There is no such thing as an Atheists.

Author: Grugore

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Grugore
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@secularmerlin
Regarding Scripture’s statements about slavery, again, simply put, we can divide the slavery regulations into those for Israelites and non-Israelites. Israelites could only be indentured servants, not lifetime servants (unless they so preferred their situation with their master that theyasked to be lifetime slaves). They were to be freed after 7 years and compensated generously for their time. They were also protected by several laws; they were not chattel. If a man took a female slave for a concubine, she had certain rights and could not simply be discarded.
Non-Israelites could be enslaved for life. However, they also had certain rights, including Sabbath rest in the household of their master. They could not be wantonly mistreated.

But we also have to ask: what would the alternative be? Israelites might be enslaved because of extreme poverty or because of being convicted of a crime. Slavery is not ideal, but it beats starving to death or being executed for a crime. Non-Israelites would be taken as slaves in armed conflict—again, most people would choose slavery to death.
In the New Testament, we must remember that Christians were a small minority. The Roman government had a way of squashing movements that openly called for slave revolts. But Christians had a way of gently subverting the order. Paul addressed slaves as people capable of choosing godly submission in the context of their slavery, but the really subversive part is that he called slave owners to treat their slaves as brothers and sisters in Christ. Really read the letter of Philemon and try to come to a conclusion other than that Paul wants Philemon to free Onesimus. In fact, church history indicates that Philemon did exactly that, and Onesimus became a leader in the early church.


I would suggest that there is a deeper basis for your rejection of Scripture, because if you accepted Scripture for what it truly is, the Word of God, you would have to deal with its depiction of Jesus, the Son of God, and His claims about our need to be saved from sin. I would urge you to look at these things a bit more closely.

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@Grugor
Maybe I reject scripture because I think slavery and indentured servitude are immoral and so any god(s) that do not forbid them (to say nothing of those that actively endorse them) are immoral god(s). In any case you asked for me to name one social ill that was not a direct result of disobeying the supposed commands of Christ (for the purposes of this discussion those commands from Christ as depicted in the bible) and whether we are discussing slavery or indentured servitude we are discussing a social ill that Jesus as depicted in the bible did not command us to abolish. Your challenge has been met.
Grugore
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@secularmerlin
How is indentured servitude a social ill? Many entered into it volunearly because they could not support themselves or their family. They agreed to a contract, we're paid well for it, and we're treated fairly. Sure beats the hell out of starving to death. Doesn't it? You really need to educate yourself on this subject. Your ignorance offends me.
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@Grugore
It is a form of him an trafficking and human trafficking is something that I consider immoral in all its forms. In any case you have yet to establish that we are not discussing outright slavery and Jesus did not specifically forbid either.
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@secularmerlin
Jesus never came right out and condemned slavery.  But slavery was a fact of life in those days. If you look at the entirety of what the Bible says about slavery, you can only come to the conclusion that Jesus did not condone it. In fact, the old testament proscribed the death penalty for kidnapping. How do you reconcile your belief in light of this?
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@Grugore
Jesus never came right out and condemned slavery
So a social ill that is not the result of breaking the supposed commands of Jesus. Thank you for conceding that point.
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@Grugore 
While one might one may kidnap and enslave someone slavery and kidnapping are different crimes.
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@secularmerlin
@Grugore

“In truth there is only one freedom – the holy freedom of Christ, whereby He freed us from sin, from evil, from the devil. It binds us to God. All other freedoms are illusory, false, that is to say, they are all, in fact, slavery.”
 St. Justin Popovich

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@Mopac
Unless you can demonstrate that Jesus was a part of reality he has no place in your definition. 

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@secularmerlin
I don't really believe you are interested in learning anything from me.

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@Mopac
How many times must I repeat that I am looking for an interlocutor not a teacher. In any case you don't seem to have a ything demonstrably real to teach.
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@secularmerlin
You need to be taught, because you are ignorant. 

I'm not interested in 23 pages of you playing stupid.
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@secularmerlin
As long as you remain ignorant, it's easy to argue about things you don't understand with conviction.



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@Mopac
You need to be humble because you never say anything new or unique. To recap I accept that some reality exists and I reject that you could possibly know anything about anything which exists outside the observable. Anything that is not a part if the observable physical universe is by definition unobservable and an unobservable thing is an unknowable thing and if a thing is unknowable then you cannot know anything about it. It is ridiculous to think that you can teach anyone anything about something that you don't know.
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@secularmerlin
I don't really believe you are interested in learning anything from me.


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@Mopac
you never say anything new or unique.
While we are repeating ourselves 

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@secularmerlin
You refute things before you understand them.

That is why I'm not interested in taking part in your solipsistic masturbation.


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@Mopac
Proof Mopac. Without it you don't have anything to refute.
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@Grugore
But slavery was a fact of life in those days.
As was a woman being chattle, but god couldn't change that because it was a fact of life.
As was the rape of prepubescent captives but god couldn't change that because it was a fact of life.
As was stoning a woman who was raped within the city boundary but god couldn't change that because it was a fact of life.
The OT prescribed the death penalty for anyone kidnapping a Jew.
For an allegedly omnipotent god he was pretty fucking useless.
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@Mopac
“In truth there is only one freedom
And that is to be a slave to god.
Of course reality puts the lie to that absurdity.

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@Mopac
Do you think you can teach what the IPSS have taught you and to what end?
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@secularmerlin
If you want anything, you'll have to believe me when I say that I need to adjust your language in order to be in line with what is actually being said. As it stands, If I describe anything to you, I might as well be speaking another language. It's a langauge issue, and when I attempt to get you to understand that, you resist any attempt by me to correct you. 


So if you do that, how am I supposed to help you understand? You fight me tooth and nail over even the most basic elementary concept... God... Even then, you can't get that right, because you say, "I believe in reality", but you can't bring yourself to say, "I believe in The Ultimate Reality", and you certainly can't admit that God exists, as this is what that means.

I don't even know if you understand anything because you resist me every step of the way when I, out of a desire to have you understand, try ro make these mysteries as lucid as possible.

So forgive me if I think it is a waste of time, because before I can even help you to understand one thing, you cut me off and argue on some tangent that distracts from what we were originally talking about.

So do you hear my gripes? I'd love to help you to understand, but it seems to me that you are very resistant and not genuinely interested in learning.

You think you know already.

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@Mopac
I don't care what language you use to refer to things that are outside the observable physical universe. You still cannot observe things beyond the observable universe so you are committing a logical fallacy any time you make any claim about them.
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@Mopac
You think you know already.

This is incorrect. I think neither of us know. You are the one making knowledge claims.
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@secularmerlin
I don't care what language you use to refer to things that are outside the observable physical universe. You still cannot observe things beyond the observable universe so you are committing a logical fallacy any time you make any claim about them.

Mopac might be but not spirituality of itself. What is "observable" is up for debate especially in the spiritual arena. Your assumption would only be true if you had not the medium or mechanism of that which transcends the physical boundaries to be observed. You of course have a physical layer, which perceives and experiences through the physical senses and material perceptions alone but you also have several layers beyond the physical and this is where the average atheist and theist part ways. It is through the layer or observation point beyond that of just the physical body which perceives the spiritual reality on many levels of conscious frequencies, it's much like tuning into a radio channel, your channel (medium) must correlate or harmonize (tune in) with the correct frequency before having any observation or experience.

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@EtrnlVw
Prove it.
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Prove it not so? it's already been proven. That's how I'm able to articulate it. The information is there, what you accept is another issue and that is out of my hands. 
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@secularmerlin
The Ultimate Reality Exists.
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@Mopac
That doesn't mean your claims about it are correct.
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@secularmerlin
I agree.

But The Ultimate Reality Exists.