Bodily Autonomy

Author: Danielle

Posts

Total: 329
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@DebateAllDaTings
"they are indistinguishable without MANDATORY "tests and scans" (for all miscarriages, including unreported miscarriages) AND some investigation to determine MOTIVE"
That makes no sense, if it is unreported how could anyone know about it? 
pregnancy is detectable from urine sampling

the sewage systems could be monitored to alert authorities of unreported pregnancies (as well as unauthorized drug use)
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@DebateAllDaTings
The path to a result matters when determining criminality. 
the end result is the same for the person who dies

we're speaking about morality and not just criminality
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@3RU7AL
In other words, there is a lot of logic to my own morality but the foundation is as simple as feelings and subjective empathy.
great answer

how do you propose we moderate conflicts (and shape policy) when two or more people disagree about how they personally feel about a particular situation ?
Well, genius, that depends on the situation. You are trying to make me seem like a hypocrite or something and it is easy to do that when you have no clue how to defend your own stance.

For instance, you didn't defend your pig point the moment I called you out on it.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
For instance, you didn't defend your pig point the moment I called you out on it.
you didn't present an actual argument

try presenting an actual argument
DebateAllDaTings
DebateAllDaTings's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 78
0
1
2
DebateAllDaTings's avatar
DebateAllDaTings
0
1
2
-->
@3RU7AL
"the sewage systems could be monitored to alert authorities of unreported pregnancies (as well as unauthorized drug use)"

There is no way to practically regulate killing the unborn by self-induced abortion. It is not like there is a big body that police could find or anything... I guess many would simply get away with it. Either way, your following comment seems to imply that morality is the main issue not legality anyway.

"the end result is the same for the person who dies, we're speaking about morality and not just criminality"

Morally it is worse to take an action that kills someone (like pushing someone into a woodchipper) than it is to merely refrain from taking an action that saves them (like refusing to donate a liver).




3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@DebateAllDaTings
There is no way to practically regulate killing the unborn by self-induced abortion.
a number of women have been prosecuted in the United States for self-inducing abortion under a variety of state statutes, ranging from fetal homicide to failure to report an abortion to the coroner. Recently, the issue has gained greater attention because of several well-publicized cases in which women were prosecuted—and even imprisoned—for self-inducing an abortion or being suspected of doing so.

Despite claims from antiabortion advocates and lawmakers that abortion restrictions are intended to only criminalize providers of abortion care, some prosecutors have exercised their discretion under current state laws to penalize women who end their pregnancies on their own. Moreover, these laws are even being used to pursue women who are merely suspected of having self-induced an abortion, but in fact had suffered miscarriages. [**]
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@DebateAllDaTings
Morally it is worse to take an action that kills someone (like pushing someone into a woodchipper) than it is to merely refrain from taking an action that saves them (like refusing to donate a liver).
what evidence do you have to support this claim ?
DebateAllDaTings
DebateAllDaTings's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 78
0
1
2
DebateAllDaTings's avatar
DebateAllDaTings
0
1
2
-->
@3RU7AL
What evidence? The fact that killing an innocent human carries with it a sentence of multiple years in prison, if not life, or even the death penalty and is regarded as one of the worst crimes one can commit.

Such punishment's are not had for not donating your liver; it is not even considered a crime (let alone a bad one).

This shows that us that society view actively killing someone as far worse morally than merely refraining to save someone from death if you can. If this was not the case, we would not have such consequences for the former in comparison to the latter.

There is not always a 1 to 1 comparison, but the law does tightly correlate with morality. This is why stealing and rape are illegal; they are morally repulsive (just like murder), while failing to donate organs even though people need them to live is not illegal.









3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@DebateAllDaTings
What evidence? The fact that killing an innocent human carries with it a sentence of multiple years in prison, if not life, or even the death penalty and is regarded as one of the worst crimes one can commit.

Such punishment's are not had for not donating your liver; it is not even considered a crime (let alone a bad one).

This shows that us that society view actively killing someone as far worse morally than merely refraining to save someone from death if you can. If this was not the case, we would not have such consequences for the former in comparison to the latter.

There is not always a 1 to 1 comparison, but the law does tightly correlate with morality. This is why stealing and rape are illegal; they are morally repulsive (just like murder), while failing to donate organs even though people need them to live is not illegal.
ah,

notice how your first impulse is to cite legal precedent - are you now a legalist ?

notice how your second impulse is to cite "social norms" - are you now a moral relativist ?
DebateAllDaTings
DebateAllDaTings's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 78
0
1
2
DebateAllDaTings's avatar
DebateAllDaTings
0
1
2
-->
@3RU7AL
I am not a legalist in totality, although, as I said, there is a correlation when it comes to the most severe moral atrocities. Also, I thought it was common sense that not donating your liver to save someone is far less of a moral atrocity then pushing someone into a wood chipper. However, if you wish to shift the debate to moral realism vs moral relativism then that's a rabbit hole I would rather not go down. It has been fun however. 
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@DebateAllDaTings
I am not a legalist in totality, although, as I said, there is a correlation when it comes to the most severe moral atrocities. Also, I thought it was common sense that not donating your liver to save someone is far less of a moral atrocity then pushing someone into a wood chipper. However, if you wish to shift the debate to moral realism vs moral relativism then that's a rabbit hole I would rather not go down. It has been fun however. 
well,

if you take a legalist stance, there is no reason to change the law to "outlaw abortion" because LEGALLY abortion is not considered a federal crime

if you take, as you said, a "society view", then perhaps there may be some justification for outlawing abortion AFTER VIABILITY

but in neither case is ABORTION equal to MURDER (which is what you seemed to be suggesting the entire time)
DebateAllDaTings
DebateAllDaTings's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 78
0
1
2
DebateAllDaTings's avatar
DebateAllDaTings
0
1
2
-->
@3RU7AL
Viability is irrelevant. Abortion is the intentional act of killing an innocent human and thus should be considered murder even if it is not legally. Not being viable shouldn't magically take away that human's basic right to life in my view.

I also never once claimed to be a legalist. 

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right, as slavery and the holocaust were once legal. I only said there was a general correlation; not a direct 1 to 1 correspondance.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@DebateAllDaTings
Viability is irrelevant.
BUT WHY ?

when discussing the difference between "letting someone die" and "killing someone" you used "the law" and "social norms" to justify the MORAL difference

both "the law" and "social norms" support viability as a reasonable cut-off

what OTHER source (not legal and not social) are you using to carve out this specific exception for abortion = murder ?
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@3RU7AL
Yup if there were a different house the person could go to, then the obligation is lessened. However, if the person is dependent i.e they have serious cognitive dissonance, it would be immoral to force him to the other house where he will inevitably die.  
so, basically, if there were 100 houses, everyone could refuse and nobody would be responsible
Instead of reading off your script and bread trailing, could you just tell me what conclusion you are trying to get at? 
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Danielle
As far as your thought experiment, it's really not a good point at all. I'll explain why later if he doesn't
Well for such an active forum, only one has engaged with it (with an admittedly poor response), so you would be a first. 

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Bones
Instead of reading off your script and bread trailing, could you just tell me what conclusion you are trying to get at? 
i'm attempting to decipher your moral framework
DebateAllDaTings
DebateAllDaTings's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 78
0
1
2
DebateAllDaTings's avatar
DebateAllDaTings
0
1
2
-->
@3RU7AL
Why would viability be relevant to the moral right of an innocent human to not be killed? I fail to see how viability has any relevance.

If it does, you have to justify such relevance as you brought it up to begin with.

With the overturning of Roe v Wade I'm not sure laws and social norms do support your position. 

Why would someone being non-viable magically erase that human's right to not be killed? What do you support that statement with?
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@3RU7AL
The only relavant facet of my moral ontology is the notion that, prima facie, a human beings right to life is superior to one's liberty. The idiocy of the philosophical pro-choice movement is, to me, akin to if one were to smoke a pack a day and be surprised they have cancer. Like, what do you expect, cop your L, no one told you to smoke. 
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@Greyparrot
Do what, author a bipartisan bill instead of a partisan bill?

Why do you think Schumer felt the need to say he wouldn't compromise on the bill even though that ensured it would not pass?

 What leadership in either party do you think will step up and do this? Author a bi-partisan bill instead of the usual far-extreme wing BULLSHIT.

First let's acknowledge how easily you're dismissing our constitutional right to bodily autonomy -- which you have never once denied exists -- and suggesting that Democrats be more malleable on this subject despite the fact that abortion restrictions infringe on citizen's bodily freedom from government tyranny. At least you acknowledge that Democrats are the ones trying to prevent this kind of tyranny, but I'm not impressed. This kind of overreach should really bother you. 

The pipe dream of a bipartisan bill is not happening. Manchin and the (two!) so-called pro-choice Republican senators had the opportunity to codify abortion rights, but voted against the Women's Health Act. Codifying Roe as-is without rolling back current state laws and restrictions would mean the heartbeat law stays in place. That is unacceptable. Democrats should not be compromising on that at all. 

Further what the Women's Health Act does is prevent states from keeping laws that try and deter women from getting an abortion - laws that force women to go to the doctor or clinic for multiple visits before being allowed to have the procedure; laws that have medical providers advise women that abortion is a sin; laws that force medical providers to give women inaccurate and unsound medical information about how the fetus feels pain, etc.  Talk about far extreme-wing bullshit! Why should states be allowed to keep these laws that try and shame/deter women from the procedure if we have a right to abortion? 

Manchin, Murkowski and Collins not voting for the Democrat bill is straight up political theater. They want to give their voters the impression they are pro-choice (Manchin is anti-choice, but the others come from more libertarian states) while at the same time kissing the party ring. They know damn well even if all three of them signed on to the Republican bill instead, it would still fall well short of the threshold to pass it. And their bill is trash. 

Here is the only way to codify abortion rights in the near future: 
1) Dems have to win the presidency in 2024
2) Kyrsten Sinema has to be replaced by another Democrat in the Senate
3) Democrats need to gain at least one seat in the Senate 

The filibuster has to be repealed and the VP would have to override the 50-50 vote assuming Manchin continues to vote no.

There isn't going to be a "bipartisan bill."  Republicans will not vote for abortion protections until viability. I have no idea why you think they would.




Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Danielle
Why do you think Schumer felt the need to say he wouldn't compromise on the bill even though that ensured it would not pass?

but voted against the Women's Health Act.
Which was a straight up partisan bill by every measure.

There isn't going to be a "bipartisan bill."  
That's a shame. No Democrat leader is going to kick Schumer in the balls for stonewalling a bi-partisan version?

Republicans will not vote for abortion protections until viability.
Did you take the time to read the GOP version or did you just say fuckit like Schumer?
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@Greyparrot
Codifying Roe as-is without rolling back current state laws and restrictions would mean the heartbeat law stays in place. That is unacceptable. Democrats should not be compromising on that at all. 
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@Greyparrot
What is partisan about the Democrat bill? What is wrong with it? Have you read it? 

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Danielle
Codifying Roe as-is without rolling back current state laws and restrictions would mean the heartbeat law stays in place. That is unacceptable. Democrats should not be compromising on that at all. 
So reverting to the exact state of law right before Roe was overturned is unacceptable. Gotcha babe.

And here I was thinking you guys would do anything to go back to the days of Roe.
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,922
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@3RU7AL
i'm attempting to decipher your moral framework
Bones has no moral framework in regards to a pregnant woman.  Bones is partriarchal based, peverted virtual rapist, and to think they have a moral framwork regarding pregnant women is a little like thinking that...............?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Bones
The only relavant facet of my moral ontology is the notion that, prima facie, a human beings right to life is superior to one's liberty.
so, why do you only believe a person is morally obligated to provide shelter for another human in a snow-storm

if there are no other homes nearby ?

at what point does the number of nearby homes mitigate "a human beings right to life" ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Danielle
Democrats should not be compromising on that at all. 
perhaps a stop-gap measure is better than zero action
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@3RU7AL
he only relavant facet of my moral ontology is the notion that, prima facie, a human beings right to life is superior to one's liberty.
so, why do you only believe a person is morally obligated to provide shelter for another human in a snow-storm
Literally because the person in the house's liberty is not as important as the literal life of another being? But even this does not do justice to the immorality of abortion. Consider if, in the mountain example, it was your child who was outside. Would you then have an obligation? Obviously yes, because you are responsible for the child being there. Much the same is for the case of abortion. 
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@DebateAllDaTings
Why would viability be relevant to the moral right of an innocent human to not be killed? I fail to see how viability has any relevance.
you're the one who used "social norms" to justify the moral position of "not donating a kidney"

according to "social norms" fetal viability is a reasonable point at which to prohibit abortion
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Bones
Obviously yes, because you are responsible for the child being there. Much the same is for the case of abortion. 
ok, so nobody has a "right to life" unless you're a blood relation ?

also,

who exactly is going to bring a criminal case against you if you live 100 miles from your nearest neighbor ?

also,

Infanticide is also a defense to murder, in that a person accused of murder who successfully presents the defense is entitled to be convicted of infanticide rather than murder. The maximum sentence for infanticide is five years' imprisonment; by contrast, the maximum sentence for manslaughter is life, and the mandatory sentence for murder is life.

so, apparently,

infanticide != murder
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@3RU7AL
Obviously yes, because you are responsible for the child being there. Much the same is for the case of abortion. 
ok, so nobody has a "right to life" unless you're a blood relation ?
No, I am saying the mother-child relation is one which ought be highly regarded. If a mother neglects to feed a random kid on the street, she isn't morally reprehensible, but if she fails to feed her son, then she's acting immorally. It's this distinction which you are missing.