A second civil war may be looming due to the national divide over this same question.
The question of personhood.
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@Greyparrot
I really don't get people's worry of Civil War in modern America, unless something 'significant develops.
Trump, Abortion,
I don't see any Civil Wars in these.
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@Lemming
Something significant has been developing, power has been centralized which means its winner takes all on all issues. When enough people perceive the social contract to be breached there will be civil war.
Just because people have tolerated differing opinions on an issue before does not mean they will after all benefit of doubt dries up. Remember the USA formed over issues such as taxes < 10% of GDP. It's not just the harm, it's how the people who did it respond to your complaints. If they laugh in your face and say you don't matter shit gets dangerous.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
If they laugh in your face and say you don't matter shit gets dangerous.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
A significant centralization of power 'has occurred, I admit,
But I assume, but do not know, that such is what occurs with societies.
America started as small separate settlements, holding different values and laws,
Grouped up and homogenized over time.
Unless the change is 'sudden,
Such as the Federal demanding we give up our guns immediate like,
I don't see any 'significant backlash,
Changes in values, laws, rights and wrongs, occur more. . . small, little pieces over long period of time,
And 'need be outrage 'great enough to 'justify Rebellion, for it to have a popular movement.
Civil Rights were a huge change, and though I'll admit there was a lot of backlash, murder, riots, protests,
It wasn't carried out in such a way, or change so sudden or so great, that people rebelled, (So far as I know, I might be missing some pages in history book)
If Trump had taken power, and then 'kept power,
As in people hadn't in time dismissed his 'claim of rightful victory,
I could see a Civil War then,
But such didn't happen, and I didn't 'expect such to happen,
Trump 'claim he won, not surprising,
Trump 'temporarily and illegally seize power, 'maybe but unlikely,
Trump 'keep that power any significant amount of time, I'd be surprised.
But I'm rambling,
Another point is the 'division of the modern community, 'seems to me.
But 'is a possible that's just flawed perspective of my own, and my vision 'misses united communities, that struggle together, strive together, make great change together.
'Without separate united communities, I don't see minor issues 'uniting large factions into 'war.
These pro-coup Republicans are the Vicky White of political parties.
Oro reminds me of the idiots who sat in bleachers to watch the 1st civil war battle as a spectator sport before the war decimated their homes.
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@Greyparrot
Whether you are a person or not, you don't get to control/use my body without consent. Personhood is completely irrelevant to the question of abortion.
@Greyparrot
Who will be fighting the second civil war?
And what will it be about? Will it be about states rights and property again?
Oro reminds me of the idiots who sat in bleachers to watch the 1st civil war battle as a spectator sport before the war decimated their homes.
Says the dude who's had me blocked for two years and reports me as a bully to moderation. Greyparrot fancies himself the Robert E. Lee of debate but he's much closer to the Lee Harvey Oswald of debate: sniping patsy
Nobody's going to war over a woman's issue. Women might protest women might quit doing things and might make it as difficult as possible but nobody's going to civil war over a woman's issue. I do think if we're going to establish that personhood begins at conception that child support should start immediately after a positive pregnancy test. And that any benefits from welfare that the woman's receiving she began receiving for the unborn child too. And none of those benefits are returnable if she miscarries. You want to make the unborn a person then everything that a child gets once it's born it should be getting as soon as it's conceived. And any child support that the father pays between conception and a possible miscarriage is not refundable.
I do think if we're going to establish that personhood begins at conception that child support should start immediately after a positive pregnancy test. And that any benefits from welfare that the woman's receiving she began receiving for the unborn child too. And none of those benefits are returnable if she miscarries. You want to make the unborn a person then everything that a child gets once it's born it should be getting as soon as it's conceived. And any child support that the father pays between conception and a possible miscarriage is not refundable.
great point
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@Greyparrot
The essence of being a human is consciousness, sentience, thought, creativity, curiosity, etc... The reason most people think killing cows for food is acceptable whereas the same for humans is deplorable is not just because they're another species, but because they possess no higher brain function. If a cow could speak and tell you about their dreams to make a better world, I know very few who would be comfortable with their slaughter. A cow may experience simple emotions and some modicum of consciousness, but for while they may be alive, there isn't much living that can be done with naught but a desire for food and warmth.
A fetus does not experience any of these things. A fetus is not even alive for a significant portion of pregnancy. A fetus does not experience personhood because they are as alive as a carrot in the ground: a collection of cells that forms something bigger that consumes energy and grows larger, but experiences nothing meaningful. They can not be a human because they cannot 'be' in the first place.
"But it is a human that is soon to be. By killing them, you are killing a life that would have happened." Well, perhaps we should force every woman over the age of 12 to carry a child for as long as is possible and carry all of them to term. After all, if you didn't do this, you'd be preventing lives that would have happened if you did. Thereby, refusing to force every woman to give birth from puberty to menopause is murder just as much as abortion is.
To call abortion murder or a fetus a person is just systematic misogyny disguised as concern for children from conservatives who will kick them to the curb the second they leave the womb.
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@Nyxified
who will kick them to the curb the second they leave the womb.
yep
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@Nyxified
I think you make a good argument, but if there are animals as intelligent as humans of X age,
Then by your argument, humans don't become 'human, until they are sufficiently developed,
And some (Mentally challenged) 'never become human.
Seems to me.
Which I suppose, wouldn't be a 'wrong way of looking at the question,
I suppose that a tadpole might not be a frog,
An eggs not a larvae, larvae's not a pupae, pupae's not an adult ant,
A caterpillar is not a butterfly.
But many people still value the (mentally challenged), see them as human, though maybe they'd have to be 'very mentally challenged, not to be human by your proposed definition.
Hm, still, a carrot in the ground may not be 'as developed as a carrot popping out of the ground, but at a certain point it 'is a carrot, no longer a seed.
Eggs and sperm alone, are not new people, 'new DNA, of and 'not of our own.
But a fetus 'does seem someone new, (To me).
The argument of forcing children to bear children for all the 'potential children,
Doesn't 'quite match Pro Lifer's argument I think (Usually),
I think Pro Lifer's see 'a human, more than the possibility of a human.
A person may kick a bum or 18 year old, or illegal alien, to the curb,
But that's not 'quite the same action as 'killing them.
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@Nyxified
To call abortion murder or a fetus a person is just systematic misogyny disguised as concern for children from conservatives who will kick them to the curb the second they leave the womb.
Bla bla Bla, the same things were said in 1860 by Democrats, but simply replace woman for slave owner and fetus for slave. If this doesn't get resolved at the ballot box it will be resolved in the streets.
Make no mistake, if Democrats choose the path of violence over this issue, America will be forced to assemble 2/3 of Congress to redefine personhood for a fetus similar to the 14th amendment for EVERY state.
I can't imagine how that King Solomon solution would be better than simply letting individual state pluralities decide what to do with their fetuses.
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@Lemming
Lemming, you under estimate the religous fanatcism of these eye-for-an-eye violent types in USA.
Eye-for-an-eye = independent individual's death for a fetus { organism-of-the-pregnant-woman } death. i know its crazy but again, Ive made clear in many posts, that some percentage of these people are sick-n-the-head fanatics and border on the fringe of violent activity i.e. they are a ticking time bomb waiting for their ego to become ticked off enough to explode on civil society.
Trumpism is just a sympton of this underlying current of barking dogs, who will rip others to shred, in the time it takes for a fetus><baby heart beat to occur.
Trumpism is just the false narrative megaphone for many insurrection ideas and not just only the Biblically partriarchal religious based ideas and not other ideas that can drive these fanatical types into a crazed frenzie. People need something to believe in, and,
to concede the ego{ ego death } is likened the biblical....' camel through the eye-of-a-needle concept ' regarding profit over safety and all else.
Ego death is easy, once it is practiced. Many never practice acknowledgement of their errors, to others. That would be likened to Asian and to whatever degree more specifically Japaness, to loose face. and to save face.
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@Greyparrot
etter than simply letting individual state pluralities decide what to do with their fetuses.
better yet
simply let individual individuals decide what happens inside their own bodies
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@Lemming
I think you make a good argument, but if there are animals as intelligent as humans of X age,Then by your argument, humans don't become 'human, until they are sufficiently developed,And some (Mentally challenged) 'never become human.Seems to me.
well stated
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@Nyxified
...To call abortion murder or a fetus a person is just systematic misogyny disguised as concern for children from conservatives who will kick them to the curb the second they leave the womb......
Bla Blaing the truth is not something Orange-Grey-Parrot wants to hear at DArt. Please continue.
This all stems from biblically based partriarchal book has created fanaticals who wants to control women. Its that simple.
Why do some women buy into their fanatical abuses of women? Because women also have an ego, and a lifestyle { well to do } that stems from that ego's directing them to such a standard of living.
Why do poor women buy into it. Because the some poor are primarily subservient to the authorities, and much authority stems from those whose profits, make the rules.
Profit is king and Trumpets ego based, narrcististic illusions, likes to pretend he is the king of profits and the peoples ideas.
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@ebuc
@ebuc
It 'is likely that I do not have a clear view of statistics of beliefs, intensities towards said beliefs, and 'groupings of said beliefs.
I'm vaguely familiar with,
India splitting over different beliefs, Pakistan, India, East Pakistan.
Atheists during French Revolution, Red Russia, Red China, persecuting and attacking the religious, and religious groups.
The United Kingdom having massacres and wars between Protestants and Catholics, or maybe it was just one attacking the other, I 'did say vaguely.
Rwandan Genocide, I'm told that it being their 'neighbors often, killing or raping them, was horrible.
Pol Pot persecution of intellectuals.
'Have been riots and places burned down in America, due to ethnic tensions in past, also the Civil War that occurred.
Nazi Germany and various people it persecuted.
. . .
Hm. . . There 'are counterexamples of people of differences 'living peaceful enough together.
. . . I'm not hearing anyone of 'significance 'say we should start a war, or start killing those different in America, currently.
But maybe I'm not 'looking enough.
Well, I agree Nyxified has a point,
But I myself don't agree that it follows that a fetus or newborn baby 'isn't human.
A sperm or egg is 'part of a human, but not a human themselves,
A fetus or newborn though, to me 'does seem a human.
Though 'human, does not mean 'person, I suppose.
But I myself don't agree that it follows that a fetus or newborn baby isn't a 'person.
. . .
Hm, is a carrot seed a carrot?
It doesn't provide equal nutrition,
But 'will only grow into a fully developed carrot.
Is not just a 'piece of a carrot, I'd think.
Hm, fetus isn't the same as a 'seed though.
Comparing apples to oranges, isn't so bad, as comparing vegetables to humans. .
Though I suppose if we were a different alien race, different moral questions might pop up,
Assuming some race of sentient talking carrots existed.
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@3RU7AL
simply let individual individuals decide what happens inside their own bodies
Sadly, people care about what happens to the fetus and stray dogs. People will go to war over the poor treatment of dogs and cats. Have you not watched John Wick?
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@Lemming
Though 'human, does not mean 'person, I suppose.But I myself don't agree that it follows that a fetus or newborn baby isn't a 'person.
your body is a sovereign territory
you and only you decide who (or what) lives inside your body and for how long (this includes the right to refuse any and all medications and or interventions)
you are only accountable to you for your own body and you are free to change your mind at any moment (like a sovereign)
only when that person moves from inside your body to outside your body do they gain citizenship and the associated rights and protections
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@Lemming
Though 'human, does not mean 'person, I suppose.But I myself don't agree that it follows that a fetus or newborn baby isn't a 'person.
in the same way that saudi arabia (a sovereign territory) is perfectly within their rights to behead people for witchcraft
it's nobody's business what happens in the doctor's office (medical privacy)
nobody (outside that sovereign territory) has any standing to file a complaint
because nobody (outside that sovereign territory) is materially damaged
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@3RU7AL
Can't one use that same argument for land property and human slaves, during American period of slavery?
You know, where slave could escape the South and be free, (excepting cases where they were sent back)
I also refer you to,
I don't mean this as too serious of an argument, but I 'am reminded of Loki's Wager,
I confess, I don't understand arguments based around ownership and privacy,
I 'do understand arguments based around personhood, though I don't necessarily 'agree with said arguments claiming fetus or baby lacking personhood.
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@3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
simply let individual individuals decide what happens inside their own bodiesSadly, people care about what happens to the fetus and stray dogs. People will go to war over the poor treatment of dogs and cats. Have you not watched John Wick?
sure "they care" sure
maybe
but if medical privacy is maintained
how the fuck are they "affected" ?
if you personally don't want to have an abortion, then don't get one
if you want to prevent abortions, then perhaps make some effort to help women in desperate situations instead of blaming them for their predicament
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@Lemming
We 'do seem t o care when other nations act against internationally recognized human rights.
"enforcement" is extremely selective
technically, you can't force a sovereign nation to change their laws and or customs
unless you invade them
do you believe women own their own bodies ?
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@Lemming
When doctors molest patients.
the patient always has a right to file a complaint and or take legal action
in the case of a "wrongful death" the patient's next of kin has a right to file a complaint and or take legal action
some random person on the street does not have a right to file a complaint and or take legal action