Is it possible to oppose transgenderism as a solution to gender dysphoria and not be 'transphobic'?

Author: RationalMadman
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#1
RationalMadman
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I don't quite know. I am curious.

At this point, I am not sure how to ever present my stance irl or even online outside of here without trans people taking it totally wrong.

My stance is as follows:

  1. Sex =/= gender, sex is physical and gender is sociological or even psychological
  2. When 'transitioning gender' one is actually transitioning the characteristics of their physical body (HRT and operation). That is mimicking the sex, not the gender of the one they want to mimic. To mimic the gender, they'd only need to mimic haircuts, clothing, ways of talking and acting as well as hobbies and interests  associated with the other gender.
  3. If both the previous arguments are simulatenously true, one has to wonder what is at the root of transgenderism. Is it feminine males and masculine females or is it more so loathing of one's body they were born into? It follows that we'd only want to enable the former, not the self-loathing latter. We would not give artificial hormones to enable an anorexic to remain less hungry and happy, we would not try to help a depressed person enable their sad, hermitic and toxic lifestyle of social withdrawal and poor health... So on and so forth. Why then would we allow a person who wants to mimic the sex, not gender, they fancy having and enable their self-loathing of their natural, healthy body rather than treat the psychiatric condition that is their hatred and dysphoria?
I don't get it. I can't get it. I am forced to zip my mouth in order to blend in with the left wing of this modern generation. It is so horrible because I am so proudly left-wing in basically all other ways.

#2
TheMorningsStar
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I will tell you this straight up, the trans-rights community has shown me nothing but disdain in most forums because I promote non-affirming therapies while having gender dysphoria myself. People that DE-transition or seek non-affirming therapies get talked down to, ridiculed, etc. in a lot of these forums. As such, it is clear that, based on the terms set by this movement, if you oppose transgenderism as a solution you are transphobic. Honestly, I feel like the term has lost all meaning based on how it is used.
#3
Reece101
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@TheMorningsStar
Could you explain your gender dysphoria? Is it beyond just crossdressing?
Although I’m no psychologist. 

#4
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@Reece101
Could you explain your gender dysphoria?
What's to explain, its gender dysphoria.
I feel like I was born in the wrong body with a strong desire to be a woman.
When I imagine my ideal self it is always female.
Etc.

Is it beyond just crossdressing?
I have stated I do non-affirming therapy, why would I crossdress?
#5
Reece101
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@TheMorningsStar
What's to explain, its gender dysphoria.
I feel like I was born in the wrong body with a strong desire to be a woman.
When I imagine my ideal self it is always female.
Etc.
It must be hard to fight against it. Do you find any behaviours slipping through? 

I have stated I do non-affirming therapy, why would I crossdress?
I should have said the desire to crossdress. No need to become defensive. 
#6
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@Reece101
It must be hard to fight against it.
It was when I first started therapy, but it isn't that difficult anymore. I have pretty much learned to live with it. Just as the second-wave feminists pushed the idea that there were multiple ways one can choose to live as a woman and still be equally valid as a woman, so to are there multiple ways to one can live as a man. Sure, some of my behaviors might more seen as more 'effeminate', but those actions are, in reality, not feminine or masculine and to label them as such would require some level of sexist attitude.

Do you find any behaviours slipping through?
Depends on what you mean by 'behaviors'.
This is, as I have grown to learn, very sexist thinking. It is predicated on the idea that to be a man or to be a woman means you must fall under a particular stereotype of what is meant to be a man or woman.
#7
ADreamOfLiberty
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You can let someone else define all the terms, but if they do that does not mean their moral conflations are applicable. If they define walking as genocide then they have to prove genocide is bad, it's equivocation to transfer the moral pre-calculations made before a term changed definitions.

If transphobia is defined as disapproval of gender reassignment procedures then it cannot be taken for granted that it is bad.
#8
Reece101
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@TheMorningsStar
Your non-affirming therapy includes not to label typical behaviours associated with femininity and masculinity? Based. 

#9
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@Reece101
Your non-affirming therapy includes not to label typical behaviours associated with femininity and masculinity? Based. 
For the most part, yes.
If you personally struggle to separate certain behaviors then it is recommended (at least, early on in therapy) that you do not engage in them as it can cause your dysphoria to become more prominent, leading to increase in depression and anxiety, but you ultimately have to come to terms that many of the things society labels as masculine or feminine aren't actually masculine or feminine.

There is a lot of looking throughout history to see certain traits that society today considers feminine were prominent in men throughout history in order to help dispel the idea that said actions are actually feminine, and there is some look at the argumentation from second-wave feminists and mirroring it for the male perspective. There are other aspects as well that focus more on how you view your body and how you relate to it, but I really don't want to get too into it here.

This doesn't mean there aren't still some actions, behaviors, etc. that you will view as feminine or masculine, but there will be much less. Once you have been in therapy long enough to get comfortable (enough) with your body's sex and have understood that many of these traits that are seen as feminine or masculine aren't gendered at all you hopefully learn that no one's behavior falls strictly into the stereotype and thus it becomes easier for you to do things you still perceive as 'feminine' or 'masculine' without it causing you to think you are any more/less a man/woman for such behaviors.

I mean, I am trying to summarize a long process of therapy into just a couple paragraphs, but I hope the point is gotten across.
#10
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@TheMorningsStar
Do you go by male or female pronouns? 

#11
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@Reece101
Male pronouns.
Part of non-affirming therapy is to accept both who you are and what reality is, not to let your self-image dictate it.
Pronouns are not these subjective things that can mean whatever you want them to, and so as I was born male that means I am male and thus use male pronouns.
#12
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@TheMorningsStar
There was a time when tomboys were accepted in society as 100% female.
#13
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@RationalMadman
  1. When 'transitioning gender' one is actually transitioning the characteristics of their physical body (HRT and operation). That is mimicking the sex, not the gender of the one they want to mimic. To mimic the gender, they'd only need to mimic haircuts, clothing, ways of talking and acting as well as hobbies and interests  associated with the other gender.
Some trans folk do this. They do not have surgery, and they are biologically classified by their sex, and not their gender, which their sex is still unchanged but the behavior began to shift.

I think that just making the gender match the sex would generally add to the whole experience. Transgenderism just adds to the experience, probably.
#14
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@Greyparrot
Exactly. I linked in a different thread a NYTimes story where a mother was constantly questioned about if her tomboy daughter was trans or not. Second-wave feminists wanted us to realize that there was not just one way to be a woman/man. Trans-rights activists want us to view any deviation from the stereotype in children as a sign that they are trans.
#15
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Many of the assumptions underlying transgenderism are rooted in gender stereotypy. I've heard anecdotes that even female "allies" have found trans women personally boring because they only ever wanted to talk about dresses and makeup.
The very fact that they must resort to stereotypy suggests that they miss the more subtle point of being the opposite sex: innate personality and tendencies. This is something many trans women can't grasp because they simply have male brains.

I cannot stress this enough: the "mismatched brain" hypothesis serves as a fundamental pillar to the movement's aims. Without that, there's no reason to assume that gender dysphoria can't be treated by means other than gender transitioning.
And even if this is only true for some but not others, then it still stands to reason that it's not "transphobic" to oppose a movement that advocates transitioning as a catch-all cure for 100% of dysphoria patients despite the known and monumental hazards to quality of life.
#16
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@Swagnarok
advocates transitioning as a catch-all cure for 100% of dysphoria patients despite the known and monumental hazards to quality of life.
Some of the testimonials read like a sci-fi horror movie. 
#17
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@RationalMadman
Is it possible etc.
Any combination of data sequencing relative to anything, is possible.



And:

One's body they were born into.
Hmmmmmmmmm.......How does this work?


And:
Do you think that "loathing" is an inherent function or an acquired concept?

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#18
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@zedvictor4
Loathing is not there from me.

They do loathe their bodies, I don't understand your question.
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#19
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@secularmerlin
@Theweakeredge
@Double_R
@Nyxified
@Aowdd
So far the only people to reply on-topic have agreed with me.
#20
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@TheMorningsStar
Can a word be used to mean two different things?
#21
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@RationalMadman
Popular consensus is irrelevant to me.

You can oppose transgenderism's approach to gender dysphoria without being transphobic. To be transphobic is to treat trans people worse than cis people. As long as you put in the bare minimum effort to affirm a person's gender (because, even if you consider it a charade [I don't, but I digress], it's undeniable that it spares trans people from the hell that gender dysphoria can be at least regarding their interaction with you).

I don't see why you oppose that view. Even if we accept that trans people can't actually change from their sex assigned at birth, which I don't accept, who cares? I'd challenge you to give a better treatment for gender dysphoria that doesn't amount to conversion therapy, since we already know that doesn't work.
#22
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@RationalMadman
The surgery is not coequal with being transgender. Trans people are trans people before the surgery as well. You really do seem to be conflating being a trans person with the phenomenon of passing and the efforts some trans people go to in order to more reliably pass. 

You can absolutely support trans persons without supporting the idea of surgery but even while opposing surgery it would be best to remember that it is none of your buisness because it is not your body.
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#23
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@secularmerlin
Is it my business to care if somebody in my nation is raped or robbed from and it's not my body or money?

Just curious how the 'not your body' argument works.

Is it my business to care if suicide rates go up but it's not my suicide?
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#24
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@Nyxified
As long as you put in the bare minimum effort to affirm a person's gender (because, even if you consider it a charade [I don't, but I digress], it's undeniable that it spares trans people from the hell that gender dysphoria can be at least regarding their interaction with you
Not at all. It enables the hellish dysphoria's hold on them with an iron vice grip. They now learn they were right to hate their body and sex.
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#25
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@Nyxified
 I'd challenge you to give a better treatment for gender dysphoria that doesn't amount to conversion therapy, since we already know that doesn't work.

Extrapolate all.functionally equal treatments given to people with similar bodily dysphoric mental disorders; the anorexic, the bulimic, the 'I am so ugly I should cut myself and die' depressed/BPD'.

Then, mixing instead meds and therapies for them, tweak it towards helping the dysphoric person learn the real difference between sex and gender and do not let them fall victim to conflating the two. They should love their sex, be as a feminine a male and as masculine a female as they naturally are.

#26
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@RationalMadman
They now learn they were right to hate their body and sex.
This is a rather large assumption. Now I'm a cis person and you should really ask a trans person about what being trans is like but when it was explained to me hate was never brought up. Uncomfortable is a more common description. Also the trans people I know report far more sex and body positive attitudes developed after they came out. This is true whether or not the trans person elects to have any surgery. 

Please try to understand that the internal state of being transgender the question of whether surgery is appropriate in a given case and the phenomenon of "passing" otherwise known as being properly gendered by strangers without having to correct them (which cis people often take so for granted that they have not actually considered how offended they would be if they were misgendered by a stranger) are all seperate issues even if they are all important issues to the trans community. 
#27
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@RationalMadman
They should love their sex, be as a feminine a male and as masculine a female as they naturally are.
Exactly, though I would caution against necessarily calling it being a feminine male or masculine female. A lot of this revolves around modern gender stereotypes and trying to pigeonhole people into one set category.
Treat people that don't like their bodies/feel uncomfortable in them to accept their bodies (which is how every other body dysphoria is treated), then teach people that there is no one way to be a man/woman and that certain actions/behaviors are not actually masculine/feminine and engaging in them does not impact you as a man/woman (essentially what second-wave feminists marched for).

Have to say, I am shocked to see us agreeing on this point considering how much we disagree on so many other things. Nice to find common ground with others.
#28
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@secularmerlin
@TheMorningsStar
 it would be best to remember that it is none of your business because it is not your body.
But the medical industry complex has made this issue into an actual business. promoting designer genitalia and permanent hormone replacement as if it were a tattoo or a body piercing. An industry that is directed at kids mostly as that's where most of their easily duped customer base comes from.

It's like the new tobbacco industry ad campaign of the 1960's, and about just as deadly looking at the mortality rates of trans.
#29
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@Nyxified
 I'd challenge you to give a better treatment for gender dysphoria that doesn't amount to conversion therapy, since we already know that doesn't work.
And once again we see non-affirming therapies for gender dysphoria compared to conversion therapies for sexual orientation when that is one of the clearest false analogies in existence. Why does the pro-affirmation crowd insist on making this comparison when it is so clearly false? My guess is because it makes it easier to criticize non-affirming therapies when they have no actual evidence to support their BS views.

You don't compare a body dysphoria to a sexual orientation, you compare it to other body dysphorias. When you do that... oh, wow, would you look at that. In other body dysphorias non-affirmation is the norm? Who would have guessed! So, when you actually compare it to something appropriate the opposite conclusion is reached? Really makes me feel more strongly that the reason it constantly gets compared to sexual orientation is done for dishonest reasons.
#30
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@RationalMadman
Is it my business to care if somebody in my nation is raped or robbed from and it's not my body or money?
These are not acts one consents too. Preventing rape is actually supporting the "it's not my body" thing as you so eloquently put it.