Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.

Author: Reece101

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#241
Bones
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@imdancin
I had a miscarriage and did not know it. 
If God exists, God is the most prolific abortionist that exists. 

On another note, would you rather abort 3 embryos which have reached the blastocyst stage, (approximately five to six days after fertilization) or kill a single child
#242
imdancin
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@Bones
Bones,

"If God exists, God is the most prolific abortionist that exists. "

So you are saying God if He exists is nothing but evil. You are saying that He programs people to do evil and He is ultimately responsible. So where does your evilness fit into the equation? Because I am sure you are not perfect. Did God program you to do bad things so that you could blame Him? And if He created and acts out evil...how do you explain the good in the world? God does evil....mankind does good? 

"On another note, would you rather abort 3 embryos which have reached the blastocyst stage, (approximately five to six days after fertilization) or kill a single child" 

I can honestly say that I don't want to see any human life killed, even the tiniest in the womb . If that which is created as a living human by God for God...I can't minimize its importance because to God it's all good and His creation. 









#243
Bones
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@imdancin
"If God exists, God is the most prolific abortionist that exists. "

So you are saying God if He exists is nothing but evil. You are saying that He programs people to do evil and He is ultimately responsible. So where does your evilness fit into the equation? Because I am sure you are not perfect. Did God program you to do bad things so that you could blame Him? And if He created and acts out evil...how do you explain the good in the world? God does evil....mankind does good? 
All I said was that if God exists, then he is the most prolific abortionist. This is because 
  1. Miscarriage is the instance in which a pregnancy has failed and thereby caused the death of a baby. 
  2. Miscarriage is a natural occurrence. 
  3. "God constructed nature" 
  4. Therefore when I say that God is a prolific abortionist, I mean that by his creation, millions of babies die. 
"On another note, would you rather abort 3 embryos which have reached the blastocyst stage, (approximately five to six days after fertilization) or kill a single child" 

I can honestly say that I don't want to see any human life killed, even the tiniest in the womb . If that which is created as a living human by God for God...I can't minimize its importance because to God it's all good and His creation. 
I don't want to see any human lives killed either but that is the point of the conundrum. Would you pick for 3 embryos at the blastocyst stage, or a child. 
#244
imdancin
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@Bones
All I said was that if God exists, then he is the most prolific abortionist. This is because 
  1. Miscarriage is the instance in which a pregnancy has failed and thereby caused the death of a baby. 
  2. Miscarriage is a natural occurrence. 
  3. "God constructed nature" 
  4. Therefore when I say that God is a prolific abortionist, I mean that by his creation, millions of babies die. 


When God created the world and mankind He said it was VERY good. There was no evil. He did not create puppets but a man and woman with free will. They had everything…food, shelter, freedom to do anything they wanted but one thing…eat of the fruit of the tree. They sinned…and fell out of grace. With that came punishment and the world changed…not because of God but because of their sin. Mankind creates evil, God does not, but He allows it. You seem to give mankind a free pass and lay all the blame on God. 

Evil has been in the heart of every human since Adam and Eve’s fall.God is not an abortionist, but He would be against it.

Go does not cause abortion….


‘“ don't want to see any human lives killed either but that is the point of the conundrum. Would you pick for 3 embryos at the blastocyst stage, or a child. “

Which life would you save, your 8 year old or your 5 year old? Which one deserves life more? How about your child with handicap or your child with no handicap?

#245
Bones
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@imdancin
So (millions of) miscarriages happens because Adam ate the apple from the Forbidden Tree? 

Which life would you save, your 8 year old or your 5 year old? Which one deserves life more? How about your child with handicap or your child with no handicap?
If you look at my past debates you will see that I argue in favour of pro-life, but you must admit that the saving of literal cells over a child is very odd. There is quantifiable suffering which can be inflicted upon the child whilst the cells will feel nothing. 
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#246
Reece101
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@imdancin
 I have had medical issues lately, breast cancer and have had a lot of time at home during recovery. Thought sharing and debating online would be fun since I have the time. I have not been posting that long and am still confused about how the site works.  
Hope your treatment went well. I’d be happy to answer any questions you have about DDO.

Do you see the quotation marks under “Text” with all the symbols up above, when editing/typing? You create a quotation box by clicking it.
And then you can copy and paste what you want to quote. 

I think you would be surprised at the low level of knowledge a lot of woman have about their own reproductive system, also fetal development. I worked at my states Right to Life office and when we went out to do educational events, Womans Expos, conventions etc…I was shocked.
I know a lot of women aren’t as informed about their body as they should be. Especially young women when to comes to puberty. No fault of their own of course. Parents are probably too embarrassed to talk about it. So are you for sex education in school? Appropriate lessons for appropriate ages.

Getting pregnant is damage if an abortion happens. Most pro-choicers think their position is pro-life even if they say they are opposed to abortion, but still want it legal. I have talked to hundreds upon hundreds of women like myself who have gotten abortions. Rarely do I meet anyone that is happy they did it. Younger women are more defensive and take the “in your face” attitude. I have only been in two confrontations with a woman one at an abortion clinic, and one at a booth at our state fair.
Yeah it figures. It doesn’t surprise me. 

I don’t ignore any arguments. Bring anything up, I will try to give an answer. I will say this. When I am out in the field doing something concerning abortion, I argue from a scientific view…not religious. Why? Because I respect peoples right to believe religiously what they want. If they are Christian, then I can show the scripture side of the issue. Other wise I have a lot of valid medical information to give out. If can send it your way if you would like to read it.   
In the bible there’s something called bitter water. Do you know of it? 

So she should be able (because she is the mother)….kill her unborn up until the natural gestational age of the unborn? If you tell a woman she has a time limit…then aren’t you taking her rights, her ownership away? So you make a scale as to what unborn deserves life and who doesn’t based on their health. Do you feel that way about kids who are mentally, physically handicapped after they are born? 
If the fetus is viable outside womb a lot more grey areas pop up. As the data shows most women don’t want late term abortions. 

Kids that get handicapped after they’re born? If they’re not in a prolonged coma a person shouldn’t have a right to end their life. Would you consider being in a coma handicapped? 

Heres the thing, correct me if I am wrong. You say that abortions should be rarer…further along. Why? Is abortion wrong on some level? And if it’s wrong, why do you condone it? You said…”It’s up to the mother.” Then why should anyone have a say…? Kill unborn children at any time and for any reason. You tell her no…and you are imposing your morality on her. Right?
That’s my opinion which lines up with how most women feel. I’m not going to force a woman through pregnancy and cut it out of her after she’s been put to sleep. That’s dystopian. What will happen with all the kids in foster homes and mothers that didn’t want them?


#247
Polytheist-Witch
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@Lemming
That's why nobody says in jail waiting trial. They're innocent until guilty. Lol
#248
Polytheist-Witch
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@Bones
Not only that millions of miscarriages happen to people who were never part of the original club that the god worked with so because the Jews had a God that decided that it was okay to kill babies everybody has to lose their babies whether they're a Jew or not.
#249
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
I thought we supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, in this country?
that's a lie

if you are accused of a "serious crime" you are incarcerated

BEFORE your trial
#250
3RU7AL
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@Bones
On another note, would you rather abort 3 embryos which have reached the blastocyst stage, (approximately five to six days after fertilization) or kill a single child
a better illustration is the question,

if you were in a burning building and could only save (EITHER) two newborn babies (OR) 300,000 frozen embryos 

which would you choose ??
#251
Lemming
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@3RU7AL
I think there's an argument for innocent until proven guilty,

And even if one is taken into custody, that doesn't necessarily mean they are guilty,
Seeing on how they are going to have a trial?

Also, I'm not sure it's most common policy to arrest people, without having acquired evidence and just reason to believe they are guilty?
#252
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
Also, I'm not sure it's most common policy to arrest people, without having acquired evidence and just reason to believe they are guilty?
many people are held for months, lose their jobs, and then just before the trial date, their charges are dropped
#253
Lemming
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@3RU7AL
Is this what people want and 'expect of the system in it's ideal form though?
#254
ebuc
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@imdancin
So she should be able (because she is the mother)….kill her unborn up until the natural gestational age of the unborn?

1} why your going to confront pregnant women at abortion clinics ---is virtual rape--  is insanity and creates insanity for those who work there and going for an abortion for starters,

2} yes she is the pregnant woman and mother to be, once the fetus/baby is born-out. Until the umbilical cord is cut and now independent baby takes its first inspirited breath, the mother is the only ethically moral person who gets to decided, if she or others are allowed to assist the baby in getting its first inspirited breath,

3} others are there to assist the pregnant woman  >>> mother and her wishes, nothing else.  She will have to deal with her choices more than anyone else, so others should follow the first rule of medical response, do know harm, and this case do know harm to the mothers by obstructing her choices of how to respond to the babies needs.


#255
ebuc
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@imdancin
Anyone can try to kill their child in any sort of way. That has been happening since the beginning of time.

And in poor country areas globally, women over 1000s of years, have no way to abort, so the only way is to wait to baby i born-out, and then make choice to aid in it continuance or not. Tough choices that only the woman should be allowed to make.
#256
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
Is this what people want and 'expect of the system in it's ideal form though?
many if not most people think "better safe than sorry" and would rather incarcerate a "few" innocent citizens if that makes them feel more confident that "100%" of criminals are "locked-up"
#257
imdancin
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@Reece101

“Hope your treatment went well. I’d be happy to answer any questions you have about DDO.”

I rang the bell this past Tuesday !!! A long road, but they got it early. God will use my life in whatever which way He wants to use it. I give Him all the glory.

What is DDO?

“Do you see the quotation marks under “Text” with all the symbols up above, when editing/typing? You create a quotation box by clicking it. 
And then you can copy and paste what you want to quote.”

I am not sure where you are talking about. Do you hit reply first? Thanks for your help, I need it. :)


“Parents are probably too embarrassed to talk about it. So are you for sex education in school? Appropriate lessons for appropriate ages.”

I totally agree. Sex ed coming from parents is the ideal way it should be taught. Most the time that will not happen. I think age appropriate sex education is important and the best place probably is in schools. Along with that they should teach about reproduction, fetal development and what abortion is. Kids should know what actually happens when an abortion is performed. 

Oh yes, bitter water happened many times throughout Biblical times.

“If the fetus is viable outside womb a lot more grey areas pop up. As the data shows most women don’t want late term abortions. 

Kids that get handicapped after they’re born? If they’re not in a prolonged coma a person shouldn’t have a right to end their life. Would you consider being in a coma handicapped?”

I don’t see gray. You either give the unborn personhood or not. And even though the unborn might be pinhead small…it doesn’t change the facts scientifically or especially in Gods eyes. I do understand what you are talking about. And I agree most women don’t want late term abortions. But, based on what society says today…a woman owns her body and should be able to make the choices concerning it. Maybe somewhere in her warped sense of morality she does want one. She should be allowed to get it, right? If she is denied then another persons sense of morality is imposed on her and she loses the rights to her body. 

“That’s my opinion which lines up with how most women feel. I’m not going to force a woman through pregnancy and cut it out of her after she’s been put to sleep. That’s dystopian. What will happen with all the kids in foster homes and mothers that didn’t want them?”

How do you know what most women feel? Force a woman? She is the one who got herself pregnant. We are already a society with no sense of morality, because God for the masses doesn’t exist. People don’t want to be told what to do, or what is right and wrong. “So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies.” What’s going on today was predicted in scriptures. Our foundations are crumbling. “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” I live by Gods standards..not the Worlds.

Handicapped children/adoptive children are not social liabilities. On the other hand and smart/normal people are not always social assets. I love what Randy Alcorn has to say. “” Exploiting people and stripping them of their rights is always easier when we tell ourselves we’re doing it for THEIR good rather than our own.”

It all boils down to choice and like you have pointed out…the freedom to choose which is pretty vague. 
All violations of human rights have been defended on the grounds of the right to choose. I ask you…what should we have the freedom to choose?

It is dangerous when people in power are free to determine whether other, less powerful lives are meaningful. 

#258
3RU7AL
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@imdancin
or especially in Gods eyes.
Exodus 21:22 is, however, a part of the Bible that actually does mention the fetus. “When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”

This is fascinating because it outlines specific punishments for specific crimes. If a woman is hurt in a struggle and then has a miscarriage, the penalty is a fine, a mere financial payment. But, if there is further harm, likely meaning the woman has long-term and serious injuries or even dies, then the culprit could be killed. In other words, the life and well-being of the woman, the mother, is of much greater significance than those of her unborn child.

also notice the "payment" is determined by and is paid to the father
#259
Lemming
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@3RU7AL
An arrest 'still isn't the same as a conviction,
Though certainly the system 'ought work that people aren't arrested without due cause,
Or these arrests cause them to lose their jobs,

And what happens if the mother miscarries? - imdancin

she has to prove she did everything she could to preserve and prioritize the life of the baby - 3RU7AL
I don't think she would have to prove she did everything she could to preserve and prioritize the life of the baby,
The state would have to prove that she intentionally or through gross carelessness caused the babies death,

And even then, that's only if/when such a law exists.

I'm not saying I'd pass such a law myself,
But it makes me uneasy to vote for a law that makes abortion a trivial matter,
Pro Life doesn't mean 'no abortions at all, given that exceptions have already been remarked upon,
But Pro Lifer's can't treat abortion as 'nothing, as 'some, not all Pro Choicers seem to.

#260
imdancin
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@ebuc
“1} why your going to confront pregnant women at abortion clinics ---is virtual rape--  is insanity and creates insanity for those who work there and going for an abortion for starters,

2} yes she is the pregnant woman and mother to be, once the fetus/baby is born-out. Until the umbilical cord is cut and now independent baby takes its first inspirited breath, the mother is the only ethically moral person who gets to decided, if she or others are allowed to assist the baby in getting its first inspirited breath,

3} others are there to assist the pregnant woman  >>> mother and her wishes, nothing else.  She will have to deal with her choices more than anyone else, so others should follow the first rule of medical response, do know harm, and this case do know harm to the mothers by obstructing her choices of how to respond to the babies needs.”

Point 1…….We don’t confront anyone by yelling, screaming. Most groups go to pray. We abide by the law concerning restrictions, where to stand etc. We have the right as Americans to picket, protest. The fact that we are anti-abortion should not matter as other groups in our country are very free to be seen and heard. If our presence halts one abortion that happens on the days we go…everything is worth it. The insanity happens not on the outside of the clinic but on the inside, when the unborn is ripped, cut, burnt out of the womb…alive, no pain medicine. And you have the gall to say we are violent? LOL

Point 2….Mother to be? No at the moment of fertilization the woman becomes a mother. That which she help create is not a part of her, it is a separate human being with its own DNA, fingerprints, organs, circulatory system etc. So you say the mother should be able to kill her child because she is ethical and moral. So she has the right to kill it up until the unborn natural delivery…wow. 

Point 3….Others are there to kill the unborn. The person that drove her to the abortion mill, the receptionist or office staff that takes the money, the nurses who help get her ready and the doctor who carries the killing out. 
Do no harm?????? LMAO  Just brutally kill the unborn inside the womb.   
#261
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
Pro Life doesn't mean 'no abortions at all, given that exceptions have already been remarked upon,
the people currently in positions of power are in the camp of "ABORTION = MURDER"

there is no middle ground here

this actually makes IUD birth control devices = murder machines (since they don't inhibit conception)

i know accusing women who have miscarried of "manslaughter" or "murder" seems absurd

but it is already happening in the united states


Jan 16, 2022 — The Comanche County District Attorney charged Emily Akers, 22, with first-degree manslaughter in March 2020, 10 months after she had
#262
Lemming
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@3RU7AL
Well, I'm unwilling to go for the Pro Choice stance, as a number of people on this site seem to be insisting it ought be,
Where they refuse to say killing a baby moments before birth, or after birth is wrong, for convenience,
Because they say it hardly ever happens,

There is middle ground, and I'd be willing to meet there, even though there 'still leaves me uncomfortable,

But to go 'all the way to Pro Choice, I'll not,
So I'd rather stick with the ground that I think moral,
Being the Pro Life camp,
#263
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
There is middle ground, and I'd be willing to meet there, even though there 'still leaves me uncomfortable,
the status quo under roe v. wade was, "no restrictions on abortion in the first three months, some restrictions in the first six months, and lots of restrictions in the last three months"
#264
Lemming
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@3RU7AL
Why not explain to Pro Lifer's why Roe v. Wade is not against their beliefs then?
Or 'is it against their beliefs in some ways?
#265
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
Why not explain to Pro Lifer's why Roe v. Wade is not against their beliefs then?
Or 'is it against their beliefs in some ways?
the principle here is SELF-OWNERSHIP (AND) MEDICAL PRIVACY

what happens inside a woman's body is ONLY her own business

the fact that women are being charged and convicted of manslaughter for miscarriages is absurd

if you were fleeing a burning building and you had the choice to rescue two newborn infants (OR) 300,000 frozen embryos, which would you choose ?
#266
Lemming
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@3RU7AL
Rights and values are not absolute,
Because they lean on other rights and values,

I don't know,
I might choose the infants as they 'seem more real,
Or I might burn alive, frozen by indecision.

2 adults, or 300,000 children.
The children.

2 children, or 300,000 babies.
The babies.

2 babies or 300,000 fetuses.
The fetuses.

2 fetuses, or 300,000 embryos.
. . .
If it is certain that the embryos 'will grow up into adults,
The embryos.



#267
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
If it is certain that the embryos 'will grow up into adults,
nothing is certain

the overwhelming majority of frozen embryos are never implanted
#268
Lemming
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@3RU7AL
Maybe we shouldn't freeze embryos.
#269
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
Maybe we shouldn't freeze embryos.
well, it's either freeze them or dump them in the trash
#270
Lemming
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@3RU7AL
Why do/would embryo exist in such quantity?

an unborn or unhatched offspring in the process of development, in particular a human offspring during the period from approximately the second to the eighth week after fertilization (after which it is usually termed a fetus).
Definitions from Oxford Languages