Bodily Autonomy

Author: Danielle

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Danielle
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@RationalMadman
I think it's reasonable to distinguish rights based on characteristics including IQ. There's a reason minors can't legally consent to sex. The mentally impaired may not be cognizant enough to vote or exercise control over their person and property in some cases. For instance Britney Spears was forced to use an IUD as contraception against her will. And while I disagree with the extent of her conservatorship, there is legal precedent (and usually good reason) to limit people's rights based on certain attributes. For example a convicted murderer  loses their second amendment right to own firearms. So not all Americans qualify for the same rights let alone all humans at all stages of development. That's a good thing.
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@Danielle
You either disagree and think her father is a scumbag or you don't.

I have made my stance clear and am unsure why you are trying to male this all about me.

I am one of the most radical thinkers out there when it comes to rights and by radical I do not mean extreme.

I do not base merciful treatment on rights, I base on the situation. A fetus defaults to desperately wanting to be born and exist at some point, to me that would be the point it matters actually. To me, the reason it us okay to treat farm animals in a prisoner like way is because animals do not particularly crave too much autonomy and freedom. That said, I am very much for ethical treatment of them overall.
Danielle
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@Greyparrot
Narrow or not, it is the law of the land and implies legal exemptions to bodily autonomy in certain cases.
Only in the case of raising armies because the constitution explicitly gives Congress the power to do that. Is there any other case you can think of where the Courts said it's okay to seize control over the bodies of non-criminal suspects? 
Danielle
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@RationalMadman
I have made my stance clear and am unsure why you are trying to male this all about me.
I responded to you because you tagged me in a post  which signaled that you wanted me to engage. I was trying to be polite and acknowledge you for once. Rest assured I have no interest in making this thread about you lol. I'll stop replying if you feel that my responding to you is somehow antagonistic. 

I do not base merciful treatment on rights, I base on the situation. 
Sure, but I'm asking about our constitutional rights, so this is probably not a conversation you'd like to participate in. 
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@Danielle
Does anyone deny that we have a constitutional right to bodily autonomy, or does anyone feel that we shouldn't have this right?

I absolutely do feel that bodily autonomy is and ought to be an inalienable human right and understand that right to be codified in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

I am not convinced that the Fourth Amendment, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated" guarantees that Right to Privacy that the Supreme Court upheld in cases like Griswold, Lawrence, Eisenstadt, and until Jun 24th Roe. I am glad the Supreme Court made those findings and discovered a Right to Privacy, I'm just skeptical that the language of the Fourth Amendment really implies bodily autonomy or a Right to Privacy in a modern sense. 

My read of history is that the founders naturally accorded themselves and their fellow patriarchs an expectation of family and sexual privacy that they did not extend to the women, servants, slaves, children subject to their patriarchy and, as exclusive beneficiaries,  probably felt no necessity to protect constitutionally a security the founders already possessed  socially.  It is not clear to me that preventing the Federal govt from violating my personal security means the same thing as our modern expectation of a Right to Privacy.  We can say with confidence that the Founders considered abortion and family planning the jurisdiction of the patriarch and the midwife and certainly not a public concern.

I also believe We the People are charged by the founders and the Constitution with forming a more perfect Union in every generation and amending our Constitution to address our more perfect understanding of human equality and enfranchisement. 

I think that there should be an Amendment to the Constitution that explicates a Right to Privacy to an extent that makes Federal restrictions on family planning, health decisions, euthanasia, drug use, etc. impossible as well as corporate intrusions now commonplace such as phone tracking, all visual and audio monitoring like Echo devices and iPhone image collating.  To the extent that our day to day business has become a valuable commodity to commerce, we possess a self-evident  right to sell or refuse to sell that data as we see fit and need to claw this right away from Amazon, Google, Apple, etc. post haste.

So I guess I do deny that there is now an obvious and explicit constitutional right to bodily autonomy.  I personally benefitted from the inferences of earlier courts and was fine with enjoying the benefits of that interpretation but now seeing how leaving the question to interpretation exposes us and our descendants to further disenfranchisement,  I believe that human right to bodily autonomy is self-evident, necessary, and appropriate to enshrine in our Constitution.
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@RationalMadman
Animals do not crave too much autonomy and freedom.

Notwithstanding that humans are animals.

Humans crave association as much as other animals.

Though humans probably consider the concepts of autonomy and freedom more than other animals.

Though I'm reasonably certain that given the chance most animals would instinctively prefer to be free from human oppression.


I am one of the most radical thinkers out there.
Says who?

You I suppose.

Nothing wrong with blowing one's own trumpet.
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@Danielle
Is the "my body my choice" argument one which you support?
Yes, and I think the principle should be extended even further than the status quo (i.e. all drugs should be legal, prostitution should be legal, etc). 
The principle of bodily autonomy can only be disingenuously compared to the case of abortion. 

Why do you think the concept of exercising control over one's body is such a stupid idea? 
I only think it's a stupid idea when people attempt to draw a comparison between this "control of my body" notion with the case of abortion.

As for your original stipulation, "does anyone deny that we have a constitutional right to bodily autonomy, or does anyone feel that we shouldn't have this right", I would say most agree, which is why the fetus too ought have the bodily rights not to be killed. 
Where does the law stipulate that constitutional rights apply to the unborn?
It can be inferred. 

U.S. statute stipulates that a pre-natal zygote / embryo / fetus has certain rights. This, because of 18 USC §1841 (a)(1):   
 
“Whoever engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) and thereby causes the death of, or bodily injury (as defined in section 1365) to a child, who is in utero at the time the conduct takes place, is guilty of a separate offense under this section.”

In McVall v. Shimp, the Court ruled that it is unacceptable to force someone to donate body parts even in a situation of medical necessity. So even if we accept that the unborn have a right to not be killed per se, there is a question about the extent to which a woman has to "donate" or utilize her body to keep that fetus alive.
The case of abortion is not one as innocent as you are attempting to make out. I like to use the following example to illustrate this stipulation: 

Suppose there exists a room which gives all those within its walls a natural spike in dopamine for a period of 20 minutes. The entrance is free, however, there is one condition - if you enter, there is a 2 percent chance that you will exist with a human being, whose life is contingent upon your body, attached to you for a duration of 9 months. Now suppose that you enter this room multiple times with no repercussions, however, after a number of trips, you find a human being attached to you. Are you morally allowed to kill this human being? Is the "my body my choice" rhetoric applicable? I assert that, if you willingly enter the room, you implicitly accept that there is a chance for the repercussion. 

Now, the room that I describe is not some fantastical dream world - it is the bedroom in which people have sex in. The statistics likewise pair the chances of one concepting a child when wearing contraception. Unless you argue that it is entirely moral to murder the human being in my example, the logic for abortion does not work. You will also notice that the "my body my choice" talking point is insufficient - in my example, your body, made your choice to enter the room. Too bad you got unlucky, no one forced you into the room.  
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@Bones
There are obvious parameters that could be decided upon relative to the ethicality of abortion.

Though some ethics are unreasonably based upon fantasy concepts, rather than biological and practical ones.

Overthink and imagination is the human condition.
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@zedvictor4
I don't know of many others who are against absolute human rights in general, I'd say I have a radical standpoint as I disagree with 'rights' altogether and believe in defining ethical treatment according to context. That is probably the most radical standpoint to have.
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@Danielle
Sure, but I'm asking about our constitutional rights, so this is probably not a conversation you'd like to participate in. 
Constitutional rights until you're in a CIA black site interrogation. Let me guess, you think only non-Americans were detained and interrogated, that's what they let you know.
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@Danielle
I love machine guns. They have no relevance to my question about the constitutional right to bodily autonomy
My point being: even if that right exists, that doesn’t justify abortion since rights aren’t absolute

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@Danielle
Not every human being has the same legal rights, that's correct. Just ask any immigrant, mentally impaired, minor or felon. 
And yet, if someone kills an immigrant, mentally impaired person, minor, or felon, they will be charged with murder.
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Humans and insects have very different bodies. But there are many ways in which the two are actually very similar. Because of these similarities, studying insect physiology is helpful for medicine and agriculture.
How much of your DNA do you think is the same as a fruit fly's? Would you have guessed 60%? That's right, 60% of the DNA code of fruit flies and humans is identical. That means that most human genes and insect genes are the same and function very similarly.
Most of the enzymes made by insects and humans are also very similar. Muscle and nerve cells also work alike in humans and insects. We both have brains, hearts, digestive tracts, reproductive organs, and muscles that do more or less the same things. Humans and insects all require oxygen and food and they all produce wastes.

Should we really be killing Fruit Flies?
Greyparrot
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@Danielle
 it's okay to seize control over the bodies of non-criminal suspects? 
Thanks for pointing out another exception to the rule. Criminals have no autonomy.
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@bmdrocks21
rights aren’t absolute

There are always exceptions.

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@SirAnonymous
And yet, if someone kills an immigrant, mentally impaired person, minor, or felon, they will be charged with murder.
Or be charged with  double murder for killing a pregnant woman.
Danielle
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@RationalMadman
Constitutional rights until you're in a CIA black site interrogation. Let me guess, you think only non-Americans were detained and interrogated, that's what they let you know.

No, I don't. My wording was very intentional to account for things like this (Guantanamo Bay. etc.).  That's why I specifically asked if he could think of a case where the Courts said it's okay to seize control over the bodies of non-criminal suspects

And to be frank I don't understand why you're continuing to engage me when you've already said that you don't care about rights and I'm specifically trying to have a conversation about constitutional rights.  Very weird.  
Danielle
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@bmdrocks21
My point being: even if that right exists, that doesn’t justify abortion since rights aren’t absolute
You don't have to bring guns into the conversation to make that point, but yes, I agree. What are some other instances where voters should get to make decisions over other people's  bodies and medical procedures or elective surgeries? Are there other cases where it would be okay to force someone's body to endure things against their will? For example would it  be okay to require vaccination as a prerequisite to rights and citizenship? 
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@oromagi
 It is not clear to me that preventing the Federal govt from violating my personal security means the same thing as our modern expectation of a Right to Privacy.

Thanks for your  reply - that's what I was hoping to discuss. I've read countless books/articles and opinions from historians and constitutional scholars that are pro choice and anti-Roe, so I'm familiar with the arguments against Roe specifically when it comes to privacy even from people that agree abortion should be legal. I kind of wanted to start with exploring the idea of autonomy and go from there. I concur with Justice O. Douglas that a general right to privacy is found in the penumbras, or zones, created by the specific guarantees of several amendments in the Bill of Rights, and I think the nod to autonomy is even more secure than privacy. But I g2g for now - I look forward to conversing more about this later. 

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@Danielle
human rights unless you don't fancy the human having rights.

gotcha. 

constitution wishy washy as always
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@Danielle
Do you agree with the SCOTUS that legislators should explicitly define bodily autonomy rights especially regarding abortion?
Danielle
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@Bones
U.S. statute stipulates that a pre-natal zygote / embryo / fetus has certain rights.
Incorrect. 

This, because of 18 USC §1841 (a)(1):   “Whoever engages in conduct that violates any of the provisions of law listed in subsection (b) and thereby causes the death of, or bodily injury (as defined in section 1365) to a child, who is in utero at the time the conduct takes place, is guilty of a separate offense under this section.”

I'll respond to your post in full later, but the reason there is a law that makes it a crime to kill a fetus is because a fetus has no rights and it's not considered murder. The victim in this case would be the mother or the state, not the fetus. They wouldn't have needed to create a separate statute specifically for killing the unborn if killing them warranted a murder charge. 



Danielle
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@Greyparrot
Thanks for pointing out another exception to the rule. Criminals have no autonomy.
Correct, and there's no need to thank me. I've been making this point for years. 

Do you agree with the SCOTUS that legislators should explicitly define bodily autonomy rights especially regarding abortion?
No I don't. Rights need not be narrowly defined. The constitution shouldn't have to specify a right to abortion either; it's not a legislative text. 
Danielle
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Damn I thought I had time to respond to oromagi's post now but I'm going to the beach lol BBL.
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@Danielle
JELLY!
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@Danielle
No I don't. Rights need not be narrowly defined. The constitution shouldn't have to specify a right to abortion either; it's not a legislative text..
I disagree. The SCOTUS answers to legislative amendments, not the other way around.
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@Danielle
According to the 13th amendment:
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

This logically extends to bodily autonomy. People are not property.
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@Barney
This logically extends to bodily autonomy. People are not property.
well stated
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@Danielle
Thanks for pointing out another exception to the rule. Criminals have no autonomy.
Correct, and there's no need to thank me. I've been making this point for years. 
amputating the legs of all felons will very likely reduce crime
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@Danielle
I deny. How dare someone cough corona into my mouth. Should people not be forced into vaccination clinics, subdued against their will and injected with an antidote to cure their stupidity? If you disagree certain vaccines should be mandatory, lets debate.