Something that I don't understand

Author: TheUnderdog

Posts

Total: 94
Topic's author
#1
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
There are 4 following issues in my head:
1) Believe women (which I agree with the right on).
2) Death penalty (which I agree with the left on)
3) The Ukraine war (which I side with the right on)
4) The Iraq war (which I side with the left on)
5) Firing someone for being gay/trans (which I side with the left on)
6) Firing someone for being unvaccinated (which I side with the right on)

Why do most people I come across either agree with the left on all of these issues or agree with the right on all these issues?  Why are there few people that look at each issue individually?  Is it because people are partisan hacks?
#2
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheUnderdog
Excluding #1 which I feel is strawmanned, 2-6 are... Confusing to me.

Many right-wingers are anti-Iraq war and many left-wingers see Saddam Hussein as this evil sociopath/psychopath (which he was) that ought to have been taken down as he was.

Your question is the bipartisan hacked thing here, not the 'sides' you are dividing.

5) Firing someone for being gay/trans (which I side with the left on)
The right wing don't generally support this, only the far right do.

6) Firing someone for being unvaccinated (which I side with the right on)
Many right-wingers agree with this, what they disagree with is government mandates on it.
Topic's author
#3
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@RationalMadman
I don't think #1 is strawmanned.  I've met plenty of people that support believe women.

Many right-wingers are anti-Iraq war and many left-wingers see Saddam Hussein as this evil sociopath/psychopath (which he was) that ought to have been taken down as he was.
I don't think this is true.  I think the vast majority of Republicans liked the Iraq war when Bush did it and disliked it when Obama did it.  The corporate dems liked the Iraq war when Obama did it and disliked it when Bush did it.

The right wing don't generally support this, only the far right do.
The right thinks you should be allowed to fire someone for being LGBT because it's a business choice in their view.  "There a private company; they can do what they want"(the same thing the left says about Big Tech censorship).

Many right-wingers agree with this, what they disagree with is government mandates on it.
The right thinks you should not be allowed to fire someone for being unvaccinated.  
#4
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheUnderdog
Erm... Wouldn't you agree that your concept of right-wing politics itself makes no sense here?

The right thinks you should be allowed to fire someone for being LGBT because it's a business choice in their view.  "There a private company; they can do what they want"(the same thing the left says about Big Tech censorship).

The right thinks you should not be allowed to fire someone for being unvaccinated.  
Also just for your information your 'there' is meant to be a 'they're' in case you care about that and want to improve it.
Topic's author
#5
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@RationalMadman
Wouldn't you agree that your concept of right-wing politics itself makes no sense here?
I think the concept of Right wing politics AND left wing politics makes no sense.  The right thinks private companies should be allowed to do what they want when it comes to firing LGBT people (but not for Big Tech censorship or firing the unvaccinated) and the left thinks private companies should be allowed to do what they want when it comes to firing unvaccinated people or Big Tech Censorship (but not for firing LGBT people).  The right makes no sense, but ALSO, the left makes no sense.  I'm willing to call out both sides because I try and be consistent.  Most people will defend their side no matter what contradiction they run into.  The chads are the independents, who have principles and don't care if the left or right backs an idea.  If it works with their principles, they support it.  I have enough left wing and right wing beliefs, so I am confident I think for myself.  But with post 1, if you agree with the left on every issue or the right on every issue, I think your being a partisan hack.
#6
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@TheUnderdog
1.) Believe women (which I agree with the right on).


Both sides agree on this when you get past the rhetoric of the  right and left pretending like they mean getting rid of the presumption of innocence.


2) Death penalty (which I agree with the left on)

Cool

3) The Ukraine war (which I side with the right on)

Most of the left and the right are in the corner of the Ukraine. 

4) The Iraq war (which I side with the left on)


It's just the centrists who supported that on both sides. Not really a left right thing

5) Firing someone for being gay/trans (which I side with the left on)

You will not find anyone on the right other than libertarians who think being fired for sexual preference is reasonable. 

6) Firing someone for being unvaccinated (which I side with the right on)

The left are funny here. They were bluffing so hard and when they found out they would be severely understaffed they panicked and backed up. 
#7
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
Both sides agree on this when you get past the rhetoric of the  right and left pretending like they mean getting rid of the presumption of innocence.
"Believe women" is a rather unambiguous slogan. Accusations of sexual misconduct are a zero-sum game where believing the accuser ("women") means disbelieving the accused (presumably a man).

"Hear women" is a far better slogan. It means seriously listening to allegations as opposed to dismissing them uncritically, without the unacceptable connotation spelled out above. The fact that the left chose the more problematic slogan suggests that they really don't believe that accused men deserve the presumption of innocence.
#8
Kritikal
Kritikal's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 76
0
1
7
Kritikal's avatar
Kritikal
0
1
7
I feel like in every day life most of the people I know agree on most of these right or left actually. For believe all women basically everyone (barring the furthest to the left SJWs ) has realized that women are people, and that some people lie. I also think the tara reed thing with Joe Biden brought a lot of people away from this slogan/belief. I feel like basically everyone says the war in Ukraine is bad, but we should not start WWIII. I think the only difference is that the left wants to send more aid (which in some cases is fine, but for example the airspace thing would have started WWIII, but this is more of a misunderstanding thing than anything else). I can honestly say I do not know a single person who supports the war in Iraq on either side.  The LGBTQ issue can be contentious, but I do not know anyone who would fire someone for this even if they disagree with it. 

The vaccine thing is definitely true, and covid is probably the biggest issue between the left and right currently in general. 

The death penalty is an interesting one. Certainly the data shows that conservatives support it more, but I reality I think this may be an over simplification. Support could just mean reduce, and I also find a lot of leftists who want to save it for the worst of cases. I think that the entire population falls between very rare - never. More so than any issue I think this is the hardest to predict by party, and I know a lot of people go back and forth on it personally as well (myself included).






#9
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@TheUnderdog
Why do most people I come across either agree with the left on all of these issues or agree with the right on all these issues?  
It's a very good question. So for all of the threads you have started on this, and all of the times you have  declared or implied your superiority because you can "think for yourself" while proclaiming everyone that falls along typical right vs left lines to be mindless partisan hacks... Have you ever done any actual research on this?

I fall on the left side of almost every issue, including  the ones listed. So do I not understand these issues? Am I just taking the positions I'm told? How do you even go about judging it? In all the threads I've seen from you I have yet to hear even an attempt at a serious analysis.

1) Believe women (which I agree with the right on).
That's not the left's position. Whether they should be believed is situational and based on evidence, the left wing position is that all women should be heard and taken seriously.

3) The Ukraine war (which I side with the right on)
What exactly is the "left" and "right" position on Ukraine?
#10
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@TheUnderdog
How would the "left" and the "right" see the Ukraine war?

The right supports Ukraine, so does the right supporting Russia, as different rightists are different. The left just stands by, exclaims, and relives their past moments as Soviet Union.
#11
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@Wylted
6) Firing someone for being unvaccinated (which I side with the right on)

The left are funny here. They were bluffing so hard and when they found out they would be severely understaffed they panicked and backed up.
Try stripping all unvaccinated employed people of any means of purchase, bar them from shops, strip clubs, bars, stadiums, and anything that requires a lot of peope in a public space. There is no way people are willingly lockdowning themselves indefinitely just to not be vaccinated, and even then, it will be extremely little.

#12
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
1.) Believe women (which I agree with the right on).


Both sides agree on this when you get past the rhetoric of the  right and left pretending like they mean getting rid of the presumption of innocence.
Or just believe whoever has the better testimony and evidence on the centre side because this isn't even remotely factional. There is no preference, and there shouldn't be one.

If I am said to be "left" and "right" on this, that is because this issue is really that biased and one-sided.

#13
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Intelligence_06
Try stripping all unvaccinated employed people of any means of purchase, bar them from shops, strip clubs, bars, stadiums, and anything that requires a lot of peope in a public space. There is no way people are willingly lockdowning themselves indefinitely just to not be vaccinated, and even then, it will be extremely little.

Sounds like how the Chinese would deal with the problem. Did you see they were recently exposed for jailing a bunch of Muslim minorities in concentration camps for things like owning a Koran, using a VPN and one Muslim minority was even arrested for being in the same house as Muslims when she was arrested

What's funny is it is something the Chinese lied about after being caught and then back pedaled and claimed these arrests we're voluntary . https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp
#14
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Double_R
That's not the left's position. Whether they should be believed is situational and based on evidence, the left wing position is that all women should be heard and taken seriously.
Hillary Clinton actually did specially say "believe women" implying the presumption of innocence should be eradicated. 
#15
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
Ah yes, BBC is a reliable source, obviously, for extremely obvious reasons.

But you just tried to disprove an approach using another "failed approach"(which isn't even proven on definite solid ground) unrelated to it.
#16
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Intelligence_06
This is said. The Chinese government has even since admitted it after somebody hacked into their computers to get the Chinese documents and videos proving it, but you are not allowed to think for yourself. 

The BBC typically actually covers up Chinese atrocities, so you know if they report on it, it's definitely got to the point where it can't get ignored. 

Why do you think the Uyghur population is treated the same as the residents of Hong Kong?
#17
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
Here is another news site reporting it

#18
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
But just tell me why this doesn't work, because you seem to express disproval over whatever I said.

Then again it could be illustrated by the divisiveness of local governments from each other and the incompetence of the police force resulting not a lot of people trusting what the government does and when they do, always someone will label them a bootlicker and get away even if the act is rational(or to say, maybe there is no rationality to what they do because the people are as divided and incompetent, if not more).
#19
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
Same story reported in Newsweek the New York times and news papers from a variety of countries as well. 
#20
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Intelligence_06
Then again it could be illustrated by the divisiveness of local governments from each other and the incompetence of the police force resulting not a lot of people trusting what the government does 
Distrusting the government is not even an issue. I trust that a massive detention camp was built and used to get rid of ughers who have their own unique culture and way of thinking, and China wants a hive mind so they will try to squash independent thought. You are subjects not citizens.

As far as why your plan won't work in the I ited States is that a lot of us would rather die than become non free. We like freedom, even when the freedom means more people have COVID-19. 
#21
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
I understand that you need to be scared what you say. Normally I leave Chinese citizens alone. If you aren't scared you can be rounded up and disappeared because the government is evil. 

You don't tend to ignore discussions about the Chinese government though. You actually go out of your way to minimize the harm it causes to it's own people or try to explain it away. 

You are maybe related to a Chinese official or just a useful idiot. I am not sure, but your defense of these shit heads is unreasonable. 

There is a reason why your people have to resort to living in 3rd world conditions while even the poorest Americans have a full belly, a television, internet and cable
#22
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
Hillary Clinton actually did specially say "believe women" implying the presumption of innocence should be eradicated. 
MTG said there were Jewish space lasers
#23
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
The Chinese government set up a system to understand and help local citizens if they have grievances against local police or other government officials. To show how sick the Chinese brain is. I met a lady from China, whose job in China was to follow citizens around to make sure they did not contact federal government with greivances.

That's right. They would rather let their town become shitholes than to accept help from the party to address grievances, and hired people to ensure it remained a shithole
#24
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Double_R
MTG said there were Jewish space lasers
I don't know who MTG is, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis had a secret weapon in orbit with lasers. 
#25
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
It is reasonable because I am literally Chinese. Americans, many of them, don't defense like this because America isn't that united on values aligned.

Why should I be scared? My values align with the government to so much extent. Being caught up and imprisoned is what will happen to YOU if you are a Chinese if you keep this defamation shit up.

There is a reason why your people have to resort to living in 3rd world conditions while even the poorest Americans have a full belly, a television, internet and cable
China is the country to have the most efficient process of bringing people out of extreme poverty. Rich people are much more unequal in the US than in China.

Why are we talking about this? Just stop talking about how much you utterly hate my home country and talk about the flaws of the vaccination and the anti-anti-vax policy I have proposed. What is the problem and why is it impractical?

#26
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Intelligence_06
The files are here with police training videos the Chinese used names of ughers locked up and for what crimes. Crimes such as "being a teenager in the same room as a Muslim" another one was a discovery that an elderly lady once looked at the Koran 20 years ago  https://www.xinjiangpolicefiles.org/


#27
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Intelligence_06
My values align with the government to so much extent. Being caught up and imprisoned is what will happen to YOU if you are a Chinese if you keep this defamation shit up.

At least you admit they will imprison people for bringing light to problems so they have an opportunity to fix them. 

Kinda typical that the a CCP party apologist would think hiding problems to appear perfect is better than exposing them. And working towards a resolution

Also typical that a CCP party apologist would think they have to perfectly align their beliefs system with the leader of China instead of thinking for themselves. 

Being a hive mind bug person is not a value. Becoming a hive mind bug person is a reflection of lack of values. 
#28
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
Can we stop talking about how you hate China with a burning passion and talk about what is wrong with the vaccination policy that I have brought up. We get your point.


#29
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
Also typical that a CCP party apologist would think they have to perfectly align their beliefs system with the leader of China instead of thinking for themselves. 
I will not allow you to defame my motherland and my people and myself like this. I think for myself and I think my nation and my people are good. This is not a forced opinion. It is my own opinion. If you think "aligning with the government" and "thinking for oneself" is mutually exclusive, then good luck being an anarchist. I think for myself while align with the government, and absolute individual anarchism brings no good to society because there is little to no organization.

I will stop talking about it now, but I am so angry right now I might as well make an exception.

#30
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Intelligence_06
Dude I love China. I brought it up because you brought up some bullshit way to deal with COVID 19 that resembles China's current zero COVID policy. 

The CCP is not China. They just rule of China. Chinese people and culture is awesome. Every part of it. The Chinese government is trying to stamp out that culture. For example by exterminating the Uyghur. However China is a blend of a lot of unique and beautiful cultures. 

Your people are hurting. Maybe not you personally, but a lot of your fellow citizens are being persecuted, their beautiful minds are being infected with party propaganda like "we all have to have the same values as our leader" .

Chinese values are great. Chinese values have nothing to do with xi Jinping.

And when there is an internal battle for whoever controls the CCP next. The values of whatever type of ruthless person it takes to control that party is going to not reflect the values of China.


Don't confuse Chinese and CCP values. If you want to piss on the grave of your grandfather's and great grandfather's and their fathers go ahead. Their values had nothing to do with CCP values though.

How much of Chinese history is lost because of the CCP? You know China has pyramids that rival the pyramids of Giza and the Chinese government hides them. 

China is not the CCP. The CCP is just a tumor who has infected it