Freedom of Speech

Author: Double_R

Posts

Total: 251
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@coal
And yet again, I reposted what you wrote along with my  paraphrasing of it. I then went sentence by sentence to show you how the two in my view line up precisely. Your response, rather than to show me which step I got wrong is to claim I’m the one not dealing in good faith.

That’s absurd. Have a good day.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@ILikePie5
Nothing I say or do will ever change your mind.
one might perhaps find it more entertaining to learn the mind before attempting to change the mind
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Double_R
claim I’m the one not dealing in good faith
another classic "rush-to-disqualify" ad hominem
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@coal
At this point I can't tell whether you actually don't understand the difference between what I said and what you wrote, or whether this is some idiotic game of yours.  
everyone who disagrees with you is either, disingenuous, intellectually and or morally blind, purely and irrevocably dense, or pure evilz
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@3RU7AL
Nothing I say or do will ever change your mind.
one might perhaps find it more entertaining to learn the mind before attempting to change the mind
That is good advice.

I also find it dishonest to back away from a contention because of the claim "I can't change your mind", it's inappropriate to consider it a forgone conclusion that the only purpose of debating is to change their mind. One may well believe they are correct and it's very unlikely that they will lose the debate, but if one is honest and fair one admits the other guy thinks the same thing. If it's pointless because they won't change their mind, were you going to change yours?

It is reminiscent of people who start a debate only to say "I'm just trying to educate you, but if you don't want to learn".... No one was accepted as sensei.

The purpose of debate is to find out which assertions are correct inferences and which are not. If you only care about changing minds and not the truth you're trying conversion not debate. If someone is not engaging in a debate honestly then say they aren't engaging in a debate honestly.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
This is why I miss users like Danielle and Coal, because they will take all your assertions and run a very hard devil's advocate counter, not just to change anyone's mind, but also to force you to substantiate your current  mindset. An unexamined mind is a worthless mind,
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Greyparrot
You and I have very different impressions of coal, but I take your point.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
I'm talking about the old Coal, he rarely shows up anymore because there are few people today that want to do genuine back and forths.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
When people get tribal they act collectively, people acting collectively to violate rights can't be fought the same way individuals are, to match their force and coordination you need to treat them like the collective they behave as. It's called war, and it's horrible; but defeat is not the noble way out.
It’s a pretty self defeating approach to take on a debate site. If one isn’t here to defend their actual beliefs I have no idea why they are here.
I don't see how this follows from my statement.
I assume your original post was an attempt at explaining why ILP5 and others here have such s as difficult time acknowledging such obvious and basic facts - basically because tribalism and war. My point was that whatever approach one feels is best in the political sphere, this is a debate site so that seems pretty irrelevant. No one is changing the world via DART.

If I misunderstood please feel free to clarify.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Double_R
No one is changing the world via DART.
ideas change the world

coherent ideas change the world for the better
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,167
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@3RU7AL
one might perhaps find it more entertaining to learn the mind before attempting to change the mind
I think I have based on the 10 or so pages of yalls comments lol
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Desantis is just giving us a glimpse of what the Congressional activities and investigations are going to be like when the GOP takes over in 2022.
All the more reason to condemn his use of his office.
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@cristo71
Ah… who said we had a dispute?
Well, good.

I refer you back to my first post to you if you’re so inclined.
I remember it quite well. You insinuated that DeSantis's actions were in fact a response to his Democratic opposition--i.e. "two can play this game..."
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Double_R
I assume your original post was an attempt at explaining why ILP5 and others here have such s as difficult time acknowledging such obvious and basic facts - basically because tribalism and war.
No, I was explaining that there are situations where the people/organizations you attack aren't identical to the ones who attacked you directly. If Disney is acting as a soldier in a tribe, and there is strong reason to believe it is, then attacking it is part of the same struggle where DJT was attacked.

No one is changing the world via DART.
3RU7AL has the perfect answer.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
If Disney is acting as a soldier in a tribe, and there is strong reason to believe it is, then attacking it is part of the same struggle where DJT was attacked.
That doesn’t make these two things even remotely identical.

Disney is a private sector corporation acting within the best interests of it’s shareholders. Freedom of speech exists to protect agents such as this.

DJT was president of the United States. Freedom of speech exists to protect agents of the free market from individuals in positions such as this.

Do you understand the distinction and why that distinction is relevant to this conversation?
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Double_R
Disney is a private sector corporation acting within the best interests of it’s shareholders.
That is debatable and not at all relevant to the issue regardless. If the interest of the shareholders was for some reason to gas Jews that would in no way mean Disney should be firebombed any less.

Freedom of speech exists to protect agents such as this.
As others have pointed out an amendment of the constitution exists to protect agents such as this (non government from government). The principle of free speech has justifications far deeper than "cause some guys in the 18th century thought so".

DJT was president of the United States. Freedom of speech exists to protect agents of the free market from individuals in positions such as this.
and they treated him just the same before he was president, after they decided he was the most dangerous man in America. The struggle I referred to is wider than one principle and one issue, and that was the point.

You should not lie to people, but if you're in a war you lie to your enemy whenever you can. It does not matter if they have not lied to you, they have bombed you and thus forfeited all of their rights until such time as the threat they pose has ended.

Do you understand the distinction and why that distinction is relevant to this conversation?
I understand the distinction between public and private entities. I also understand that the reason the founders believed they needed to limit the government and not the people is because the people were already limited by laws. The problem they were trying to fix was the aggressive use of force by government.

They could not conceive of a way a private entity could seriously hamper free speech, they thought the government was the only danger in that regard. However they did leave one example that tells us how they would view social media, the US postal service.

They considered any interference with the post to by a grave sin against the people. The idea that someone would open letters to potentially censor them was abhorrent to them.

The civil rights act similarly requires a distinction between rendering a service and control of speech. For instance a racist shop might claim that infringes on their free speech to be forced to provide a burger to a black person, but it doesn't. Neither is censorship on social media an infringement on their free speech. They may choose to deliver text to other people, or they may choose not to deliver text; but they may not discriminate and that has no reflection on what they choose themselves to say.

A racist shop owner can still be racist even if they serve a black man. A rabidly collectivist social media company can still be rabidly collectivist even if they deliver messages they disagree with over the internet. They are more like a postal service than they are a newspaper, they would never have become the defacto public square if they acted like a newspaper.

Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
As others have pointed out an amendment of the constitution exists to protect agents such as this (non government from government). The principle of free speech has justifications far deeper than "cause some guys in the 18th century thought so".
Yes, the principal is about stopping elected officials from using the power of their office to control what information the citizenry can use to evaluate them. Which is why the government passing a law punishing a corporation from criticizing them is one of the simplest examples of the principal being violated one could imagine.

The made up principal much of the political right is propagating now is about the right to have a platform, which is not a right in any way nor is it logically tenable. The right to dissent is part of being able to speak freely, so when you take issue with individuals or companies dissenting by banning someone from their site or speaking out against someone for something they said you are not supporting the principal you espouse.

ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Double_R
Yes, the principal is about stopping elected officials from using the power of their office to control what information the citizenry can use to evaluate them
That may be your principle but it is not the principle of free speech.
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
Disney can throw money at the opposition get someone elected that they want in there and then they'll get what they want back cuz that's the way the world works. In the meantime I'm sure they'll be just fine anybody that has to pay more to go to the park will just have to pay more to go to the park.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
That may be your principle but it is not the principle of free speech.
The term "fredom of speech" comes from the constitution, not right wing talk radio.

You are free to make up whatever principals you want, but you don't get to hijack a term which carries significant weight because of it's historical usage and act liked that weight also applies to your made up principal.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Yes, the principal is about stopping elected officials from using the power of their office to control what information the citizenry can use to evaluate them
That may be your principle but it is not the principle of free speech.
what's the short version ?
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Double_R
That may be your principle but it is not the principle of free speech.
The term "fredom of speech" comes from the constitution, not right wing talk radio.
It does not, it is mentioned in the constitution. It predated the constitution and an equivalent principle and phrase existed before the English language existed. I recommend you listen to lectures concerning Athens during the greek golden age. It is perhaps the most important history to know.

You are free to make up whatever principals you want, but you don't get to hijack a term which carries significant weight because of it's historical usage and act liked that weight also applies to your made up principal.
That would be dishonest if that is what was happening.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@3RU7AL
[Double_R:] Yes, the principal is about stopping elected officials from using the power of their office to control what information the citizenry can use to evaluate them
That may be your principle but it is not the principle of free speech.
what's the short version ?
Of the principle of free speech?:

Man, being a rational animal, should not be punished or shamed for expressing his conclusions or making arguments public or private. This is his better nature.

There are incomplete legal implementations of the principle, but they are no more the heart of the matter than a law against murder.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
concerning Athens during the greek golden age.
because language never evolves
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
should not be punished or shamed for expressing his conclusions or making arguments public or private.
ok

this seems problematic

for example

what if someone hypothesizes that i should be kicked out of town because of my skin color ?
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
ok

this seems problematic
I agree. I too have issues with ADoL's description of "free speech"--especially the part which mentions shame. I also would like to see it delineated the "origin of punishment."

ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@3RU7AL
@Athias
concerning Athens during the greek golden age.
because language never evolves
The evolution of which is irrelevant to the point. The same concepts can be communicated in different languages. That is what "translation" refers to. One may as well claim that Pythagoras wasn't talking about triangles because he didn't call them "tri-angle" in a language that didn't exist.


should not be punished or shamed for expressing his conclusions or making arguments public or private.
ok

this seems problematic

for example

what if someone hypothesizes that i should be kicked out of town because of my skin color ?
The belief of those who originated the principle was that in the grand scheme of things, that is on the average of human events, it is better to debate him than threaten or ostracize him. They believed that when people hear that you will not debate someone many will not assume it's because you're right, that threats of violence turn to violence, that violence turns into civil wars, and finally that civil wars destroy societies so that societies with more free speech will dominate the ones that do not.

That last point appears to be confirmed by many experiments.


[Athias:] I agree. I too have issues with ADoL's description of "free speech"--especially the part which mentions shame.
What issue do you have?


[Athias:] I also would like to see it delineated the "origin of punishment."
Origin of punishment would be anyone that threatens to punish by violation of rights or revocation of privileges. Who could realistically make such threats changes from town to town not to mention hundreds of years.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
it is better to debate him than threaten or ostracize him.
sure, as a general rule, yes

Daryl Davis is a great example for us all

however, there are many technically "unreasonable" individuals
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
What issue do you have?
The suggestion that one's freedom of speech is at all qualified by "shame." Why would "shame" be a factor?

Origin of punishment would be anyone that threatens to punish by violation of rights or revocation of privileges. Who could realistically make such threats changes from town to town not to mention hundreds of years.
Government?


3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Origin of punishment would be anyone that threatens to punish by violation of rights or revocation of privileges.
so, basically a parent and or a neighborhood bully