The question of personhood.

Author: Greyparrot
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#31
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
We care when a bully, bullies a victim, and we 'see it occur, for by our perception of said event, we 'are part of it.
the bully and the victim are both presumably citizens of the same territory

and

the victim always has a right to file a complaint and or take legal action

in the case of a "wrongful death" the victim's next of kin has a right to file a complaint and or take legal action

some random person on the street does not have a right to file a complaint and or take legal action

for example

chris rock declined to press charges against will smith for assault

even though many people were "affected" by will smith's assault on chris rock

none of them have legal standing

because they have not been materially harmed
#32
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@3RU7AL
True, enforcement is selective.

And if I think back to your argument on countries turning immigrants away,
Perhaps national borders are similar to,
Can't one use that same argument for land property and human slaves, during American period of slavery?
Though I would not agree that 'similar is the same,
Though if I do that for the border argument, I must do it for the body argument.
. . .

A nation is a shared location,
A body is a private location,
. . . Hm, I don't have a point with the shared and private location bit, just thinking to myself, trying to work out thoughts to self.

More on topic though, on response to,
"do you believe women own their own bodies ?" - 3RU7AL

What does a fetus own?
If an individual is tossed into the road, and I run over their leg,
Both causing a location for blood to escape, and by my car parking over it, 'blocking that escape of blood,
'Ought I drive off, killing that person?
How much worse if I 'ordered that person to 'be tossed in front of my car?

Situation is confusing, which is why I mention Loki's neck.
#33
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@Lemming
It's not about money.
please explain
#34
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@3RU7AL
Some random person on the street has a moral obligation to file a complaint and or take legal action.

And how will the fetus or baby press charges, being as they are, a fetus or baby?


#35
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@3RU7AL
"It's not about money". - Lemming #27
"please explain" - 3RU7AL #33

Explanation, 
"because nobody (outside that sovereign territory) is materially damaged" 3RU7AL - #25

It's not about 'myself being harmed,
It's about protecting those who cannot protect themselves,
It's why hospital staff report parents, if it looks like their child is suffering from abuse.
#36
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@Lemming
What does a fetus own?
the unborn lives on the whim of the ruler of the territory in which it finds itself

in the same way that the ruler of a sovereign country decides who stays and who goes and who lives and who dies

imagine if one country decided to try and tell every other country that they are no longer allowed to forcibly deport or kill anyone ?

imagine if one country decided to try and tell every other country that they MUST provide dialysis and other expensive life saving drugs to anyone who required them ?

imagine what this country would have to do in order to ENFORCE these demands ?
#37
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@3RU7AL
We seem to care about Ukraine and Russia?
#38
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@Lemming
It's not about 'myself being harmed,
It's about protecting those who cannot protect themselves,
It's why hospital staff report parents, if it looks like their child is suffering from abuse.
which likely results in many children not receiving medical attention

it's the classic priest's dilemma
#39
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@Lemming
We seem to care about Ukraine and Russia?
exactly

but somehow we didn't give a shit about Georgia being invaded or the Rwandan conflict

the "reason" we "care" about Ukraine is, they control roughly 30% of the world's wheat production

with the effects of climate change spiraling out of control and the looming threat of "covidz24"

food shortages are practically inevitable

Ukraine is strategically significant
#40
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@Lemming
Some random person on the street has a moral obligation to file a complaint and or take legal action.
please explain
#41
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@Lemming
And how will the fetus or baby press charges, being as they are, a fetus or baby?
they can file a complaint with the owner of the territory in which they reside

and if that does not yield satisfactory results

their next of kin can file a complaint on their behalf

do you care about miscarriages ?

because there are way more miscarriages than abortions 

and technically at least half of them are theoretically preventable
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#42
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@3RU7AL
Ukraine is strategically significant
To money launderers LOL!
#43
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@3RU7AL
Is this not how small nations become large nations?
How international law is made?

If criminals are reported and caught, they become more stealthy,
But this is better than criminals acting in free reign with no worry of being stopped.

Even if I dislike someone, or they do not provide benefit to me, it is not morally right to ignore their plight.

We live in a society, and by our existence viewing others, by our power, are 'part of the interaction.
An individual who sees a child fall in a well, says nothing, does nothing, ought be rebuked, shamed, acted against in the law.

Ah, and how horrible this applies to myself, and every opportunity I do 'not, the right action.
Well, some situations less ambiguous than others,
Some situations the ought less felt or compelled,
Some situations, self interest a common thread enough, no law compels.

Is a miscarriage not often a cause of grief?
Not because an opportunity died, but a 'person, by some people's standard?
#44
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@Lemming
If an individual is tossed into the road, and I run over their leg,
Both causing a location for blood to escape, and by my car parking over it, 'blocking that escape of blood,
'Ought I drive off, killing that person?
How much worse if I 'ordered that person to 'be tossed in front of my car?
(iff) you did not INTEND to cause damage

(then) you are not morally culpable

end of story

in every situation you do what you think is best IN THE MOMENT

there should never be a law that FORCES you to "render aid"

because in many cases, attempting to assist leads to more harm than good
#45
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@3RU7AL
I was just drinking, I didn't 'mean to run over that person with my car.

Some situations of aid being possible to render, are more clear cut than others.
#46
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@Lemming
Is this not how small nations become large nations?
How international law is made?
international law is not like the law that you and i know

international law is a strong word for an agreement, a sort of consensus, which holds about the same weight as a promise from a stranger

violations of international law are not enforceable

and

the united states has formally withdrawn any support and or association with the international criminal court

wouldn't it be nice to be able to tell a judge "i have formally withdrawn my support for this court, so you can't hold me"
#47
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@Lemming
I was just drinking, I didn't 'mean to run over that person with my car.

Some situations of aid being possible to render, are more clear cut than others.
sure

but your decision is your own decision

you can never be forced to render aid
#48
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@Lemming
If criminals are reported and caught, they become more stealthy,
But this is better than criminals acting in free reign with no worry of being stopped.
the law is reactive, never proactive

the law always presumes innocence

coercing a child to testify against their primary caretaker is statistically NOT in the child's best interest

if a nurse wants to PERSONALLY get involved and offer perhaps free and or low cost childcare for the suspected victim, that's their personal choice

but simply "calling the cops" in order to "clear your conscience" rarely if ever benefits the child
#49
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@Lemming
Even if I dislike someone, or they do not provide benefit to me, it is not morally right to ignore their plight.
do you eat chocolate ?

do you drink coffee ?

do you buy gasoline ?
#50
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@Lemming
We live in a society, and by our existence viewing others, by our power, are 'part of the interaction.
An individual who sees a child fall in a well, says nothing, does nothing, ought be rebuked, shamed, acted against in the law.
which law ?

how would you personally write such a law ?
#51
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@Lemming
Is a miscarriage not often a cause of grief?
yes, quite profound grief

and abortion also causes profound grief

but we can't write a law to make grief illegal
#52
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@3RU7AL
International law is not quite the law of an individual nation, true.
And most of time, people cannot tell judge, "I have formally withdrawn my support for this court, so you can't hold me"

I consider it immoral, 'not to render aid, in many situations.

The law is complicated,
And perhaps statistics show that child abuse should be ignored, but I am doubtful.

I have never claimed to be perfect.

I do not know.

The murder of a close loved one, causes grief,
We write laws against murder.
An accidental death, causes grief,
We work 'against such accidents occurring.
An accident of negligence causes death, causes grief,
We might make laws requiring people hold proper awareness in certain situations.
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#53
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@3RU7AL
Point is if people are willing to go to war (some people actually enlisted and died over there) over a strategical money laundering country like Ukraine, it's just as plausible they would go to war over the lives of dogs, cats, fetuses, and other things that resemble humans.
#54
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@Lemming
I consider it immoral, 'not to render aid, in many situations.
of course

have you ever sincerely tried to help someone and ended up making things worse ?

also

this abortion thing is about "the law", not moral or immoral

my question was "how would you write a law to force someone to render aid ?"
#55
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@Greyparrot
Point is if people are willing to go to war (some people actually enlisted and died over there) over a strategical money laundering country like Ukraine, it's just as plausible they would go to war over the lives of dogs, cats, fetuses, and other things that resemble humans.
great point
#56
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@Lemming
The murder of a close loved one, causes grief,
We write laws against murder.
An accidental death, causes grief,
We work 'against such accidents occurring.
An accident of negligence causes death, causes grief,
We might make laws requiring people hold proper awareness in certain situations.
law is ALWAYS based on jurisdiction

every jurisdiction defines murder in their own way

for example

an executioner is NOT a murderer (according to the law)

even though the executioner is intentionally taking the life of someone who is no threat to them personally

and shockingly

many jurisdictions have "felony murder" statutes, which make any fatal accident even indirectly associated with the act of a crime a technical murder

but these "felony murder" statues do not apply to police misconduct

the problem here

is that a miscarriage and a home abortion look identical
#57
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@Lemming
Even if I dislike someone, or they do not provide benefit to me, it is not morally right to ignore their plight.
do you eat chocolate ?

do you drink coffee ?

do you buy gasoline ?
it is impossible to "not ignore" someone's tragic plight

that's why you must focus on your own jurisdiction
#58
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@Lemming
I have never claimed to be perfect.
your own sense of morality needs to be realistic
#59
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@3RU7AL
I would say laws form due to values,
Whether that value it morality, or self protection.


Though what is 'meant by morality confuses me these days,
Given that I can imagine a morality based around self interest,
I 'dislike holding to moral nihilism, yet 'having to behave as a human, follow morality,
I've not thought of it for a time, but I dislike the dissonance I feel from it.
. . .

I 'have tried to help people, and made situation worse.
I'm sure laws have existed, do exist, that require people 'act in situations,
Whether to just call the police, or step in themselves.

Though I admit, I'm unsure myself, how one would write a law,
And even if such a law 'should be written, a bit.

I speak of 'moral obligation, more than I do 'legal obligation,
Because I 'do agree a bit,
On the difficulty or dislikability of 'forcing people to act, in a framework they have not agreed on, or have a clear cut responsibility.

It's easier to say don't murder,
Than say risk your life to catch the murderer, even if you're not a police man.

Exact word semantics, meanings, relations to other words, is confusing.
In general I mean, I agree with your point, that society usually does not call executioner a murderer.

And felony murderer status 'did cross my mind,
Though I'm not greatly fond of it myself, feels it 'reaches a bit far, often.

It 'does seem to me a problem,
That abortion seems. . . 'blurry, that people view it differently, the morality or right of it, I mean.
When significant number of people believe something, then even illegally, they will act.

And situations 'can be worse if done illegally, than legally.
People make similar argument about prostitution, and drugs, I think.
Though I'm not wholly convinced that consequences are better or worse, depending on legal or illegal.

Are the laws I vote on, not within my jurisdiction?

@3RU7AL   #58
One can 'excuse human weakness, but it is not something I should 'aspire to, I think.
#60
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@Lemming
Hm. . . There 'are counterexamples of people of differences 'living peaceful enough together. . . I'm not hearing anyone of 'significance 'say we should start a war, or start killing those different in America, currently. But maybe I'm not 'looking enough.

..." On April 7, 1963, a new Yugoslav [--remember the car the Yugo--]   constitution proclaims Tito the president for life of the newly named Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."   So every got along until --via forced getting along or else---   Soviet Union and Tito was ousted and we see the Bosian Serbian wars breakout in 90's during Bill Clintons presidency.

Similar thing with pagans, who were forced into unification   --or else--- via Mohammed.

But I myself don't agree that it follows that a fetus or newborn baby 'isn't human.
It is a question of the degree of being human. Fertilized egg is an organsim of the pregnant woman --mother to be when child is born-out of womb---  and human going through fast transformations over 9 months.

Only after the umbilical chord is cut, is the fetus/baby  a semi-independent individual takes its first in-spiration { inspirited } and alive is it a full blown and seriously independent individual human person, and no longer an organism of the pregnant woman. In China were males are so much more respected { highly prized  out of culture } it often found that the poor of society will allow to or outright kill the baby after birth, because it will be a drain on family. 

Compassion for family is important as compassion for fetus/bay or a born-out baby. Life can have difficult decisions that need to be made sometimes.

These BS fanatics cannot see degrees of existence, rather their narrow minded and biblical teachings only see black an white ways of controlling women { your misogyny comments }, who are to be dominated by men, or so their religion teaches them. Sad :---(