A hypothesis on the nature of politics

Author: Bones

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#31
thett3
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@Bones
This is pretty much where I have landed as well, with the caveat that some of the policy positions different groups hold come from different values as opposed to just wanting to pwn the other side. After all, there have to be some actual differences or the groups wouldn't exist to begin with. As an example, progressives often criticize pro-life people for also being less likely than average to support things like increased welfare spending, universal healthcare, etc. But their opposition to these things comes from the same impulse that causes them to be pro-life in the first place. Those people tend to believe more in an internal locus of control, right or wrong their beliefs would generally be that pregnancy isn't something that just happens, and lifelong poverty isn't something that just happens, but that these are the result of choices people made that they need to take responsibility for. Immigration as an issue is one most prone to cynical lies to cover up the real reason people are in favor/opposed to it, and the vaccine mandate existed solely as an attempt to punish vaccine skeptics who were disproportionately right leaning (bc vaccine hesitancy worldwide was basically a proxy for "do I distrust the current government?"), but not all issues are that way.

What I am still trying to grapple with is just what causes political affiliation in the first place. I'm leaning heavily towards it being basically an inherent facet of personality that's with someone either from birth or at least by the time childhood is over. Depressing but I think that's where the evidence lies.
#32
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@Bones
You are actually conforming to the very archetype which I condemn in the post. The very fact that you say "shouldn't have gone out larping" is merely to proselytize your political agenda to others. The debate about Rittenhouse isn't whether he should have "gone out larping", it is "was Rittenhouse in the right when he fired at addressing protesters". The only reason this whole "larping" thing has come out is because those who believed Rittenhouse was wrong (a belief which I argue as one based on ridiculing their opposition and furthering their own position) have realised that they were terribly mistaken and thus, in an attempt to salvage dignity, argue that he is still in the wrong for "larping". You would never tell someone who gets viciously raped in front of their children that they "shouldn't have been larping", because the elephant in the room is the rapist. Yet in the world of politics, we go to such disgusting lengths to preserve the integrity of our ideology. 

Great catch. One of the more depressing aspects of politics is that many people (on any side) struggle to disassociate even with the worst members of their group. The people Rittenhouse killed were all videotaped from multiple angles attacking him as he retreated. As a legal issue it's not something rational minds can disagree on, and the fact that it was brought to trial at all was a travesty. And no blame is assigned to the protestors for "larping." 

The right does this too, see how people would defend of downplay all of Trump's unacceptable behavior...I was guilty of this myself. It's hard to disassociate and realize that you aren't personally responsible for everything done by members of your "side" so you dont have to be a defense attorney for it, and you don't have to have strong opinions on things you don't understand either
#33
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@Reece101
1. I agree, it is just more likely that you will convince people in the crowd.

2. Mexican's Voting
It will be overhauled in the same way that any system is overhauled. Progressives replace it with an alternative, before preceding to tear the alternative down and so on...

This happened in the french revolution for example.  

Didn’t you say the left are defined as progressive? Just call them Democrats.
The left-wing is naturally progressive as it is in opposition to the conservative right.

I do not actually think that video shows racism, at least not in a serious capacity. It honestly looked like the guy just did not want to answer what he saw as a bait question. Even if that one person is racist, he does not constitute a serious threat. I mean, he is not even willing to say it if he is a racist because he knows how unpopular that would be.

3. Commonalities
Abstinence education surely works on some, and birth control is not effective in the long term. This is because it has a failure rate of around 5%. Those are pretty bad odds if someone is regularly having sex.
#34
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@Bones
You said he shouldn’t have gone out larping all whilst ignoring the fact that he was literally assaulted by a gang of weapon wielding thugs. I argue that this is the same as me saying she shouldn't have gone out larping when confronted with a rape victim.
I don't consider going outside looking sexy to be the same thing as heading into the middle of a riot to stand against the rioters strapped with an AR15.
#35
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@Bones
Based take!
#36
Reece101
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@Kritikal
2. Mexican's Voting
It will be overhauled in the same way that any system is overhauled. Progressives replace it with an alternative, before preceding to tear the alternative down and so on...

This happened in the french revolution for example.  
You think there will be a french style revolution if progressives win at the voting booth?

The left-wing is naturally progressive as it is in opposition to the conservative right.
That’s true, but not when Democrats gain power.

I do not actually think that video shows racism, at least not in a serious capacity. It honestly looked like the guy just did not want to answer what he saw as a bait question. Even if that one person is racist, he does not constitute a serious threat. I mean, he is not even willing to say it if he is a racist because he knows how unpopular that would be.
The confederate flag is the more telling part where many Americans stand on issues. And they’ll vote on them. 

3. Commonalities
Abstinence education surely works on some, and birth control is not effective in the long term. This is because it has a failure rate of around 5%. Those are pretty bad odds if someone is regularly having sex.
It’s more effective than being taught abstinence-only. 



#37
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@Reece101
You think there will be a french style revolution if progressives win at the voting booth?
No, but new systems will replace old systems. It is like how the 1619 project tried to replace the narrative of the founding for example. 

That’s true, but not when Democrats gain power.
It is absolutely true when democrats gain power. Their legislative agendas are far more effective than Republicans.

The confederate flag is the more telling part where many Americans stand on issues. And they’ll vote on them. 
I do not agree that the confederate flag is used to stand for racism. I would not fly it my south, but I do legitimately belive that most simply fly it due to tradition. 
It’s more effective than being taught abstinence-only. 
I disagree. It cannot be more effective in the long term. After just 3 years of use there is a 50/50 chance. 
Of the people who listen to abstinence only, they are not going to have sex. 
#38
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@Kritikal
No, but new systems will replace old systems. It is like how the 1619 project tried to replace the narrative of the founding for example. 
Didn't the founding documents try to appease southern states? Also I’m sure there was a lot of trade involving slave produced products between the south and north. 

It is absolutely true when democrats gain power. Their legislative agendas are far more effective than Republicans.
Which progressive legislation stands out to you that has been implemented?

I do not agree that the confederate flag is used to stand for racism. I would not fly it my south, but I do legitimately belive that most simply fly it due to tradition.
Tradition is good because tradition. Got it.
You could have said it stands for sedition or something.

I disagree. It cannot be more effective in the long term. After just 3 years of use there is a 50/50 chance. 
Of the people who listen to abstinence only, they are not going to have sex. 
These just sound like things you want to be true.

29 days later

#39
Ehyeh
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@Bones
Although this can definitely be an element of debate, you must first believe what it is you espouse to wish to ridicule another for their beliefs. Otherwise why else would their beliefs seem silly and laughable to you, unless you thought them faulty? A Nazi may not like black people, but he will be nice and warm towards them if they have common goals (such as the segregation of the black and white communities). In this same sense a conservative may be fine with letting Mexicans in (even if they don't like Mexicans) if Mexicans will support other values they have (such as gun rights and limited government). Outside of that, you're right that most people are far too stubborn to learn anything from a debate, most people never go into them with the intention of learning or growth. That's what separates' the greats (like Socrates) from the fake philosophers (the sophists) who think they know everything.
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I think what you do point out though, is that most people form their beliefs based on some form of social identity, or view politics like a football club, refusing to truly investigate their own beliefs, being satisfied with their own limited narrative and believing them to be universal and absolute (although they do truly believe they're right, they just don't question it enough to realise how inflexible they are).
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The left and right do agree on many issues. There is such a thing as leftist libertarians and right libertarians. Some leftists (like anarchists) like small government or (no government), like conservatives and anarcho-capitalists. Not all Democrats have the same views on when abortion should be made illegal. Not all conservatives believe abortion should be prohibited in all circumstances. A lot of Democrats strongly agree with conservative gun laws. There are many overlaps if you know where to look.