Should public school be banned?

Author: TheUnderdog

Posts

Total: 129
#31
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Sure kids may need a push, but if they're consistently uninterested; barely scraping by, and grow more and more resentful with each year that's not education that's torture and they will act like someone whose been tortured by society.

Traumatized comes to mind.
#32
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Hmmmmmm.

Roman Catholic schools........The 1960's......Sexually repressed Priests and Nuns. (The best in the World you would have me believe).

You're sailing close to the wind again Doc.

Safer to keep religion out of child development.
#33
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@zedvictor4
why do you deny facts?
#34
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Well prayer was in school before the 1960's
#35
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,597
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

On April 23, 1635, the first public school in what would become the United States was established in Boston, Massachusetts. Known as the Boston Latin School, this boys-only public secondary school was led by schoolmaster Philemon Pormont, a Puritan settler. The Boston Latin School was strictly for college preparation. It was modeled after the Free Grammar School of Boston, England. The English school taught Latin and Greek and was centered on the humanities. Some of the Boston Latin School’s most well-known alumni include John Hancock and Samuel Adams. Benjamin Franklin was a dropout!
Topic's author
#36
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@SkepticalOne
So how about parents just homeschool their kids or pay directly for their kids?  And if they can’t afford to, they don’t have kids?  It works for the UAE; they don’t have socialized education there and people get educated.
#37
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@SkepticalOne
Con: because somebody else's kids can and will effect and you the rest of society. It is better for all involved if we invest in a future where those making decisions for society have cultivated minds.
Thank you and yes, most people know and understand this for at last 100 years.

Unfortunately we have lot of illiterate,  immature and immoral conservative types in USA ---see 60 million that voted for Trumpet----   as well as in other countries.

And people still wonder why I have this round about prognostication for a end-date-for-humanity. Just look at some of the thread topics at DArt and it doesn't take much intellect to see where humanity is headed for and why.








#38
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@ebuc
Just look at some of the thread topics at DArt and it doesn't take much intellect to see where humanity is headed for and why.
Don't burst my bubble - I like to think some of the more extreme threads come from members of a very loud minority!
#39
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@TheUnderdog
...because that doesn't ensure future generations will be properly equipped to make informed decisions on societal issues. 
#40
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@SkepticalOne
...because that doesn't ensure future generations will be properly equipped to make informed decisions on societal issues. 
Do you really need a public education though to blindly trust authority? Seems like it's unnecessary. Indoctrination can be done at home as well.
#41
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
That's because nine times out of ten the goal isn't for them to get a job it's for them to go to college.
Yes, it seems like what happened was that schools stopped flunking people. Teachers saw how badly failing high school could mess up someone’s future and understandably didn’t have the heart to do it anymore. But when everyone does that a high school diploma it stops being a mark of general competence and instead means only that someone turned a certain age. It’s incredibly hard to flunk out of high school these days. As late as the 1970s the majority of working adults hadn’t graduated from high school…out of my four grandparents only one graduated high school. It was a big deal.

Now college takes high schools place, except it sucks up four more years of adolescence and isn’t free or even close to free. I think you’re right that vocational training starting in K-12 is a good idea. Traditionally kids would be apprenticed under a master to learn a trade around 12-14
#42
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,169
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@thett3
Now college takes high schools place, except it sucks up four more years of adolescence and isn’t free or even close to free.
It's worse, at least high school ends at some point. As long as there is money in it universities are motivated to keep you in the system. They'll shuffle you around different majors and up to PhD till menopause if you let them.
#43
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@SkepticalOne
Don't burst my bubble - I like to think some of the more extreme threads come from members of a very loud minority!

sorry, Skeptical one, I didnt realize post #15 was abubble.

"extreme threads".  Extreme could be assigned to many differrent topcis and political parties.

It could be said by some, that, I have some extreme cosmic viewpoints as an example for varied examples of extremme


#44
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@Greyparrot
Education=/=indoctrination
#45
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Why do the majority of Catholics ignore the facts Doc?

Maybe it's because the sex is so good.
#46
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@zedvictor4
Maybe it's because the sex is so good.

Air, water, food, sex, shelter.   Men just need a place, women need a reason. 

These right wingers like tell others .....' then dont have kids '..., as if the sex drive is less powerful hormone than the addition of nicotine.

These right wingers lack maturity levels in their brains, that allow them to be more consider of human nature being basesd on RNA-DNA just like all other animals.   









#47
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@zedvictor4
facts are on my side
Topic's author
#48
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@SkepticalOne
Homeschooling lets parents install their own values into their kids instead of the state.  The state has no buisiness whatsoever  indoctrinating our kids with leftist orthodoxy(or conservative orthodoxy).

Let parents install their own values in their own kids.  Homeschooling in addition produces better grades for kids.  The typical kid is in the 80th percentile by the standards of public school.  

Just another example of the government screwing up.
#49
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Dr.Franklin
It's that old facts issue Doc.

As was correctly pointed out to me by Tarik.

A fact by definition, is unequivocal.

Not a random bit of contrived pseudo-data.
#50
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@TheUnderdog
The state has no buisiness whatsoever  indoctrinating our kids [...]
Looks like an assumption to me. Plus, is it really any different if parents indoctrinate their children under the guise of education? The goal should be to prevent indoctrination rather than move to a system with less oversight and regulation where it is easier and more common. 

Let parents install their own values in their own kids.
Absolutely, but ignorance isn't a value. The Earth is round, the earth is billions of years old, and the spectrum of gender/sexual orientation isn't something that can be disregarded because they are difficult to process under certain worldviews.  Facts are not optional.

The typical kid is in the 80th percentile by the standards of public school.  

And? This doesn't address the reasons why homeschooling is not feasible for every family. It also assumes a perfect world where every student is on even ground and capable of focusing on academics rather than difficulties created by their life circumstances. For example, doing well on a test isnt all that important if you're not sure where your next meal will come from. 

Just another example of the government screwing up.
Government certainly isn't perfect, but in this case government is dealing with a much broader set of issues than your typical homeschooling teacher.
#51
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@SkepticalOne
Looks like an assumption to me. Plus, is it really any different if parents indoctrinate their children under the guise of education? The goal should be to prevent indoctrination rather than move to a system with less oversight and regulation where it is easier and more common. 
People are going to (try) to indoctrinate their kids either way. It’s just how people are.  That’s why touching social or religious issues was a third rail for so long and why it’s so incredibly dangerous to the system. It’s difficult to determine just how common it is but even knowing that it’s propaganda designed to persuade me I’ve seen enough clips from “woke” teachers talking about how 20 out of their 30 4th graders are “LGBT” or how we need to destroy “whiteness” to know that public school isn’t in the future for my kids. I grew up in a conservative suburb and my own 5th grade teacher was caught on camera saying she wanted conservative Christians to die! It’s some truly scorched earth culture warring.

The destruction of the public school system is now in my financial best interest, as if it goes away or if school choice is passed I’ll no longer have to pay $500 a month to support a school system I don’t expect to ever use. That’s not a good thing! So many people don’t have the means to afford private or homeschooling, and republicans control so many states that if public school is politicized for a lot of kids who need it it’s done. It’s already started in a lot of places. It’s better to just avoid cultural issues as much as possible and hope that real life corrects the parents who teach their kids objectively incorrect things. Otherwise you must be willing to fight them, politically or otherwise, and the collateral damage (lots of poor kids not being able to get any decent education) isn’t worth it 
#52
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@thett3
I wonder if this 'abolition of public schools' conversation truly began when the 'social' issue of  equality was implemented throug desegregation? Or maybe it was an earlier controversy or has been a constant companion of public schools since their inception?  I suspect the latter and imagine the conversation is a little more firey than usually considering the highly charged political climate. 

Either way, allowing LGBTQ students to be marginalized by pretending they don't exist or to withhold accurate historical information is not an option. Education is about telling the whole story as best we know it. Historical accuracy and most especially the recognition of a broader understanding of humanity should not be equated to a mere social or political issue. It is the denial of LGBTQ and historical accuracy that is the political touchstone which has no place in public schools.
#53
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@SkepticalOne
I wonder if this 'abolition of public schools' conversation truly began when the 'social' issue of  equality was implemented throug desegregation? Or maybe it was an earlier controversy or has been a constant companion of public schools since their inception?  I suspect the latter and imagine the conversation is a little more firey than usually considering the highly charged political climate. 
Well school desegregation started in the 1950s and busing was at its peak in the 1970s, almost fifty years ago, so I would say no. It’s likely there was a ton of controversy at that time but it had long since faded. What’s happening now is new and completely unrelated. There have always been a small minority of people who were ideologically opposed to public schooling or didn’t want to pay taxes or whatever but the recent controversies with school boards and stuff is directly related to Covid policies and the explosion of “woke” politics 

Either way, allowing LGBTQ students to be marginalized by pretending they don't exist or to withhold accurate historical information is not an option. Education is about telling the whole story as best we know it. Historical accuracy and most especially the recognition of a broader understanding of humanity should not be equated to a mere social or political issue. It is the denial of LGBTQ and historical accuracy that is the political touchstone which has no place in public schools
I’m not sure exactly what you mean. Parents aren’t objecting to LGBT kids existing, they’re objecting to stuff like teachers wanting to teach kindergarteners about anal sex. A small minority of teachers are actively predatory and use politics as a convenient shield to engage in some pretty disturbing stuff. I don’t think most people would actually disagree if everyone discussed the issues rationally and with a cool head. What is it that you want schools to teach that you think they aren’t, or that you think (and have evidence that) right wingers want to ban? 

#54
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@thett3
Parents aren’t objecting to LGBT kids existing, they’re objecting to stuff like teachers wanting to teach kindergarteners about anal sex.
This is an absurd objection since educators  in general (if not across the board) aren't teaching kindergartners about anal sex or advocating for such a curriculum.  The younger generations now have a much broader and fluid understanding of gender and sexuality. I think it is fair to say some parts of our society are uncomfortable with this and seek regressive legislation to prevent this from being true of future generations. 

What is it that you want schools to teach that you think they aren’t, or that you think (and have evidence that) right wingers want to ban? 
As an example, I am certain parts of my historical education were distortions of what actually happened. An accurate account of our history, warts and all, would serve us better.


#55
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@thett3
I will bet you money right now, literally any amount as I am that sure about this.

In the next 2 years, there will be more predatory teachers (we'd need to really dig through every case file that gets remotely public) that are right-wing conservatives than left-wing liberals.

We leave out right-wing Libertarians if you want, since if we include that I'll 100% win. 2 years today I'll pay you if I'm wrong but I'm not sure how to track it.
#56
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@thett3
One problem for my side of the bet is that the headlines lately seem to only focus on female predators (to reduce the sexist bias against men regarding it) and they seem ambiguous about their political views.

I actually don't know how we'd police this bet because not all cases make headlines at all.
#57
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@thett3
I also believe that conservative victims, in conservative schools and areas, report less than liberal ones do. Even with that setback, I believe I am correct and that the convictions (especially in this modern era of 2022-2024) will end up more on the conservative end of the spectrum.
#58
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@SkepticalOne
This is an absurd objection since educators  in general (if not across the board) aren't teaching kindergartners about anal sex or advocating for such a curriculum.  The younger generations now have a much broader and fluid understanding of gender and sexuality. I think it is fair to say some parts of our society are uncomfortable with this and seek regressive legislation to prevent this from being true of future generations
It’s not an absurd objection because I’ve seen videos of teachers talking about how they discuss homosexuality,  gender identity etc with their very young students. I saw an email from a teacher boasting that after teaching her 4th graders about gay and trans issues 20 of the 30 “came out” to her as some kind of LGBT—that’s not education, that’s grooming. The Florida law that caused such controversy was restricting discussions of sex/gender identity for kids K-3, so obviously there is an appetite for it. If you want to argue it’s an over reaction it’s really a “he said she said” type situation because as far as I know we don’t have any empirical evidence on how common this is or isn’t. I do know for sure it’s happening—I’ve probably seen over 100 videos of teachers boasting about it by now. 

As for the highlighted bit, it’s a free country and they can be uncomfortable with it if they want to. It goes back to my original point, you need to be very careful with how hard you want to push because conservatives control more states than you do and that’s only going to accelerate in the next few years. Is teaching fifth graders about gay sex really an important issue? I would pick my battles more wisely if I were on the left 

As an example, I am certain parts of my historical education were distortions of what actually happened. An accurate account of our history, warts and all, would serve us better.

Welcome to history sadly. It’s virtually impossible to teach history without pushing some kind of agenda even if it’s just picking the topics you teach or leave out. Could you be more specific? What do you think needs to be taught that right wingers want to get rid of?

#59
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@RationalMadman
I will bet you money right now, literally any amount as I am that sure about this.

In the next 2 years, there will be more predatory teachers (we'd need to really dig through every case file that gets remotely public) that are right-wing conservatives than left-wing liberals.
The number of conservatives in elementary school or below education could probably be measured as a single digit percentage so I doubt that. But I don’t think a lot of teachers are molesting kids or anything like that, at least not more than what’s been happening in the past. I just don’t think discussions of sexuality or gender identity are appropriate for young kids. And I don’t trust public school teachers to do It at all 
#60
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@thett3
It’s not an absurd objection because I’ve seen videos of teachers talking about how they discuss homosexuality,  gender identity etc with their very young students. I 
It absolutely is an absurd and baseless objection. If anal sex were being taught to kindergartners it shouldn't be too difficult produce the offending curriculum or offending teachers. I doubt there is any curriculum or anyone who can still call themselves a teacher doing what you suggest.

I saw an email from a teacher boasting that after teaching her 4th graders about gay and trans issues 20 of the 30 “came out” to her as some kind of LGBT

Well, first, a story about an email isn't  substantiation. Secondly, discussing LGBTQ does not require discussing anal sex. This is nothing but an attempt to poison the well either by you or by whoever you got the story from.

As for the highlighted bit, it’s a free country and they can be uncomfortable with it if they want to. It goes back to my original point, you need to be very careful with how hard you want to push because conservatives control more states than you do and that’s only going to accelerate in the next few years.
Which political party is in power has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of gender and sexual orientation. This is not an argument against the position, but a fallacious appeal to consequences.

Is teaching fifth graders about gay sex really an important issue?
Whenever sex ed is taught it should include all aspects of human sexuality. I don't know when sex ed is age-appropriate exactly, but it should occur before the students have first-hand experience. This is an important issue because sexual ignorance leads to societal problems.

Welcome to history sadly. It’s virtually impossible to teach history without pushing some kind of agenda even if it’s just picking the topics you teach or leave out. Could you be more specific? What do you think needs to be taught that right wingers want to get rid of?
There are fairly major historical events which have been left out of the history text books (eg. Tulsa race massacre) and the events that are covered can be heavily ethnocentric (eg. Thanksgiving) or leading to generally false impressions (eg. steady progress for the equality of African Americans since Reconstruction). The criticism is not about preventing current material from being banned, but of the current material being inadequate.