Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.

Author: Reece101

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#31
TheMorningsStar
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@Polytheist-Witch
Oh, yes, you have seen through me! It isn't that I think that life is important, it isn't that I think that abortion is the unjustified killing of a life, etc., it must only be that I hate women.

Are you actually this braindead or do you just make braindead takes because you are too lazy to make any sort of real argument?
#32
Athias
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@Polytheist-Witch
Your hatred of women is noted cuz that's the only reason to try to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term.
Taking a philosophical or moral stance against the exercise of abortion does not render one by default a "misogynist." Furthermore, how one "feels" about another person or demographic is--as a friend would say--"beyond your epistemological limits." In all sincerity, it's not even relevant. Even if you were to somehow prove that TheMorningsStar "hates" women, it still would not disqualify his point (ad hominem argument.)
#33
ILikePie5
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@TheMorningsStar
Oh, yes, you have seen through me! It isn't that I think that life is important, it isn't that I think that abortion is the unjustified killing of a life, etc., it must only be that I hate women.

Are you actually this braindead or do you just make braindead takes because you are too lazy to make any sort of real argument?
Someone in a group chat I’m in called 30% of the population psychos cause they want abortion outlawed. When I as a dude bring it up, it’s always the “no uterus, no opinion.”

I’d argue it’s bad faith to engage with someone who holds these views.
#34
Polytheist-Witch
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@TheMorningsStar
If you think you should be able to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body then you consider her less than you and if you consider her less than you on some level you hate her and you can say whatever you want to you're lying through your goddamn teeth. There is no life there there is potential life there it is not a citizen, it is not born, it is not a human being yet. And you would gladly sacrifice the woman carrying that f****** fetus or even more so a clump of cells out of some sort of higher calling to save lives when it's nothing more than a hatred of the body incubating the cells. And anybody that wants to spout off that it's something different is a lying to themselves and they're lying to everybody else. You already have a problem with men who want to become women you obviously have a problem with the female sex.
#35
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@Polytheist-Witch
Oh yes, I am just oh so full of hatred! Your non-sequiturs really helped me see the truth of the matter!
Me being pro-life has nothing to do with the reality that the fetus is a life, no. That biological fact is, in fact, wrong! It is merely a "potential life" and my position is woman hatred! It has nothing to do with the idea of extending the same reasoning used to justify neglect laws to the unborn, it is woman hate!
Me thinking that we shouldn't encourage gender-affirming care is not due to the fact that the studies I have seen that actually have proper control groups bring rise to doubts on the efficacy of such therapies, that no other dysphoria uses affirmation, etc. It is that I hate women, that is why I also don't want women to become men, because I hate women so much! Such a non-sequitur in thinking must be the truth!

Your braindead logic must be the truth! Oh, how blind I must have been for not having been able to see that all I needed to do was abandon rational thinking in order to see that it is obviously the case that I must hate women! Just because there is no rational justification to reach that conclusion it must be true, after all, you have asserted it as such! Thank you for opening my eyes oh braindead one!
#36
3RU7AL
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@TheMorningsStar
it has no legal status until a magical mystical birth certificate is issued

and

none of this is about "abortion"

it's about privacy and bodily autonomy

if you think life is so precious, help a homeless person, heck, a homeless child
#37
Athias
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@Polytheist-Witch
If you think you should be able to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body
Unfortunately, this is the byproduct of subjecting one's time, labor, resources, property, and even, self to referendum. The government already instructs on how one can behave one's body (e.g. prohibition of kidney selling.) I'm against this of course, but I presume your objection is not to government, but the notion that an "adult male" would tell an "adult female" what to do, as it concern her body. It begs the question: if it were unanimously decided by an all-female population that abortion would be illegal, would that mitigate AT ALL the infraction to the principle which serves as the basis for bodily autonomy?

then you consider her less than you and if you consider her less than you on some level you hate her and you can say whatever you want to you're lying through your goddamn teeth.
There's no way that this is anything other than your projection.

There is no life there there is potential life there it is not a citizen, it is not born, it is not a human being yet.
This is categorically false. Human Development begins at conception thereby signifying the genesis of "human being."

And you would gladly sacrifice the woman carrying that f****** fetus or even more so a clump of cells
We're all a "clump" of cells.

And anybody that wants to spout off that it's something different is a lying to themselves and they're lying to everybody else.
Hedging against a valid counterargument?



#38
FLRW
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#39
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@3RU7AL
it has no legal status until a magical mystical birth certificate is issued
Oh, how foolish of me! I forgot that when discussing what political views should be adopted that we must appeal to what is the current situation within politics! How foolish of me not to realize that we must never question the status quo! How dare anyone do anything that makes such changes, how utterly foolish of me to forget such a simple fact!

it's about privacy and bodily autonomy
And to even forget that a right that isn't inviolable is actually inviolable! I forgot that I must turn my brain off in order to come to terms with this very concept! How dare I, one that is studying to go to law school forget that in order to have productive dialogues that I must forget everything I read, everything I learned from discussions with lawyers, etc. and instead hold to the truth that bodily autonomy is inviolable despite the current political reality and that we must appeal to the current political reality of a fetus not having a legal status in order to best understand things. Forgive my sins!
#40
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@TheMorningsStar
ogical fact is, in fact, wrong! It is merely a "potential life" and my position is woman hatred! It has nothing to do with the idea of extending the same reasoning used to justify neglect laws to the unborn, it is woman hate!Me thinking that we shouldn't encourage gender-affirming care is not due to the fact t
that should win her over

most women believe it should be their choice whether or not to allow a tumor to grow inside them

kinda like how you probably expect to be able to tell a guest in your house to leave if they've overstayed their welcome
#41
oromagi
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@thett3
-->@oromagi
I'm thinking Republicans  just lost 2022.
I tend to doubt that, the people who care the most about abortion are almost universally democrats at this point and highly likely to vote.
30% of pro-lifers say that they can only vote for a candidate that shares their view on abortion, up from 15% in 2008 and compared to 19% of pro-choicers who would only vote for a candidate who shares their view. 

Polls show that Americans support Roe v Wade by about a 2-1 margin but that’s always seemed a little misleading to me…it seemed to be more status quo bias/Americans not actually understanding the decision rather than supporting it.  “Pro life” and “pro choice” identifications, which seems like a better way to measure how people feel about abortion, is evenly split and has been for a while…and the parties have had 50 years to sort themselves on this issue, very few people voting Republican don’t understand what they’re getting into on abortion. 
But the issue has only been status quo on the right.

In 2007, roughly two-thirds of Democrats and Democratic leaners (63%) said abortion should be legal in all or most cases. Support among Democrats has risen by nearly 20 points since then, and 80% now say abortion should be legal in all or most cases.  Views among Republicans have remained relatively steady during this period. 
Like Putin's invasion of Ukraine,  I think Republicans badly underestimate how this shock will unify the progressives and the moderates.  

Only 40% of Republicans or just over 1 in 10 Americans believe abortion should be illegal in all cases as the Supreme Court stands poised to justify.  We are already seeing poor pregnant girls going to jail in Texas, which was almost never true before Roe.  In months, we will be seeing cases where the state forces young girls to remain pregnant to death which is an entirely radical new level of state intervention into the private lives of citizens.  By the time the election comes, some Republican states will be executing more girls for getting pregnant then men for murder.



#42
Polytheist-Witch
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If you argue against homosexuality between men because no one  here ever brings up women it's because you think a man is acting less than a man. Then you think you should get to tell a man who feels like he has the wrong body that he can't do anything to try to live as physically as possible like a woman because it makes him less than a man. Then you want to tell women that they can't make decisions on what they can and can't do with their body when every day people remove clumps of living cells from their body called cancer. Do not then try to tell me that you don't find all of that a problem cuz you think women are less than you and they're less than that clump of God damn cells. And if you want to try to tell me that you think that way but that you don't hate women on some level you are a liar. It's no different than saying some other type of person is less than, nobody ever says if you're a bigot you don't hate POC. Nobody says if your anti-semitic you don't actually hate Jewish people. But you can continually talk about how the feminine and women are less than men in these situations but think you can say well I don't hate women. Bull crap.

#43
3RU7AL
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@TheMorningsStar
it has no legal status until a magical mystical birth certificate is issued
your unproposed alternative would be citizenship at conception

which would require forms to be submitted every time someone engages in intercourse (so you don't miss any unreported pregnancies)

which would also render every miscarriage either murder or manslaughter

and since approximately 10% of (detected) pregnancies miscarry

this means you'd probably want an entire division of investigators dedicated to this task

you might call them something like OFFICIAL UTERUS INSPECTORS
#44
Athias
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@3RU7AL
most women believe it should be their choice whether or not to allow a tumor to grow inside them
Except it's not a tumor, whether you can draw similarities or not.

kinda like how you probably expect to be able to tell a guest in your house to leave if they've overstayed their welcome
This point is key. A pregnant or prospective pregnant female HAS EFFECTIVE CONTROL over her womb. She does not owe the zygote/embryo/fetus her assistance in helping it develop to the point of viability. She can, as your metaphor would suggest, refuse her hospitality. If the zygote/embryo/fetus bears an entitlement to its mother's womb--legal, moral, or otherwise--then we must first establish the creation of entitlement, and the consistency of arguments in its favor.

With that said though, I do agree with TheMorningsStar that there's hypocrisy in how "pro-choice" is legislated--particularly the limitations set on how one behaves one's body.

#45
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@oromagi
which is an entirely radical new level of state intervention into the private lives of citizens.
yep
#46
3RU7AL
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@Athias
With that though, I do agree with TheMorningsStar that there's hypocrisy in how "pro-choice" is legislated--particularly the limitations set on how one behaves one's body.
please elaborate
#47
Athias
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@3RU7AL
With that though, I do agree with TheMorningsStar that there's hypocrisy in how "pro-choice" is legislated--particularly the limitations set on how one behaves one's body.
One would be the fact that there's limitations at all to the exercise of abortion. Whether it's three weeks or 35 weeks, her body is still her body.
#48
3RU7AL
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@Athias
One would be the fact that there's limitations at all to the exercise of abortion. Whether it's three weeks or 35 weeks, her body is still her body.
exactly

give them an inch and you've flushed the entire plot
#49
Athias
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@3RU7AL
exactly

give them an inch and you've flushed the entire plot
Well put.

#50
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Polytheist-Witch
If you argue against homosexuality between men because no one  here ever brings up women it's because you think a man is acting less than a man...
This (and the rest behind the ...) seem to be a melting pot of ideas considered "right wing" by people who consider themselves "left wing" over the last 50 years. It does not seem to accurately describe any position posted in this thread.

---------------------------------------------

I'll be a broken record and say this:

The most frustrating and disturbing thing about the reactions in this thread and the general reaction of the public is to immediately start talking about the ethics of abortion. While I would be normally very approving of taking moral questions head on (because they do need to be solved) there seems to be no acknowledgement at all that this ruling does not take any stance on abortion besides the objectively true stance that the Constitution of the USA does not mention or imply any rights to abortion or right to not be aborted.

The court is doing exactly what it is supposed to do.

I fully understand wanting some mythical supreme source of true justice to stomp over the legislatures, executives, and enforce a code of morality that I believe in. I've had many fantasies of such.... but in the real world even if that happened it would be civil war in three months, you can't manufacture moral consensus from on high.

The fact that this pro-life vs pro-choice thing has been going on for 50 years is proof positive of that.
#51
thett3
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@oromagi
30% of pro-lifers say that they can only vote for a candidate that shares their view on abortion, up from 15% in 2008 and compared to 19% of pro-choicers who would only vote for a candidate who shares their view. 
Yeah I misspoke, what I meant was that the people who are the most fervently pro choice are already almost exclusively hardcore democrats 

Only 40% of Republicans or just over 1 in 10 Americans believe abortion should be illegal in all cases as the Supreme Court stands poised to justify.  We are already seeing poor pregnant girls going to jail in Texas, which was almost never true before Roe.  In months, we will be seeing cases where the state forces young girls to remain pregnant to death which is an entirely radical new level of state intervention into the private lives of citizens.  By the time the election comes, some Republican states will be executing more girls for getting pregnant then men for murder.

All the Supreme Court is doing is returning the power to regulate abortion to the states. The position of the average American voter on abortion is as sensible as it is overwhelmingly supported: legal in the first trimester, illegal after that outside of extreme circumstances. If Republicans go overboard they are likely to face voter backlash. Similarly if democrats go overboard such as allowing abortion up to the point of birth or something they will also face backlash. Would this really be such a bad thing? I really don’t see it impacting the midterms at all but it will be an interesting test case. I don’t think voters care nearly as much about it as elite democrats do, and I also am not sure if losing actually galvanizes voters instead of demoralizing them. “This happened under a democrat president? What’s the point of voting…” isn’t an implausible thing to imagine happening 

#52
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They are returning it to the States because they know the States will make it illegal because the states have already done that and the states have already started putting women in jail for miscarriages. Some states are considering passing legislation that if you get pregnant in their state they own your pregnancy. Anyone can preach whatever they want to about anything this comes down to a deep-seated hatred of women having any sort of power / authority in their life beyond that of a man and men do not what women to be able to control an abortion.
#53
FLRW
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Countries and regions where abortion is illegal

Andorra
Aruba
Congo
Curaçao
Dominican Republic
Egypt
El Salvador
Haiti
Honduras
Iraq
Jamaica
Laos
Madagascar
Malta
Mauritania
Nicaragua
Palau
Philippines
San Marino
Senegal
Sierra Leone
Suriname
Tonga
West Bank & Gaza Strip

#54
thett3
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@FLRW
Countries and regions where abortion is illegal
Now do “countries and regions where abortion after the first trimester is illegal” 

That would include almost all of Europe. Americans don’t realize how liberal abortion laws in the US were everywhere until recently and how extreme Roe v Wade actually was 
#55
TheMorningsStar
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@Polytheist-Witch
If you argue against homosexuality between men because no one  here ever brings up women it's because you think a man is acting less than a man.
Oh no! I must immediately tell my boyfriend that we are being lesser men by being together! Thank you for giving me this enlightenment! I never had an issue with homosexuality, but because I am apparently guilty of wrongthink in [insert category here] that means I must also hate gays! I must immediately go lynch myself in order to express this hatred!

Then you think you should get to tell a man who feels like he has the wrong body that he can't do anything to try to live as physically as possible like a woman because it makes him less than a man.
Oh no, I express concern for people's mental health in the wrong way! How dare I! I should have realized sooner that my concern was out of some sort of bigotry towards the stereotype of what makes one a man and what makes one a woman, that is why I have spoken out against such stereotypes multiple times on this website! I must think that men that wish to become women are doing so to be less of a man and that is bigotry! I must also think that me not affirming the bulimics' view that they are fat is also some sort of bigotry I must be holding about the ideal body of people.

Then you want to tell women that they can't make decisions on what they can and can't do with their body when every day people remove clumps of living cells from their body called cancer
How dare I forget that humans=cancer! We are a cancer on this earth and must all be eliminated! Death to cancer, death to humans! There are no false analogies!

But you can continually talk about how the feminine and women are less than men in these situations but think you can say well I don't hate women
How dare I forget that people can create whatever bullshit perception of me they want and it immediately becomes reality! Since you say I hate women it must be so, and so here I am to declare that I hate women! Not because it is the rationally justified conclusion, but because the braindead one has so declared it! Hail to the braindead one! Hail to the one that brings such enlightenment!
#56
TheMorningsStar
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@3RU7AL
your unproposed alternative would be citizenship at conception
Yes, because legal protections are only ever offered to citizens, hail ye who enlightens me that no noncitizens have legal protections! Hail to thee that shows that animal rights are not a thing!

which would also render every miscarriage either murder or manslaughter
Yes, because no death ever occurs without it being murder and manslaughter. Thank you wise fool for showing me that SIDS is not ever an occurrence, that miscarriages must always be viewed in a nefarious light! Oh wise fool, let me bow down to your wisdom! That ye show that any sort of legal protection must be extended only in one particular manner that is fallaciously reasoned! I once more made the mistake of not abandoning reason in order to hold discourse, forgive me of my sins!
#57
Polytheist-Witch
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Why should anyone forgive your sins when you're willing to make a woman pay the rest of her life for having sex and getting pregnant? While you're saving for your daughter's education why not get her a miscarriage account that way if she should have one later her legal expenses will be covered. 
#58
thett3
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A poll conducted in the last few days found that Americans would favor a six week abortion ban in their state 50-46%. A fifteen week ban wins 54-41%. However 6 in 10 want to uphold Roe v. Wade, which doesn’t permit these restrictions. Color me skeptical that Americans are extremely in favor of the decision instead of just not really understanding it.

Which itself demonstrates how little pull this issue has with most people who aren’t advocates for one side or another. I don’t think this impacts the midterms at all 

#59
TheMorningsStar
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@Polytheist-Witch
Whoa is me for forgetting that no one ever is responsible for others or for their own actions, whoa is me! We must immediately get rid of neglect laws, for how dare we infringe on the rights of people, even if them doing whatever they want results in dead kids! How dare I forget that all that matters is the selfishness of the braindead! Thank you, oh braindead one, for this enlightenment! Thank you for showing me that I must abandon all reason in order to realize that the pro-life position is woman hate! Thank you for showing that we can reach the pro-choice position through braindeath! No need for logic, no need for reasoning, we must embrace the conclusions that the braindead demand is correct or else we must be haters of some kind!
#60
Polytheist-Witch
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Having worked in probation for 22 years and actually working with abused children I know the difference between an abused and neglected living child and one that isn't born yet. Another big difference never had a single person come through the office for abusing their unborn child. Know why cuz it's f****** stupid. But you keep making sure everybody has to live to your moral standard because you get to decide what everybody else gets to do with their f****** body and their f****** life . Rather be braindead than that a******. God damn Evangelical b*******.