I don't think abortion should be banned if the female gets raped (this doesn't apply to consensual sex). The fetus is a human being, but so are starving African children. I'm not going to force you to adopt a starving African kid even if it saves their life, and adopting a kid is less of a sacrifice than being pregnant. If I was raped, I aint paying child support. So nobody rape me because I aint raising your kid.
Does anyone want abortion banned in cases of rape?
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@TheUnderdog
Myself I have difficulty seeing abortion as 'right, even in the case of rape,
The 'rapist should face consequences,
But other than that, to me it seems a more similar situation as regular sex or careless sex.
We just attribute to the mother more responsibility, due to their choices, when it's not rape.
But the crux to me seems whether one view the beginning process of a human as sacred.
Personally, my holding of values as 'objective is a bit shot, but I think a human 'has to hold values, no choice, like breathing, thinking.
So I hold more to that which I prefer, am used to, use myself.
I 'still value the beginning of a human,
People say dogs are as intelligent as a (I forget how many years) old.
People in 'general don't value 'animals very much, we eat cows, pigs, various.
If one was . . . 'Rigorous in their identification of a 'person, 'when would this apply to a human?
'Some people don't mind even last minute abortions.
That being said, my view on abortion is more. . . Theoretical in my head, I don't much like the idea of forcing others to follow my own standards, disagree with abortions though I do.
Though it's not great to be lukewarm, in one's ideals.
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@Lemming
Myself I have difficulty seeing abortion as 'right, even in the case of rape,The 'rapist should face consequences,
Everyone believes that rapists should be punished so you are changing nothing by advocating this and this punishment usually doesn't help the female that was raped. It can't help the female enough.
But the crux to me seems whether one view the beginning process of a human as sacred.
An unborn baby that was conceived in rape is like a starving African kid. You should not be forced to take care of either since it's not your fault they exist.
People say dogs are as intelligent as a (I forget how many years) old.People in 'general don't value 'animals very much, we eat cows, pigs, various.
When I'm living on my own, I don't want to do eat animals.
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@TheUnderdog
The African kid is far away, and not my blood.
I feel 'less for a homeless individual that I do not see, that lives in another city,
Than a homeless individual I pass in the street.
And even that street passed homeless individual, I feel less for,
Than if an immediate family member of mine was homeless.
. . .
Hm, I think we've had this conversation before?
And it was a friendly point of disagreement, how we saw our responsibilities to others?
Well, power to you, if you get into a habit and lifestyle where you eat animals less.
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@Lemming
The African kid is far away, and not my blood.
Doesn't matter if they are related to you or not. Are you willing to adopt a kid that isn't your fault that they exist? If not, why would you expect a female to do the same thing for the fetus she got from rape?
I feel 'less for a homeless individual that I do not see, that lives in another city,Than a homeless individual I pass in the street.
But most people don't do anything about either, so they don't care about them. Nothing wrong with this, but just be upfront about it.
And even that street passed homeless individual, I feel less for,Than if an immediate family member of mine was homeless.
If my brother was homeless, I wouldn't take care of him. By brother treats me like crap.
Well, power to you, if you get into a habit and lifestyle where you eat animals less.
Thanks.
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@TheUnderdog
I think relation 'does matter.
People have values,
And one of my values is that between an arbitrary individual of my blood, and an arbitrary individual 'not of my blood.
I care more for the individual with my blood,
Moreso the 'closer in blood.
Though that's not to say I 'couldn't value an individual not of my blood, more than an individual of my blood.
It's not about 'willingness, it's about what is right,
And what is 'right, isn't necessarily how I'll 'act.
I think people have a moral obligation and duty to one another,
Doesn't mean I'm going to 'act on it.
Though I 'may act the closer or 'stronger the obligation.
I think it 'is wrong, to not help the homeless.
If my brother had treated me like crap all my life, maybe I'd feel different,
Or if I had grown up having never knowing him until today,
I couldn't say-
Well. . . Eh, anyway, I care for and feel duty to my brother,
I understand different people have different values, different families, different situations.
Sometimes it's better to be away from family if they are bad to you, take advantage of you, only results in hurt,
I only know my family as I have them now, and my values as I have them now.
Does anyone want abortion banned in cases of rape?
The Republican Party does. 13 Republican legislatures have trigger laws ready for the SCOTUS decision making it a crime for women not to bear the children of their rapist. None of these legislatures require the rapist to contribute to the financial burdens placed on their rape victims. Ten years ago, you couldn't find a single serious Republican who banned abortion in the case of rape, incest, or peril of mother- now these bans are mainstream.
Here is the present outlook of the Republican Party as expressed in the Ohio legislature last week:
DEM: "If a 13-year-old girl was raped by a serial rapist ... this bill would require this 13-year-old to carry this felon's fetus to term, regardless of any emotional or psychological damage or trauma that may be inflicted upon this 13-year-old girl"
GOP: "It is a shame that it happens, but there's an opportunity for that woman, no matter how young or old she is, to make a determination about what she's going to do to help that life be a productive human being,"
Even when woman has zero control over her sex, even when its done by force, the woman and only the woman is made responsible for making that progeny a productive human being. The state has no obligation. The rapist has no obligation. The present day GOP is the most extreme political party to ever control a state legislature.
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@oromagi
The present day GOP is the most extreme political party to ever control a state legislature.
The Confederate state legislatures who voted to secede from the US would like a word about that.
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@SirAnonymous
The Confederate state legislatures who voted to secede from the US would like a word about that.
Well, the Confederacy is correctly seen as more extreme in relation to today's political center than today's GOP but extremity is measured by distance from the contemporary center. By that measure, it was the Republicans and the abolitionist Northern Democrats who were swinging left and shaking things up. Southern legislatures' position on slavery and the rights of States to preserve their traditional economic institutions were well established and considered the moderate position over the prior 75 years. Secession and War were extreme counter-reactions to Lincoln's election, of course, but I'd argue that the Republicans had the more revolutionary politics and stood further from the American political center of the mid 19th century than the Southern Democrats.
"We went to bed one night old-fashioned, conservative, Compromise Union Whigs and waked up stark mad Abolitionists." - Amos Adams Lawrence
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@Lemming
And one of my values is that between an arbitrary individual of my blood, and an arbitrary individual 'not of my blood.I care more for the individual with my blood,
Should a female who was raped be forced to have that same sentiment? If not, then she is allowed an abortion if she was raped.
I think people have a moral obligation and duty to one another,Doesn't mean I'm going to 'act on it.
This is hypocrisy. If you care about ANY problem and you are able to help out, help out. I just couldn't care less if people other than myself are starving.
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@oromagi
If your standard makes starting a civil war less extreme than passing a ban, your standard is wrong. Quite frankly, even if the Republican party supported banning all the freedoms in the bill of rights, that would still be less extreme than starting a civil war.
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@TheUnderdog
We force people to follow 'some of our values,
It's just a question of which one's 'ought we force?
Hypocrite?
. . .
According to the logic of caring for others, we 'ought take certain actions, if we are to be in accordance with said logic. . .
If I do not 'follow those actions, am I a hypocrite?
Other logics exist,
Caring for others is just 'one goal.
. . .
I'm not sure I am, I 'do care about other people's circumstances, but still, there are times I choose my own comfort over theirs,
Hm, perhaps I am a hypocrite,
. . .
. . .
Still. . . Being 'Justified in an action according to fairness and obligation between intelligent existences. . .
Does that mean a person can'not take 'UnJustified action?
. . .
Sorry, I'm rambling, confused by morality, briefly.
But then, that's just 'Justified in that 'one end goal logic,
There are other End Goal Logics. . .
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@TheUnderdog
I'm not going to force you to adopt a starving African kid even if it saves their life,
great example
Herein enters the populous slogan "if you believe in abortion only in the cases of rape, you are enforcing the idea that women must be violated in order to have a right to their body"
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@SirAnonymous
-->@oromagiIf your standard makes starting a civil war less extreme than passing a ban, your standard is wrong. Quite frankly, even if the Republican party supported banning all the freedoms in the bill of rights, that would still be less extreme than starting a civil war.
I am calculating extremism by distance and speed of a political movement from the political center rather than the tactics used by that movement. The American Revolution was certainly a dramatic separation but I think a good argument can be made that Jefferson and Paine were closer to the contemporary thinking of Locke and Smith and Voltaire and Montesquieu than George III. Wasn't Russia's February Revolution objectively less extreme than the October Revolution or are all civil wars alike in extremity to your thinking? Were the sailors who began the German Revolution really more extreme for wanting an end to war than the Kaiser for wanting to press on? Is Ukraine today necessarily the more extreme faction because they seceded from Russia?
JP Stevens was fond of pointing out he started his Supreme Court career as the most conservative judge on the bench and ended it as the most liberal without ever changing his mind on a major issue. The Republican Party today doesn't just celebrate Confederate secession, they celebrate American's foreign enemies too- NAZI Germany and authoritarian Russia. They reject their core leader of just ten years ago- Bush, Cheney, McCain, Romney are considered traitors to their movement now. Today Republicans are advocating for jail for the young women, not just abortion providers. Alito quotes a 17th Witchhunter in defense of his outlook on abortion. 26 Republican candidates for Secretary of State are pro-coup and believe that Trump secretly won the election.
If Lincoln represented the American center when he said he would preserve slavery if only that kept the Union whole then the ideological distance between Lincoln and Davis was not so great as McCain from Trump, who would embrace any falsehood or foreign dictator for a second chance to install an American Monarchy on a White House Throne.
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@oromagi
I am calculating extremism by distance and speed of a political movement from the political center rather than the tactics used by that movement.
I am aware of that, and I think you are wrong to ignore tactics. Take this simple example. Which is more extreme:
1) A political party that wants to change the tax rate by 2%.
2) A political party that wants to change the tax rate by 1%, but is willing to start a civil war if they don't get their way.
By your standard, the second party is less extreme because their policies are closer to the center, and their tactics are not considered. However, such a conclusion is absurd on its face. Tactics matters a great deal for determining extremism. Consider another example.
1) A Palestinian who believes that Israel was founded illegitimately and starts a peaceful protest.
2) A Palestinian who believes that Israel was founded illegitimately and plants a bomb on a street corner.
One of these is an extremist and the other is merely a political activist. However, the only difference (all else being equal) is their tactics. A standard of ignoring tactics is absurd.
Wasn't Russia's February Revolution objectively less extreme than the October Revolution or are all civil wars alike in extremity to your thinking?
They are not all alike. Even so, a movement that wants to start a civil war is almost invariably more extreme than a movement that doesn't want to start a civil war but is otherwise identical.
Were the sailors who began the German Revolution really more extreme for wanting an end to war than the Kaiser for wanting to press on?
No. There was already a war going on. Context matters.
Is Ukraine today necessarily the more extreme faction because they seceded from Russia?
This is almost incoherent. Of course "Ukraine today" is not the more extreme faction because "Ukraine today" is not seceding. And when Ukraine did secede, that was during the general breakup of the Soviet Union, when there was much less risk of a civil war (which did not occur). Furthermore, there is a wee bit of difference between seceding from your own country and seceding from a country that conquered or annexed your country.
JP Stevens was fond of pointing out he started his Supreme Court career as the most conservative judge on the bench and ended it as the most liberal without ever changing his mind on a major issue. The Republican Party today doesn't just celebrate Confederate secession, they celebrate American's foreign enemies too- NAZI Germany and authoritarian Russia. They reject their core leader of just ten years ago- Bush, Cheney, McCain, Romney are considered traitors to their movement now. Today Republicans are advocating for jail for the young women, not just abortion providers. Alito quotes a 17th Witchhunter in defense of his outlook on abortion. 26 Republican candidates for Secretary of State are pro-coup and believe that Trump secretly won the election.If Lincoln represented the American center when he said he would preserve slavery if only that kept the Union whole then the ideological distance between Lincoln and Davis was not so great as McCain from Trump, who would embrace any falsehood or foreign dictator for a second chance to install an American Monarchy on a White House Throne.
Let's ignore the fact that a good chunk of this is pretending that an extremely tiny minority of neo-Nazi nuts is in fact the entire Republican party and assume that every word of this is true. Even then, the Republican party is not deliberately seceding with the known certainty of starting a civil war. That makes them less extreme than the Confederates. You cannot ignore tactics, and it is absurd to do so.
Conservative "scientists" insist that so long as you get her pregnant, it's doesn't count as rape.
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@Barney
Does anyone actually claim this?
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@Bones
Sadly yes.
I put quotation marks around scientists, to represent air quotes. One scumbag who claimed that, outright served on the house science committee.
I don't see any logical reason that says a child's life would become inherently inferior because of the actions of another person. That is an extremely bigotted point of view, hence why abortion must remain illicit in the incident of rape.
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@Novice
I don't see any logical reason that says a child's life would become inherently inferior because of the actions of another person. That is an extremely bigotted point of view, hence why abortion must remain illicit in the incident of rape.
Exactly. 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
Anyone who supports the “it’s the woman’s body” argument has to inherently support late term abortion, which is frankly disgusting.
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@ILikePie5
"frankly disgusting" - - is a genius argument
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@Novice
I don't see any logical reason that says a child's life would become inherently inferior because of the actions of another person
great point
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@3RU7AL
"frankly disgusting" - - is a genius argument
It really is. You should watch some of the videos that explain it. I don’t see how people would support that, but that’s just me.
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@ILikePie5
It really is. You should watch some of the videos that explain it. I don’t see how people would support that, but that’s just me.
there are a lot of disgusting things
do you believe all disgusting things should be made illegal ?
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@3RU7AL
do you believe all disgusting things should be made illegal ?
Good question. The answer is no. You took me a bit too seriously though. Ig a synonym for disgusting in that context would be immoral.
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@Novice
So you are saying women that get raped over and over again ought to have the full pregnancies until they cave in and go on the pill permanently just in case they are raped again?
Is thar your honest stance?
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@ILikePie5
@TheUnderdog
Abortion is a necessary evil if a society wishes to avoid mothers who resent having the baby going through with a pregnancy.
Such mothers are likely to drink and do things that harm the baby. Currently unless the baby inside thmk literally dies, they cannot benprosecuted fornthebharm towards it as far as I am aware.
Rape is not some joke event. To make her have 9 months against her will and then have to give away the baby for adoption or raise it wrong and end up with it in foster care is just an unwise leadership move.
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@RationalMadman
Such mothers are likely to drink and do things that harm the baby. Currently unless the baby inside thmk literally dies, they cannot benprosecuted fornthebharm towards it as far as I am aware.
And you don’t think that’s evil as well? Do you really want someone like that in society? I’d argue, absolutely not.
Rape is not some joke event. To make her have 9 months against her will and then have to give away the baby for adoption or raise it wrong and end up with it in foster care is just an unwise leadership move.
I never said it was some joke event. There are numerous scenarios where a child conceived from rape has been successful. Prime example is Kathy Barnette who’s running for Senate in Pennsylvania.
On a side not, I am in full support of greater funding of foster care and adoption. Money that goes to planned parenthood should be redirected to that.