture is the way it is the same way we can for low income blacks in America. 


The extent to which all this "makes up" for anything is a different question--but it can't just be dismissed! 
Right but how much of an impact does it have on scale?  I do understand your point that if the ROI on college is high, and blacks have an easier time getting into college, then theoretically they have an advantage when it comes to long-term salary. However this doesn't account for other factors that may stifle someone's career or college success. The race gap has narrowed in college enrollment but not in college graduation.


I think there is decent reason to suspect that all else being equal things like police policy, tough or weak on crime policies, making people feel like victims, huge cultural changes etc all have some sort of impact
Agree but a lot of the "tough on crime" policies failed or the blowback wasn't worth it. Conservatives love using this talking point when it comes to criticizing Joe Biden for the crime bill, but then turn around and advocate the same policies within which I think is weird.


I  would agree that it's totally obvious that if for some reason Africans were brought to the country in the 1700s and immediately treated as full citizens their descendants would be better off today than todays black people. But I don't think that's an excuse for violent crime. The culture can, and should be expected to, change for the better
I agree completely. I don't think it's an excuse so much as an explanation. But if you think legitimate genetic differences exist that predispose black people to violence, then how can they be expected to change? 


A full and honest assessment of the causes of group differences would also HAVE to account for genetic differences in things like intelligence and impulse control caused by ~70,000 years of divergent evolution, which even most people on the right aren't interested in doing...and I understand why.
Someone's read Guns, Germs and Steel 😉  I agree with this too, but I think the impact is pretty limited. Nurture just seems way more important than nature when it comes to crime. I'd be interested to look up stats on middle or upper class minorities and their propensity for crime. A black athlete who was impoverished their entire lives until age 22  wouldn't count.  
Topic's author
#111
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@SkepticalOne
People get kicked off platforms for all kinds of reason, most of which are purely unsubstantiated leftist bullshit. 
Fact or opinion?
Obvious fact. The internet and each platform is replete with case after case. 
Topic's author
#112
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Reece101
By imposing upon them the same they would impose upon law enforcement and the white population: transparency, personal responsibility and accountability. And that first begins by getting them to take the first step in finding solutions that work for them, and that first step is by admitting that there is a problem. 
You don’t think black communities with high crime rates don’t know what’s happening? If so, seems to me you have many blind spots.
Took a day off, and man did IQs drop sharply while I was away.

JFC, Reece. It is a foregone conclusion that black communities with high crime rates know exactly what is happening, but they are just too chicken sh!t to do anything about it. Your psychological projection clearly establishes that the only blind spot here is your own. 
Topic's author
#113
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Danielle
"My concern with the debate is that we're going to be talking past each other in a way that's not constructive. I'd essentially be arguing that current racial disparities exist in large part as the result of past racism. I wouldn't be arguing that racism today is the cause. If you're down with that I guess we can move forward. "

Translation: "I will not listen to fact-based data that contradicts my emotively driven subjective position on policing and racism in Amerikkka."


Topic's author
#114
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@badger
You clearly have no interest in honest emotional and intellectually intelligent debate on this site. DO NOT poison my discussions with your sophomoric banality. Please. 
Topic's author
#115
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Danielle
It is clear you are afraid of the truth. 
#116
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@TWS1405
You try to censor me for going on a "religious rant" then proceed to go on a racist one. Really must sting to be banned from all those websites, eh? 

I'll post where I want, you angry baby. Welcome to nowhere. 
Topic's author
#117
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@badger
Nothing I said was racist, you intellectual coward. 

"We could drop a nuclear bomb on Harlem."
#Hypocrite 

"religious rant"

Control F shows no reference to this other than our own comment. Hmmmm....

You've just proven that you are an #intellectualcoward 
#118
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3

That's a very short memory you got there, dummy. Angrily edit your post some more. 
Topic's author
#119
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@badger
-->@badger
Awesome #sophomoric banal retort. God. Please troll somewhere else. 

Unlike you, I am seeking a true emotional and intellectually intelligent discussion here. 
Nowhere in that linked statement of mine do I state, and I quote, as you did, "religious rant."
You lose. Try again. Clown. 

Also, you took that quote from a different forum. Red herring fallacy. Clown x2

Topic's author
#120
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Danielle
You are a real piece of work. Like I said, I bet you have fraud white boy Jeffrey Shaun King, Ben Crump, Jesse Jackson and even Al Sharpton at the top of your friends list. Racial paranoia just exudes from your comments. It is clear you are too stubborn (i.e., close-minded) to hear other fact-based points of view. Which you established when you refused to review the video that I linked to by former black officer Brandon Tatum.