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@RationalMadman
Inherent as opposed to acquired.
I'm surprised by your confusion.
Is it possible to oppose transgenderism as a solution to gender dysphoria and not be 'transphobic'?
Posts
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@zedvictor4
Inherent to what? Acquired from what?
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@RationalMadman
Well, given the subject matter, I clearly wasn't referring to baked beans and sausages was I?
Loathing....From where does loathing emanate?....Genes or conditioning.
The issue with transgenderism seems to be the same issues with homosexuality. Nobody's talking about women transitioning to men you're talking about men transitioning to women. Just like whenever homosexually comes up it's always talking about men on men and not women on women. This is basically a problem men have with other men. And they can talk about the children all they want to this has to do with men not liking men being something other than what they consider a man. Swinging dick club strikes again.
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@RationalMadman
Not at all. It enables the hellish dysphoria's hold on them with an iron vice grip. They now learn they were right to hate their body and sex.
Source? I'll give you a dozen that shows the contrary.
Extrapolate all.functionally equal treatments given to people with similar bodily dysphoric mental disorders; the anorexic, the bulimic, the 'I am so ugly I should cut myself and die' depressed/BPD'.Then, mixing instead meds and therapies for them, tweak it towards helping the dysphoric person learn the real difference between sex and gender and do not let them fall victim to conflating the two. They should love their sex, be as a feminine a male and as masculine a female as they naturally are.
When you can show me the peer-reviewed, scientifically sound studies that shows your method outweighs the current methods of treating gender dysphoria, then we can have a conversation.
You seem to like to draw this comparison between anorexics, suicidal people, and transgender people. I was both anorexic and suicidal once, both before my transition began. The difference here is that anorexia and suicide both not only have the potential to kill you, but the logical conclusion of both does not lead to happiness. On the contrary, transitioning has an incredibly low rate of regret, greatly increases quality of life, and significantly reduces the chance that a trans person will commit suicide or suffer from depression.
1. "Patients Report High Satisfaction with Sex-Reassignment Surgery" https://www.issm.info/news/sex-health-headlines/patients-report-high-satisfaction-with-sex-reassignment-surgery/
2. "Trends in suicide death risk in transgender people: results from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria study (1972–2017)" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/
3. "Psychosocial Adjustment to Sex Reassignment Surgery: A Qualitative Examination and Personal Experiences of Six Transsexual Persons in Croatia" https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/960745/
4. "Long-Term Follow-Up of Adults with Gender Identity Disorder" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5
5. "Long-term Assessment of the Physical, Mental, and Sexual Health among Transsexual Women" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_Women
6. "What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? " https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
7. "Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal" https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm
8. "Mental health and gender dysphoria: A review of the literature" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26835611/
9. "Sex-reassignment surgery yields long-term mental health benefits, study finds" https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/sex-reassignment-surgery-yields-long-term-mental-health-benefits-study-n1079911
10. "Transgender surgery can improve life for most, study confirms" https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321258
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@Nyxified
Not at all. It enables the hellish dysphoria's hold on them with an iron vice grip. They now learn they were right to hate their body and sex.Source? I'll give you a dozen that shows the contrary.
I am not saying this to demean you but it is so obvious that barely any source has even mentioned or investigated it. If you encourage a person who loathes their male or female body to artificially mimic the opposite sex (not gender, sorry but it is sexual characteristics and hormones), they end up concluding that they were correct to have hated their original body.
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@Nyxified
When you can show me the peer-reviewed, scientifically sound studies that shows your method outweighs the current methods of treating gender dysphoria, then we can have a conversation.
Sure, show me it being done, I am not aware of it being done on a large scale and when it is done it is totally confidential and not measured officially. This is not me making an unfair excuse, it is a valid excuse as I cannot provide data on a methodology that has been cancelled before it could arise and evolve.
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@Nyxified
You seem to like to draw this comparison between anorexics, suicidal people, and transgender people. I was both anorexic and suicidal once, both before my transition began.
I am not your psychiatrist or able to respond to something this sensitive without risking personally triggering and hurting you, emotionally. I will not engage in your personal struggle here because I cannot possibly avoid risk of accidentally bullying you as you will be very sensitive about it. I also am not sure how physical your transition is, it is the physical one my gripe is most ardent with.
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@Nyxified
The difference here is that anorexia and suicide both not only have the potential to kill you, but the logical conclusion of both does not lead to happiness.
Very solid point. What happens is that when it is continually proven that enabling the dysphoria ends in significant rates of sadness, anxiety and other mentally distressing tendencies and/or disorders, the trans community deflects this as being due to transphobic bullying and attitudes, never to the trans person's therapy and recommendation to transition having been insufficiently treated and understood.
Furthermore, often they suffer but not quite as bad as before as they often get simultaneously prescribed meds and therapies for their other mental conditions at the same time as the transition is recommended. This means the rates of dissatisfaction would be much worse if we had a control group that did not transition to compare the group that did to (with other treatments being either identical or very similar).
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@zedvictor4
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Please be exact.
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@TheMorningsStar
And once again we see non-affirming therapies for gender dysphoria compared to conversion therapies for sexual orientation when that is one of the clearest false analogies in existence. Why does the pro-affirmation crowd insist on making this comparison when it is so clearly false? My guess is because it makes it easier to criticize non-affirming therapies when they have no actual evidence to support their BS views.
I find it hilarious you say this and then don't mention a single non-conversion therapy, non-affirming alternative. I find it even funnier that you think I'm implying all non-affirming treatments for gender dysphoria are conversion therapy even though I didn't say that, I just specified non-conversion therapy when challenging RMM for an alternative.
I'm just gonna link this here, since we have 'no actual evidence.' If you wanna talk about if a trans person can become the sex they identify as, that's a debate I'm happy to have as well! Claiming we have no evidence and I'm basing my views off of nothing is blatantly disingenuous and is more 'BS' than anything I can do.
You don't compare a body dysphoria to a sexual orientation, you compare it to other body dysphorias. When you do that... oh, wow, would you look at that. In other body dysphorias non-affirmation is the norm? Who would have guessed! So, when you actually compare it to something appropriate the opposite conclusion is reached? Really makes me feel more strongly that the reason it constantly gets compared to sexual orientation is done for dishonest reasons.
Let's take anorexia as an example: during recovery, an anorexic is not affirmed in their desire to starve themselves to death to be skinny, but that does not necessarily mean that they are wrong in their desire to lose weight; the problem is that they are taking it to an extreme. Often times a part of anorexia recovery is shifting the perspective from losing weight to being healthier and changing their approach from an extreme that will never lead to happiness or health to a moderate approach to exercise and health that will improve quality of life.
All other body dysphoria's are treated in a certain way? Cool. That doesn't matter if it doesn't work for gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is evidently different in the sense that anorexia and body dysmorphia stem from entirely different feelings: the desire for control, the feeling that something about oneself is bad, and the belief that one is not physically attractive. Gender dysphoria has nothing to do with thinking one's body is unattractive and everything to do with feeling their physical characteristics do not represent their identity. Trans people don't believe that being a man or a woman is bad, they just don't personally want to be one.
Affirming body-dysmorphia or anorexia leads to people dying and/or hating themselves. There's no positive outcome because they will always want to lose more weight or look differently. Both of these disorders have nothing to do with one's identity. Affirming gender dysphoria through transgenderism does lead to positive outcomes and is an amazing way of preventing people from committing suicide and an even better way of making people love their bodies as is proved in the sources of the link I proved above.
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@zedvictor4
Unless you mean a rare case of emotionally abusive mothers and fathers that raised their child to be the other gender than they are (yes this really has happened), I doubt it is conditioning. It is primarily genetics meeting hormones and certain attitudes and ideas in one's life.
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@RationalMadman
I am not saying this to demean you but it is so obvious that barely any source has even mentioned or investigated it. If you encourage a person who loathes their male or female body to artificially mimic the opposite sex (not gender, sorry but it is sexual characteristics and hormones), they end up concluding that they were correct to have hated their original body.
Sure, but if you don't have any scientific evidence for this, then I have no reason to believe you.
I am not your psychiatrist or able to respond to something this sensitive without risking personally triggering and hurting you, emotionally. I will not engage in your personal struggle here because I cannot possibly avoid risk of accidentally bullying you as you will be very sensitive about it. I also am not sure how physical your transition is, it is the physical one my gripe is most ardent with.
I appreciate your concern, and I'm not saying that sarcastically. It's rare that people will tread lightly regarding sensitive topics, so I commend you for that! Nonetheless, you don't have to worry with me. It's not something that bothers me to discuss.
Very solid point. What happens is that when it is continually proven that enabling the dysphoria ends in significant rates of sadness, anxiety and other mentally distressing tendencies and/or disorders, the trans community deflects this as being due to transphobic bullying and attitudes, never to the trans person's therapy and recommendation to transition having been insufficiently treated and understood.
I apologize, but I don't particularly understand what this means. Again, I have to ask for a source since I've given you 10 of them that shows transgenderism does the opposite of what you're saying it does. There's nothing we have to deflect, the statistics of pre-transition and post-transition happiness speak for themselves.
Furthermore, often they suffer but not quite as bad as before as they often get simultaneously prescribed meds and therapies for their other mental conditions at the same time as the transition is recommended. This means the rates of dissatisfaction would be much worse if we had a control group that did not transition to compare the group that did to (with other treatments being either identical or very similar).
I don't necessarily think this is true, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that if this is the case, then yes, that's a bad idea. There's a reason WPATH guidelines for transition surgery require that there are no other mental conditions that adequately explain one's gender dysphoria and are not properly treated before they undergo said surgery. I am skeptical of this being the case because it's the philosophy that every psychiatrist should follow, and I'd need to see evidence before I could seriously consider that this is a problem. This did not happen in my case, at least.
Regarding rates of dissatisfaction, well, again I need a source. I can't just take your word based off your own intuitions and beliefs in the face of all the evidence that shows people who start to transition, regardless of their circumstances, age, race, medical history, mental illnesses, etc... are happier and have better life outcomes after their transition than they did before their transition.
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@Nyxified
Erm... What scientific reason could there be for that first part? It is pure logic of the hate vs result.
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@Nyxified
I misworded something. I meant I think the dissatisfaction would be worse if we had a group that only transitioned and didnt get simulatenously treated for the other things and on top had a control group that didnt transition to then compare both to and see how much the transition factors.
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@Nyxified
This means the rates of dissatisfaction would be much worse if we had a control group that did not transition to compare the group that did to (with other treatments being either identical or very similar).
This was completely misworded by me please see above post.
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@RationalMadman
Primarily genetics and hormones...And attitudes and ideas.
So genetic inheritance coupled with acquired information.
I couldn't disagree....As I don't know if a loathing gene as ever been identified.
And hormonal effects, not necessarily inherent, but maybe also environmental....I can also run with that idea.
I have often suggested that environmental factors might influence the current era of trans-trending.
26 days later
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@RationalMadman
You don't have two arguments you have speculation and a weirdly confident first premise.
Sex is a state of multiple biological factors convening, some of which have affects on gender, such as: hormones, chromosomes, etc.. How you might ask? Couple reasons, whenever your brain identifies your gender as separate from the typical biological state of sex a couple of things happen. Your brain becomes more stressed with the dichotomy, your body is forced to deal with that increased stress, thereby making other symptoms worse. Considering that whenever people are considered others they are treated harsher this all compounds.
In other words, you'd get stressed as shit when you have a penis (which in social context is usually associated with boy-ness) but your brain tells you that your experience is female. So then, transition is an attempt to stem that "stress" which is a simplified term for what you might better know as dysphoria. The biggest difference is the categorically dehumanizing position it puts them in socially and the degree of stress. This can complicate the precise medical or psychological route to helping these people feel not horrible all the time.
For example, there is a difference in treating general anxiety disorder and OCD specifically, why is this? Even though the share a bunch of common symptoms they coagulate in different ways. General Anxiety is (generally) a feeling of stress, paranoia or (anxiety) caused by something which is not proportionate with the actual impact of the effect. Conversely, OCD refers to the compulsions we have whenever some of these events can occur (not all who have compulsions while in anxiety have OCD, its mostly for people who cannot control such things).
Thusly, the way we treat these two issues are vastly different due to the specifics in the case: General Anxiety deals in a lot of coping strategy, learning to realize that the impact of the event is not as we perceived and learn how to function while we figure this out, OCD is treated through habituation and exposure, as it attempts to stop the compulsions which can become progressively more time consuming and anxiety inducing as you do it more. So... what is this all to say? That's simple, comparing gender dysphoria to dysphoria of body image is simply... ignorant. Like comparing phyto-estrogen to actual estrogen because they share the same name you see?
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@Theweakeredge
That's simple, comparing gender dysphoria to dysphoria of body image is simply... ignorant
No, what you are doing is ignorant. You are ignoring blatant parallels and begging psychiatrists to keep looking away from them due to pressure to conform.
Your experience in life is not male or female, it is masculine or feminine perhaps. Feminine males are male, masculine females are female and if they feel they need to down hormones and disfigure their body to mimic the other sex's physical characteristics, it is not accurate to call it transgenderism, it is the so-called transphobic term 'transsexuality" (which humans cannot physically achieve but that is a given).
Your experience in life is not male or female, it is masculine or feminine perhaps
What a complete and utter lie. Women females from a very early age are taught how to watch their back, protect themselves, look for people when they approach their car, all kinds of ways to keep from getting raped that has nothing to do with being feminine it has to do with being female. Then there's the whole physical aspect of being a woman that's going to eventually menstruate you have to be educated on that. Then there's being educated on female birth control. Then there's the idea of abortion which plenty of men are going to tell you shouldn't even have a right to. Then there's things like pregnancy, mammograms and pap smears. And men have their very own distinct issues especially regarding health.
What a complete and utter lie. Women females from a very early age are taught how to watch their back, protect themselves, look for people when they approach their car, all kinds of ways to keep from getting raped that has nothing to do with being feminine it has to do with being female.
Okay, I am sure this is what theweakeredge meant by a boy experiencing a female life. Spot on analysis.
Then there's the whole physical aspect of being a woman that's going to eventually menstruate you have to be educated on that. Then there's being educated on female birth control. Then there's the idea of abortion which plenty of men are going to tell you shouldn't even have a right to. Then there's things like pregnancy, mammograms and pap smears. And men have their very own distinct issues especially regarding health.
Oh right, that is certainly what theweakeredge meant by male-sex individuals having a female experience of life.
I wasn't addressing his post I was addressing yours cuz you were being the idiot. Feeling like you are a woman in a man's body has to be very disturbing and while they may not have some of the same physical concerns that women have they certainly have psychological concerns. And I'll tell you this right now if you can't be anti-homosexual without being homophobic you can't be anti-trans without being transphobic and you sir are one of the most transphobic people on this website.
I think you will find that your moral grandstanding falls short once trans people read your cisnormative depiction of womanhood and a female experience of life.
You can fight my stance as you want, in the end your greater enemy is the very person you thought you were defending.
I don't have to do anything but pay taxes and die the fact is you're a transphobe you don't think you should be called a transphobe but you are so have fun with that.
So you are calling somebody something they do not consent to and are not according to themselves, intentionally in order to hurt their feelings.
That is basically the definition of bullying in one way, in another it is ironic as that is what transphobes to to trans people via pronouns.
You have had no problem calling people homophobes for being anti-homosexual you are a transphobe for being anti-trans. You don't get to have it one way for a group you don't like and another way for you. I'm not bullying you you're the one coming here and talking about how you have a problem with them as a whole group of people. If you don't want people calling you transfer don't sit and talk about trans. I don't want people call me out for being antiatheist then I wouldn't come here and talk about how I don't like atheists. But you don't get to sit there and talk about how you can't stand trans people and then get upset when you're called a transphobe
That is basically the definition of bullying in one way, in another it is ironic as that is what transphobes to to trans people via pronouns.
You can dislike or disapprove of something without being afraid of it. Phobias should be reserved for actual fears.
Nobody calls women uglyphobes for not accepting a date.
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@Theweakeredge
Couple reasons, whenever your brain identifies your gender as separate from the typical biological state of sex a couple of things happen. Your brain becomes more stressed with the dichotomy, your body is forced to deal with that increased stress, thereby making other symptoms worse. Considering that whenever people are considered others they are treated harsher this all compounds.
What distinguishes mind and body in the context of gender? How is it possible to be a “female mind” in a “male body” or vice versa… Is the brain not a part of the body, which should be viewed as a whole, rather than an entity distinct from the body? What makes a mind “male” or “female”?
It’s weird seeing so many secular materialists lean in fully to mind body dualism on this issue alone. A preexisting soul (or mind), distinct from the body, can be male or female in character and can somehow wind up in the “wrong” body. The evidence that we for all practical purposes are our bodies seems a lot stronger
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@thett3
People forget that the brain and genitals are both bodily organs.