A black, female, BEARDLESS Dwarf princess?? Is that elf BLACK?!
No sir, no sir I won't stand for it.
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I will agree that JRR Tolkein is truly racist.
In JRR's book and the movies, other than Saruman and Smeagol, evil was generally darker-skinned beings and good was light-skinned beings.
Even stranger is that he went out of his way to wrongly depicts orcs as both dark skinned, frail and ugly while his elves are all pale, tall and handsome/beautiful.
I am not being racist in calling ugly vs handsome and beautiful there. Look at the LotR orcs and then look at the elves.
In all mythology other than LotR racist shit, elves are frail and small, orcs are massive, greenish/olive/light-brown, massively muscular and aesthetically awesome.
A true orc towers the fuck over a true elf and is far more handsome and isnt even that dark at all.
The elves in JRR's book have speciesist and racist plot favoritism as do the hobbits. The orcs are called evil and scumlike for wanting to get hold of the ring so they can use it to defeat the wrathful rule that elves and wizards have had over them for centuries. The entire story is so biased that somehow the dwarfs, which are meant to be enemies of elves, are serving the elves as loyal frontline soldiers...
Wtf. No black hobbits, no black elves, no black dwarfs... all called good guys.
So, while the casting is not true to the racist book, I say hip hip hooray.
Lotr orcs:
Proper orcs outside lotr:
Elf warriors outside lotr:
Elf warriors inside lotr:
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@Jeff_Goldblum
Eh, I don't plan on watching it.
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@RationalMadman
(I genuinely cannot tell if you are being serious or not, and so constructed to following as if you were being serious.)
So, you are unaware that there were people of ethnic minorities in the southern and eastern lands, lands conquered by Sauron, and that they were now all evil. In fact, the Blue Wizards (and Saruman early on) went to those lands to give aide (while Gandalf, Radagast, and Saruman later on dealt with the west). In fact, while it is said that the Blue Wizards did ultimately fail (only Gandalf succeeded) they actually managed to do enough to help weaken Sauron's forces, which ultimately lead to the victory over him.
So, we just didn't get these stories in detail, but it is clear that "ethnic=evil" is not true in the least.
Furthermore, the Elves are meant to be flawed on some level, and so pointing out how they have imperfections in how they act misses the point.
Furthermore, you seem to only have a very passing understanding of the history of Elves and Dwarves that leads you to not understand their relationship in the least.
You also criticize Tolkien's depiction of Orcs in comparison to the depiction in other fantasy settings when it is Tolkien that brought to orcs into the fantasy genre to begin with. He brought Orcs out of Beowulf, where they were a tribe of evil elves condemned by God, and brought them into the fantasy genre. His depiction is pretty well in-line with the mythology he drew from, so this criticism is also bs.
I can also go into detail about the Elves, but it would be a similar point.
At the end of the day, these lines of arguments you have made (which are, sadly, quite common) can only be made by someone with very little actual knowledge on Tolkien or his works. He did not center the stories he did write around the peoples in the south or east because he was trying to create a mythology for the English people, but he made sure not to act like they didn't exist or as if they were all evil either. His work defined the genre and brought new ideas and concepts to it. These criticisms that are popping up now that Amazon is trying to make a series in Tolkien's world are absolutely ignorant on reality.
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@TheMorningsStar
You also criticize Tolkien's depiction of Orcs in comparison to the depiction in other fantasy settings when it is Tolkien that brought to orcs into the fantasy genre to begin with. He brought Orcs out of Beowulf, where they were a tribe of evil elves condemned by God, and brought them into the fantasy genre. His depiction is pretty well in-line with the mythology he drew from, so this criticism is also bs.
Took the words out of my mouth, again.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Took the words out of my mouth, again.
It was primarily that argument that made me feel the need to include that first line in my comment. I genuinely don't know anyone who could make this as an argument without being either wholly ignorant or intellectually dishonest (or they are a troll).
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@TheMorningsStar
As with the Italian orco (“ogre”) and the word ogre itself, it ultimately derives from the Latin Orcus, a god of the underworld. The Old English creatures were most likely the inspiration for the orcs that appear in J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings.
Ogres and orc-like versions of Ogres existed long before Tolkein. He twisted them into hideous disfigured creatures for no reason at all. Their colouring is marred/dark.
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@RationalMadman
Do you have a link of their origins where they were 'less commonly "of horrid form or aspect"?
Does it matter if Their colouring is marred/dark?
Endermen of Minecraft are black, steal items, and cannot swim,
No one's 'seriously saying they're supposed to be Africans.
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@Lemming
Even at their most hideous they should appear handsome in a rugged way:
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@RationalMadman
That looks like a 'modern invented orc, not a orc before Tolkien.
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@RationalMadman
Ogres and orc-like versions of Ogres existed long before Tolkein.
Ya, I even said as such.
He twisted them into hideous disfigured creatures for no reason at all
You will need to provide some good evidence of that, as so far you only seem to be appealing to the depiction of Orcs from after Tolkien and not the orcs of myth and folklore that Tolkien drew inspiration from.
It genuinely seems like you are just agenda pushing at this point.
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@Lemming
That's because it is. I feel like if he had evidence that pre-Tolkien orcs were supposed to appear handsome in a rugged way that he would have actually provided evidence of such by now instead of appealing to modern depictions that have been influenced by the evolution of the fantasy genre.
It's very obvious in Tolkien's writing of elves that he drew them out of Norse and Germanic mythology.
I'm not familiar with Orc origination to comment.
It doesn't really matter once they take something from lore and add it into a modern context TV show anyway. Absolutely nothing in Marvel is related to Thor is accurate.
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@Lemming
Why don't you show me orc mythology please then.
They are based on ogres but converted into warriors.
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@RationalMadman
"Orcs were brought into modern usage by the fantasy writings of J. R. R. Tolkien, especially The Lord of the Rings."
"In Ludovico Ariosto’s epic Orlando furioso, the heroine Angelica is set out as a victim for a man-eating orca, in a literary recasting of the Andromeda myth.
A different word orc, alluding to a demon or ogre, appears in Old English glosses of about AD 800 and in the compound word orcnēas (“monsters”) in the poem Beowulf. As with the Italian orco (“ogre”) and the word ogre itself, it ultimately derives from the Latin Orcus, a god of the underworld."
A different word orc, alluding to a demon or ogre, appears in Old English glosses of about AD 800 and in the compound word orcnēas (“monsters”) in the poem Beowulf. As with the Italian orco (“ogre”) and the word ogre itself, it ultimately derives from the Latin Orcus, a god of the underworld."
"Ariosto
An early example of an orco appears in Ludovico Ariosto's Orlando Furioso (1516), as a bestial, blind, tusk-faced monster inspired by the Cyclops of the Odyssey.[b]
Tolkien
The orco from Orlando, along with the Old English word orc (in the sense of an ogre, like Grendel), was part of the inspiration for Tolkien's orcs in his The Lord of the Rings[3] In other manuscripts Tolkien wrote a side-note on the word:
The word used in translation of Q[uenya] urko, S[indarin] orch, is orc. But that is because of the similarity of the ancient English word orc, 'evil spirit or bogey', to the Elvish words. There is possibly no connexion between them. The English word is now generally supposed to be derived from Latin Orcus.[4][page needed]
Also, in an unpublished letter sent to Gene Wolfe, Tolkien also made this comment:
Orc I derived from Anglo-Saxon, a word meaning demon, usually supposed to be derived from the Latin Orcus – Hell. But I doubt this, though the matter is too involved to set out here.[5]
From this use, countless other fantasy games and works of fiction have borrowed the concept of the orc."
An early example of an orco appears in Ludovico Ariosto's Orlando Furioso (1516), as a bestial, blind, tusk-faced monster inspired by the Cyclops of the Odyssey.[b]
Tolkien
The orco from Orlando, along with the Old English word orc (in the sense of an ogre, like Grendel), was part of the inspiration for Tolkien's orcs in his The Lord of the Rings[3] In other manuscripts Tolkien wrote a side-note on the word:
The word used in translation of Q[uenya] urko, S[indarin] orch, is orc. But that is because of the similarity of the ancient English word orc, 'evil spirit or bogey', to the Elvish words. There is possibly no connexion between them. The English word is now generally supposed to be derived from Latin Orcus.[4][page needed]
Also, in an unpublished letter sent to Gene Wolfe, Tolkien also made this comment:
Orc I derived from Anglo-Saxon, a word meaning demon, usually supposed to be derived from the Latin Orcus – Hell. But I doubt this, though the matter is too involved to set out here.[5]
From this use, countless other fantasy games and works of fiction have borrowed the concept of the orc."
Tolkien appears to have taken a vague word, created his own, created his own race based on a vague monster.
Fictions deriving more from 'his take on it, than it's older origins.
Is how it seems to me.
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@Lemming
"Ariosto
An early example of an orco appears in Ludovico Ariosto's Orlando Furioso (1516), as a bestial, blind, tusk-faced monster inspired by the Cyclops of the Odyssey.[b]
Tolkien
The orco from Orlando, along with the Old English word orc (in the sense of an ogre, like Grendel), was part of the inspiration for Tolkien's orcs in his The Lord of the Rings[3] In other manuscripts Tolkien wrote a side-note on the word:
Which is truer to this.
or
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@RationalMadman
I think 'neither, looks like a sea monster.
"The large cast of characters features Christians and Saracens, soldiers and sorcerers, and fantastic creatures including a gigantic sea monster called the Orc"
"XXXVII
As soon as him the monster has descried,
And skiff at little interval, his throat
The fish, to swallow him, expands so wide,
That horse and horseman through his jaws might float.
Here Roland with the anchor, and beside
(Unless I am mistaken) with the boat
Plunged, and engulphed the parted teeth betwixt,
His anchor in the tongue and palate fixt;
XXXVIII
So that the monster could no longer drop
Or raise his horrid jaws, which this extends.
'Tis thus who digs the mine is wont to prop
The ground, and where he works the roof suspends,
Lest sudden ruin whelm him from atop,
While he incautiously his task intends.
Roland (so far apart was either hook)
But by a leap could reach the highest crook.
XXXIX
The prop so placed, Orlando now secure
That the fell beast his mouth no more can close,
Unsheathes his sword, and, in that cave obscure,
Deals here and there, now thrusts, now trenchant blows.
As well as citadel, whose walls immure
The assailants, can defend her from her foes,
The monster, harassed by the war within,
Defends himself against the Paladin.
XL
Now floats the monstrous beast, o'ercome with pain,
Whose scaly flanks upon the waves expand;
And now descends into the deepest main,
Scowers at the bottom, and stirs up the sand.
The rising flood ill able to sustain,
The cavalier swims forth, and makes for land.
He leaves the anchor fastened in his tongue,
And grasps the rope which from the anchor hung.
XLI
So swimming till the island is attained,
With this towards the rock Orlando speeds:
He hawls the anchor home (a footing gained),
Pricked by whose double fluke, the monster bleeds.
The labouring orc to follow is constrained,
Dragged by that force which every force exceeds;
Which at a single sally more achieves
Than at ten turns the circling windlass heaves."
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@Lemming
Well either the director is racist or Tolkein is, take your pick. I'll take the L on Tolkein if you wish.
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@RationalMadman
I really don't see why 'either should be racist.
Tolkien sounds to have repudiated 'real 'life racism, quite a bit.
And as for the movies, I see a white orc on the right hand side of this picture you linked earlier.
You setup a false dichotomy, Tolkein didn't darken the skin of a previously well defined thing. This is very very stupid argument because melanin has a distinct color to it that is not at all greyscale.
Even your own picture of the "darkest" orc is surrounded by a bunch of weird shades of grey. It is never entirely clear whether that is their natural skin color or some kind of disease/stain/grime.
Some of the goblins in Moria were especially pasty with veins visible (as if there was no pigment at all, consistent with an underground life).
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Sorry, let me be clear the orcs being shadier/muskier and hideous was the lesser part.
The elves and hobbits all being caucasian af was the major gripe. Dwarfs have to be very caucasian that's a given.
The elves and hobbits all being caucasian af was the major gripe.
It's only a gripe for a racist, because only a racist can't empathize with an individual of another race.
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@RationalMadman
@ADreamOfLiberty
Or maybe certain fantasy races in Tolkien's lore were created from the myths of a certain culture, and a certain skin color,
That it makes little sense to have diversity everywhere,
Pff, why not add some gays, trans, more women warriors to the cast, (Sarcasm)
Personally, I find it offensive that I rarely if 'ever see any white Kishi (folklore) - Wikipedia. (Sarcasm)
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@Lemming
Why are all the caucasian-type races good guys except Saruman.
Use your head. Either the previous director(s) are/were subliminally being racist or Tolkein's description was. Surely it has to be.
There is definitely an undertone to the whole thing, you have to be blind not to see it, I even noticed it when I was young, I literally noticed it before 'systemic racism' was a thing in the media people really spoke about as a commonplace thing. I am telling you that there was a completely unfair bias towards Caucasians being good guys in the visual narrative of LotR. You can play your rhetoric games here all you want.
Orcs are not meant to even look brown or dark or beige, they are meant to be olive green muscular af big beings not some hideous mole-rate looking scavenger.
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@RationalMadman
The Elves were drawn from Germanic myths.
The Hobbits represented the people of the English countryside (at a time where that would have basically meant only English people).
You are trying to find something to reach for in order to make it so that Tolkien is racist even when he isn't.
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@RationalMadman
Wormtongue was white, Sauron was white before he got crushed by an ocean, Gothmog the orc was white, that one orc in the third movie with a skull on his head was white, Denethor was white, many of the Nazgul before becoming Nazgul were white.
Plenty of evil white people.
Eh, orcs vary on the writer,
Warhammer had fungus orcs/orks, as I recall,
Which were a fair bit what the Warcraft Orcs were based off.
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@Lemming
Wormtongue was white, Sauron was white before he got crushed by an ocean, Gothmog the orc was white, that one orc in the third movie with a skull on his head was white, Denethor was white.
So, the best/greatest amongst the orcs were white... I have already told you, orcs in Tolkein's world are complete and utter BS, they are not even orcs they are some rodent vulture ass being.