The question of personhood.

Author: Greyparrot
Biden
Corruption
DNC
civil war

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#61
Lemming
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@ebuc
I get what you say about people being forced to get along,
And would think myself, that is a fair bit of what America 'is,
Don't go around murdering people for being a 'bit different than oneself or group.

And it's 'likely I underestimate Trumps pull on people or groups,
I was dumbfounded when he was elected,
Though I 'during his presidency I disliked him, I could understand people 'voting for him in re-election,
Start a Civil 'War for him though?
I am doubtful there are enough people to matter,
And far less enough people to 'hold him in power.
Not unless some 'big threat came about.

I disagree that religious followers cannot see any 'nuance in egg, sperm, fetus, baby, though.
Unless we are talking about 'small group of religious followers,
I think as thett3 says in another thread, many people are willing to accept abortion in 'some situations and cases, but not all, or not for convenience.
#62
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
Are the laws I vote on, not within my jurisdiction?
have you ever voted for a law ?

but to answer your question,

(IFF) you can vote for a law (THEN) it is within your jurisdiction

i should have been more specific

i was referring to your personal jurisdiction (presumably you don't call the police every time someone does something you disapprove of)
#63
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
One can 'excuse human weakness, but it is not something I should 'aspire to, I think.
a clear and achievable goal is essential
#64
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@Lemming
I 'have tried to help people, and made situation worse.
I'm sure laws have existed, do exist, that require people 'act in situations,
Whether to just call the police, or step in themselves.
you might be rather surprised to know that the police are NOT legally obligated to help you, even if you call them

people have tried to sue the police for not showing up to assist them and the courts have ruled the police have no legal obligation to assist
#65
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@Lemming
And situations 'can be worse if done illegally, than legally.
People make similar argument about prostitution, and drugs, I think.
Though I'm not wholly convinced that consequences are better or worse, depending on legal or illegal.
compare and contrast amsterdam and detroit

#66
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@3RU7AL
I've voted for people, for certain political offices,
And there's been laws at times I think,
Though I don't remember most of the people or laws.

Lot of people and laws I 'haven't voted on, not knowing enough about them, to have a strong opinion.

. .

True, I don't call the police for everything I disapprove of,
Never called the police that I can recall.

Teachers and superiors, more common,
Though it's 'better to my mind, if problem can be solved on my end,
Or persons involved.
Hm, I don't 'think I've ever called teachers or superiors on situation regarding individuals in a problem, I'm not of myself, only observing.
Or parents.

Usually problems smaller, easier to weather,
Or I lack moral courage to 'do more,
Some situations talk to person involved, see if they need any help, or 'want to contact someone higher up,
Hm, but I'm not sure I 'remember talking to people very often, seeing if they need help.
Distant pasts, memory fails.

@3RU7AL    #63
Clear and achievable goal is essential, I'd agree.
Difficult to 'do anything without identifying what problem is, what needs to be done.
Often difficult to know if you even have accomplished anything, without identifying goal.

@3RU7AL   #64
I'm not as familiar with the law as I'd 'like to be.

Locations might not 'be comparable.
Different locations have different constitutions, thresholds, likely actions and behaviors.
#67
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@Lemming
Locations might not 'be comparable.
Different locations have different constitutions, thresholds, likely actions and behaviors.
prostitutes are much safer in las vegas than they are in detroit

you would have a lot of trouble making a case that thc legalization in colorado has not been a net benefit

alcohol prohibition ended in 1933 because people realized that the cost of enforcement and the criminal syndicates that are created by prohibition are WORSE than the perceived "problem" of individuals who may or may not over-consume alcohol (not to mention that government officials were some of the biggest purchasers of illegal alcohol)
#68
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@Lemming
Clear and achievable goal is essential, I'd agree.
Difficult to 'do anything without identifying what problem is, what needs to be done.
Often difficult to know if you even have accomplished anything, without identifying goal.
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY
#69
Lemming
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@3RU7AL
I'd have to do research,
Before having a strong outward opinion on legalized marijuana or prostitution.

True though, that America had trouble with crime, when they outlawed alcohol.
I can not say if it was a good or bad action, myself, I'd have to do more research.
#70
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@Lemming
Clear and achievable goal is essential, I'd agree.
Difficult to 'do anything without identifying what problem is, what needs to be done.
Often difficult to know if you even have accomplished anything, without identifying goal.
all laws should be based on the same set of coherent axioms

the goal of lawmaking should be to make laws that never require modification

all laws should be enforced with perfect uniformity
#71
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@Lemming
.....And it's 'likely I underestimate Trumps pull on people or groups,...
 
How true for most of us.  Trumpet is just the latest megaphone for an undercurrent of people not happy with the status quo.

Trumpet tapped into several groups with his rhetoric that begins with racist bigoted attitudes as one of the problems for good hard working white peoples.

A few people or groups have been commenting on a coming race war for many years.

Race, religion, abortion, economics, taxes, allededged freedoms, privacy freedoms, real freedoms from real threats are all things Trumpets rhetoric taps into to make himself king of kings.  

Remmeber Jan 6th was primary white folks of which some were white crackers { whip in hand }. If it been people of color of primarily non=-christian backgorund, can you imagine the outcomes?

......."Cracker," the old standby of Anglo insults was first noted in the mid 18th century, making it older than the United States itself. It was used to refer to poor whites, particularly those inhabiting the frontier regions of Maryland, Virginia and Georgia. It is suspected that it was a shortened version of "whip-cracker," since the manual labor they did involved driving livestock with a whip (not to mention the other brutal arenas where those skills were employed.)

...Over the course of time it came to represent a person of lower caste or criminal disposition, (in some instances, was used in reference to bandits and other lawless folk.) "...
#72
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@ebuc
I also don't see any coming race war,
If there 'was going to be a race war, it would have been in the past,
When different groups were held to different rights,
When the KKK had a significant pull and power.

#73
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@Lemming
I also don't see any coming race war,
People of 60's, 70's and 80's saw a coming of a Mutually Assured Destruction { M.A.D } war.  Did you see that first hand?

Have you seen info about the black manifesto I posted some months back?  Wherein, the author recommends that most of the blacks whose ancestors migrated to the north, should all  move back to regain control of government in 7 southern states.

Lets say the fanatical religious based right wins out on the abortion issue, and the issue is moved to the states.

So now we have moved from a more unified society to a more divided society. You recall what happen after Yugoslavia went back to three differrent countries in the 90's { Serbian Croatian religious and race violence }.

The Universe divides to conquer.  When peoples divided or unify to conquer it is always a there is almost always,  a  historically chaotic --if not always violent--- transformation process.
#74
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@ebuc
whose ancestors migrated to the north, should all  move back to regain control of government in 7 southern states.
that's how democracy works
#75
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@ebuc
I'm in my late 20s,

I don't recall reading the manifesto, no,

I 'don't think significant enough number of abortion people are going to move based on their beliefs,
Though I think they 'ought,
People 'ought live by the laws 'they think are right, to an extent.

I don't think society's divided enough, that there'll be war.
#76
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@Lemming
While I understand how you could have this interpretation, by my definition, those who are mentally challenged are definitely still alive. Mentally challenged people still experience consciousness and sentience and experience emotion and are deserving of the ability to continue the life that they have begun.

If a human could not experience consciousness or complex emotion for whatever reason and was certainly never going to ever again, then they are not alive. This is not applicable to mentally challenged people.

A pro-lifer sees the possibility of a human and wishes to protect that, yes, I'm simply expanding what is, all the same, a possible human life and showing the logical conclusion of believing we must protect possible lives. Forcing women to have babies for as long as biologically possible is self-evidently deplorable and tyrannical and it naturally follows from the logical principles that pro-lifers use to justify protecting an unborn child.
#77
Lemming
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@Nyxified
Arguably, there are many 'different conditions of mental impairedness.
That I hazard/guess, individuals might exist, with awareness on par with a dog, a lacking or impaired sense of higher emotions.

But of course a dog is still 'alive, and that's the word you used,
But so is a fetus 'alive, I would think, heartbeat.

But even a 'braindead human is 'alive,
But they do not feel experience consciousness or complex emotions, words you used.

Sociopaths and Psychopaths exist, but I 'think are many different types and degrees of,
I've read some claim they lack or at least commonly have great loss of emotions,

Certainly a fetus if fully developed, is going to "experience consciousness or complex emotion"

Sorry I'm rambling a bit, not 'quite trying to make a point with any of these.

I might have missed your reply to this,
But I say again,
Eggs and sperm alone, are not new people, 'new DNA, of and 'not of our own.
But a fetus 'does seem someone new, (To me).
The argument of forcing children to bear children for all the 'potential children,
Doesn't 'quite match Pro Lifer's argument I think (Usually),
I think Pro Lifer's see 'a human, more than the possibility of a human.

#78
Nyxified
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@Lemming
A dog is alive, yes, but dogs are put down frequently if they are violent. This is viewed as sad, sure, but few would say it's morally deplorable or anywhere near the same level as if you killed a child with anger issues. This is for all the same reasons as the cow example I gave earlier.

I'll admit to the word 'alive' being misleading, but I felt as though it was clear given the context. If this is not the case, I apologize. Yes, braindead humans are alive, but they do not possess person-hood anymore. They cannot be a human because they cannot 'be' to begin with. A psychopath and sociopath both still experience emotion and/or consciousness enough so that they possess person-hood and are entitled to the rights and moral considerations therein.

Pro-lifers may believe that a fetus is a human and not just the possibility of a human, I would just disagree with their definition. When it comes to why killing a human is bad (this is not a question, it obviously is bad, just regarding the reasons as to why that is actually the case), I can see not see any reason that applies to a fetus beyond a belief in the soul or the inherent value of life. The soul argument is purely pseudoscientific and the inherent value of life argument would mandate never eating a vegetable or eating an animal or stepping on grass (since fetuses are no more alive than those are). I suspect the reason that the latter is uncommon is because anyone who believes in it logically must learn to photosynthesize or starve to death.
#79
Lemming
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@Nyxified
Your clarification of alive 'does help me,
Though in context I'd agree it 'was probably clear enough.

We 'do execute humans, though moral arguments 'not to, seem to be gaining traction these days, I think.

At what point in human development, do we surpass a cow or dog in intelligence, consciousness, sentience?

Likely belief in the soul 'does drive many Pro Lifers,
Though I myself am an Atheist and a Materialist, I don't believe in the soul, or an afterlife.
But, . . I'm also a Moral Nihilist, in that I reject moral objectivity, intellectually, not in action,
For 'in action, I really don't know how I could,
Humans make decisions, value judgements, act, hold to some sort of habit or code,
What then do we value?
Ach, rambling,

Point is even without souls, I value humans,
And in a fetus, I see a human.

Though I was 'raised religious, so that might have some input on what I value,
Though some Atheists raised Theist, instead 'reject anything and everything connected to religion, in their rejection and despising of religion.
#80
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@3RU7AL
And yeah 3Ru, it would be smart move for people of any mixed bag of color, could they unify around a common cause.

This is where chaos of demographics of democrats fall flat on their face. How to unify such a diverse set of viewpoints and concerns around a common cause.

Trumpet did it once ---two whatever degree-- and got near to doing again.  I'm not sorry to be the sad grape at the table, when I say, humanity needs to get on the ball and unify around a common cause of survival and leave 90 percent of this other petty stuff for some 500 years from now.

Do really need more PVC dumped into the oceans?  Do really need more radioactive waste sitting around at various locations?  Do really need keep making so many babies every year, that only increase the already overpopulation problems, from which the largest percentage of humanites problems stem from?

Humanity needs to ' get real ', real quick-like.
#81
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@Nyxified
because anyone who believes in it logically must learn to photosynthesize or starve to death.
some merely grow their own food

instead of consuming the fruits of exploited labor
#82
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@ebuc
Do really need more radioactive waste sitting around at various locations?
Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors (LFTR):
#83
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@3RU7AL
3Ru, yes the salt coolant alternative.  people have salt-water tears. Other primates do not, if I understand correctly.

Cetacceans have salt-water tears also, if I understand correctly.  So 7.5 million years ago, humans split off from apes, yet retained the salt-water tearing aspect.

Is this an evolutionary sign that humans should adopt salt cooled nuclear reactors?  Then  there are those who say fusion is the true savior for humanity.

Carl Sagan said we are the stuff of stars, i.e. all of our elements come from stars at some point, so, maybe the high temperatures associated with teh fusion in stars is what we need on Earth to save humanity from its looming end-date-time.

Fertilized egg > travels { falls? } to uterus and becomes re-attached > 9 months later shazam! a baby pops out with an attached cord as 9 months source of nutrition from its pregnant woman > then the nurses clear the mouth of liquid mucus and the the baby now has safety to takes its first in-spirited breath > then baby searches for nipple for its immune stabilizing nutrition of breast milk.

Am I personhood yet?  I dunno kiddo, do have the proper paperwork filled out? 
#84
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@Nyxified
Actually, after thinking it over, I don't know for sure 'what I see in a fetus,
I get a bit dramatic sometimes, in debates.
And I'd say I have logic and ideas, that contradict other logic and ideas,
But I have that about 'many logics and ideas,
That only a big contradiction or logic 'might worry me.
Rambling,

Talk of what makes a human, reminds me of a webcomic though.

Still, I'm not interested in having kids, and would decline to do so, if the opportunity ever arose,
But I 'don't think be positive, towards aborting a kid, if the situation ever 'did occur,
Though some might argue it an empty vessel without experiences, awareness.

Hm, though what's awareness,
Human grown in a box, or empty void,
Likely be very underdeveloped,
But I'm rambling.
#85
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@Lemming
The First Truth acknowledges the existence of suffering. It says simply that suffering is a part of life on earth.