Peace or a Sword

Author: Tradesecret

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@Stephen
think outside of the box

Can you explain what you mean by "think outside the box"?
Fair enough.  In this topic it is about not just assuming these are contradictions but thinking of ways that might find a way to reconcile them.  For example, how might the Jews have considered a messiah might bring peace to the land of Israel and perhaps relief from the Romans? And how might that compare to what Micah's point was in his prophecy.

So you want us to use conjecture & guess work? Assume?  To think in an original and creative way? To use our imagination? And in ways that are not limited or controlled by rules or tradition?
I am asking people for their opinion about these apparent contradictions.  People will conjecture and guess - that is a matter for them.  I am not asking for that - simply asking people not to automatically assume it must be a contradiction - which itself is also conjecture and guess work.  I don't have an issue with people using ways that are controlled by rules or traditions.  Is it possible that they can be reconciled? 
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Happy people reading a bible.  
Angry people reading a bible. 
Into
A happy person translating scriptures. 
Angry person translating scriptures. 

Who could ever possibly guess what it is that they might make their God tell them next ?

Fingers crossed , it is good.

Perhaps that is all it is.  Or then again - maybe it is all on point. 
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@Reece101
How can Jesus on one hand bring peace and on the hand tell us that he has not come to bring peace?  Is the simplistic answer to this that here is one of the many contradictions in the Bible or is there something else going on? 

I wonder how many of us have the capacity to think outside of the box.  How is it possible to reconcile such statements? 
Isn’t this what you call post-modernism?  

Nope. 
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@rosends
Micha is talking about what he is observing about his own time and the sadness of the situation that he witnesses. By the end of the chapter, he speaks of a future in which the people return to God and God to the people. I don't know why Jesus would quote this as a status he would try to bring about.
I totally agree that Micah is talking about what he is observing about his own time.   He also suggests that God needs to intervene to get rid of the strife. 

This aligns with the people returning to God and God to his people.  Nevertheless, there is an intervention - just like there is for other returns to God after the godly people have left. 

Micah 7:1-2 describes this doesn't? the godly are not bearing fruit.  It is like they are swept from the land. And the result is that evil starts to flourish and become normal. Corruption abounds.  Society without the godly becomes a haven for evil - where no one trusts anyone anymore - neighbor, and friends, even family.  Micah waits in hope. 

Jesus, in my view, takes Micah's point and unpacks it.  Society in Jesus' time was much like Micah's time. And as Stephen mentions much like our own time. 
I think part of the answer lies in the type of sword Jesus is talking about. Obviously it is a metaphorical sword, but the Greek word here is a dagger. Not a great big swashbuckling broad sword, but a short dagger. One that can be used to maim but more often is used to pluck arrows out of one's own body during a war.  Some have called it a healing sword.  Not that it heals, but it is part of the process of starting the healing.  Like a needle is used to get rid of a splinter. 

So Jesus is not trying to bring about misery, but rather is discussing God's intervention - and his own role in that as the Messiah.  (I understand you don't see Jesus as the Messiah) The Jewish people in Jesus' time did have a view that when the messiah came he would bring peace and freedom. From the Romans primarily at that time, but perhaps from the many possible sects of the time. 

Jesus' mission however was not that small. He wasn't coming to bring that kind of peace.  His was a divine mission - to bring reconciliation and healing between God and humanity. The intervention was not going to be superficial but one that would go to the heart of the issue and deal with sin. 




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@Tradesecret
think outside of the box

Can you explain what you mean by "think outside the box"?
Fair enough.  In this topic it is about not just assuming these are contradictions but thinking of ways that might find a way to reconcile them.  For example, how might the Jews have considered a messiah might bring peace to the land of Israel and perhaps relief from the Romans? And how might that compare to what Micah's point was in his prophecy.

So you want us to use conjecture & guess work? Assume?  To think in an original and creative way? To use our imagination? And in ways that are not limited or controlled by rules or tradition?
I am asking people for their opinion about these apparent contradictions.

 No, you haven't. You have asked us to "think outside the box" to see if these contradictions can be reconciled? HERE>> #1



  People will conjecture and guess - that is a matter for them.  I am not asking for that.  

Well other than conjecture, guess work, assumptions and speculation (as educated as they be), what is left other than to take them for what they clearly appear to be:  biblical contradictions?



I am  simply asking people not to automatically assume it must be a contradiction - which itself is also conjecture and guess work.

So then your answer to my query is  for us to find a solution to these contradictions without using conjecture, guess work, assumptions and speculation. How does one do that without "thinking outside the box"? 



  I don't have an issue with people using ways that are controlled by rules or traditions. 

 That is exactly why I wanted you to make it clear what you deem to be thinking "outside of the box", and why I wrote:

"So you want us to use conjecture & guess work? Assume?  To think in an original and creative way? To use our imagination? And in ways that are not limited or controlled by rules or tradition?"#16 
>>>>> NOT limited to or controlled by rules or traditions.  You obviously misunderstood what I asked.


Is it possible that they can be reconciled? 
They maybe can. But seeing that your definition of "thinking outside the box" is extremely limited to the "inside of the box" it only leaves one to:

[A] Intentionally and knowingly misinterpret scripture ? Intentionally and knowingly mistranslate scripture? Rewrite scripture and insert new definitions to words? Put words into the mouths of biblical characters that they do not speak? OR   make up lies and excuses?


Tradesecret wrote: @rosends "Jesus, in my view, takes Micah's point and unpacks it.  Society in Jesus' time was much like Micah's time. And as Stephen mentions much like our own time. 
I think part of the answer lies in the type of sword Jesus is talking about. Obviously it is a metaphorical sword, but the Greek word here is a dagger. Not a great big swashbuckling broad sword, but a short dagger. One that can be used to maim but more often is used to pluck arrows out of one's own body during a war.  Some have called it a healing sword.  Not that it heals, but it is part of the process of starting the healing.  Like a needle is used to get rid of a splinter."

Will that be conjecture, guess work, assumptions and or speculation? OR fact?




SO:
Are you going to show us how you/the church "reconcile these apparent biblical contradictions" without applying conjecture, guess work, assumptions and speculation or any of the above I have shown at [A], Tradesecret





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@Polytheist-Witch
Just because I say something you don't like doesn't mean I'm not calm. The fact that you were wrong is why you feel like I'm upset and then I'm not calm. And if you're going to take things personal there's no point to discuss anything with you further thanks for your input.
Saying someone is wrong doesn’t necessarily make them wrong. Did I misunderstand something? You were talking past what I was saying.
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@Reece101
Polystyrene Witch wrote:  That should be self-evident if you're going to be in a religion form debating religion that's kind of a basic premise you should have latched on too. Because honestly if you're not participating in a religion it really has nothing to do with you.
Reece101 wrote: Calm down. 

The Witch won't be doing that anytime soon, Reece. She's cast her spell and poked her big Witch's nose in to something she has no intention of addressing.  She will be a " bullied " victim sooner or later and you will be a "hater" and a misogynist and accused of being much, much worse.

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@Tradesecret
I understand what you are saying but it seems strange to invoke a statement about all the bad at the time of Micha (who then promises the people that God will, when they repent, swoop in a raise them up again) and use that text to describe what Jesus has brought. It is as if he is taking responsibility to the difficulties in his time. Instead of the state of disarray's being a problem, he views it as a desirable position for which is takes credit. That is what I don't understand.
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.
TO THE ESTEEMED MEMBERSHIP, OTHER THAN AS EXPLICITLY SHOWN, THE BIBLE FOOL MISS TRADESECRET,


I have easily found out why Miss Tradesecret is so Bible dumbfounded, and in addition to this said fact, she goes against Jesus and DEBATEART rules and code of conduct as shown below: 

1. Miss Tradesecret is a woman (https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME9338U) that is not supposed to be in this forum in trying to teach men, where she is to be SILENT (1 Timothy 2:12). Notwithstanding, as seen in the link above, Miss Tradesecret's birthday shows it to be January 1, 1969!
 
2. Miss Tradesecret is only 12 years old as her profile page so states where her birthday "now" is December 31, 2010, and then doing the simple math! https://www.debateart.com/profiles/Tradesecret 

3. Therefore the rules of DEBATEART in members User Accounts is that you have to be at least 13 years old to be upon this Religion forum to post! Since Miss Tradesecret is only 12 years old, then she cannot post upon this forum, PERIOD!


**** Anyone want to make a side bet in how fast Miss Tradesecret changes her birthday date AGAIN to try and save what face she has left in being the #1 Bible stupid pseudo-christian within this forum? LOL! ****



NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN YOUNG WOMAN CHILD LIKE MISS TRADESECRET THAT GOES AGAINST JESUS IN 1 TIMOTHY 2:12, THEN GOES AGAINST THE USER ACCOUNT RULES OF DEBATEART IN NOT BEING OF THE PROPER AGE TO POST ON THIS FORUM, WILL BE …?


.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
2. Miss Tradesecret is only 12 years old as her profile page so states where her birthday "now" is December 31, 2010, and then doing the simple math!     


Country: Ukraine??
Native language Urdu????
 I am genuinely stuck for words' Brother and even more baffled  now as to the why? Has he become so embarrassed by all his past statements and claims and tall tales about himself  that he is now attempting to play it all down as one big  joke and put it all behind him?  I have said he's clown.

 I wonder too if he believes it has gone unnoticed that he has copied an old thread of my own from a year ago? Starting with exactly the same question?
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@Stephen
Well it didn't take long for you to hijack this topic? 


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@rosends
I understand what you are saying but it seems strange to invoke a statement about all the bad at the time of Micha (who then promises the people that God will, when they repent, swoop in a raise them up again) and use that text to describe what Jesus has brought. It is as if he is taking responsibility to the difficulties in his time. Instead of the state of disarray's being a problem, he views it as a desirable position for which is takes credit. That is what I don't understand.
I don't understand why you say Jesus is taking responsibility for the state of disarray.  I certainly would never have thought that Jesus was seeing it as a desirable position. In fact, it seems to me that Jesus is saying - things need to change. But rather than taking a superficial approach, let's go for the deep seated reasons for the state of disarray and heal them.  

I think the other thing here is that - Micah knew just like Jonah knew that God was slow to anger but quick to forgive.  Jonah might have embraced that in relation to Israel, but not for the Gentiles.  God however was much bigger and much more merciful than even Jonah could fathom or perhaps liked. Micah is rightly concerned for his own people in his own land.  Yet Micah was also aware that even after repentance, even after reconciliation with God, that the Jews would once again go back to their old ways.  The history of Israel and indeed the world, shows that this path is inevitable. 

Jesus was very aware of this. His mission was therefore both the same but different.   It was like the John the Baptist's a gospel to call his people to repentance - but it was also more than that.  He, as the messiah, would not only deliver them from their sins, but would do it comprehensively.  Hence, the clear message that he was not coming to bring peace in the way that people would normally have been thinking. Peace from the Romans. Peace with each other. Even peace with God for a temporary moment - only to fall back into their old ways again.  It was to bring a sword. A sword that would cut away that which would send them back to their old ways and enable them to remain with God forever. 

This sword as I mentioned above is not a big swashbuckling broadsword. It was a short dagger.  One which could maim but also was used to remove arrows from the body after an attack.  Jesus' was not taking responsibility for the situation at the time, he was not taking pleasure in the situation either. He wanted to change it. Remember these verses are in the context of a discussion Jesus is giving to his Apostles as they were being sent out as his disciples to help in the swooping up of those who are repentant. 

Yet Jesus also knew that this message of his would be divisive. Hence the imagery of the sword as well.  Some people would see sword and think "dangerous fool". Others however would see sword and think "savior".  Those who rejected him would continue in their sin - perhaps from time to time dealing with it - but then just going back to the old ways. Those who embraced him would have their sin dealt with - once and for all.  This is why Jesus then talks about loyalty in this context. 

Families divided again. But this time it would be a division brought about loyalty to Jesus or those who were opposed to him. This has been the story of the world since then. Those who have embraced Jesus and those who have not. Jesus wanted his apostles to be fully informed of this as they went about their task.  These verses - are therefore not directed to the world at large. They were directed at his apostles as instructions in how they would be received or not - in their mission to draw people back to God.  
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@BrotherD.Thomas
I wonder what it says about creepy old white men who stalk and abuse little kids? 
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@Tradesecret
But isn't the quote in question, "Do not suppose I have come to bring peace to the  earth.  I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother in law a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."' "

In that quote, the speaker (which I will assume to be Jesus according to the text) is saying that he is there to bring about the state of divided family. He has come to turn people against each other.

So unlike Micha's use, which was to be a sad commentary on an unfortunate and unwanted current state of affairs which would be resolved in the future by God, Jesus seems to be saying that he is responsible for creating this undesirable state - it is his goal.
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@Tradesecret
peace is referring to general tranquility among men not that Christ can't be violent or "bring a sword"
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@rosends
But isn't the quote in question, "Do not suppose I have come to bring peace to the  earth.  I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother in law a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."' "

In that quote, the speaker (which I will assume to be Jesus according to the text) is saying that he is there to bring about the state of divided family. He has come to turn people against each other.
As I said above -  that will depend upon how one looks at the sword.  If one looks at the sword like a weapon then using it to divide the family has connotations of a power struggle - condoning evil. Yet if one looks upon the sword as the means of dealing with the cancer, then divisions that arise between father and son and other family members are naturally going to occur. After all, if the only means to start the healing process is going to cause more pain, many people would prefer to just die. 

Here Jesus in talking to his disciples - is saying - "this message of healing is going to cause division because it will conflict with those who don't want to change".  If you embrace Jesus' teaching it will force some families to divide. I know for instance a young Jewish guy who converted to Christianity. He now teaches at the local Pressie college.  Yet this conversion has caused his family to kick him out.  His family see this as an insult to their religion. They see him as now dead to them. Recently, my nephew was in a relationship with a young Jewish girl.  Her family told my nephew if he wanted to marry their daughter then he would need to convert to the Jewish religion.  

The point of course is that Jesus' mission - was not in accord with many of the Jewish families at the time.  His message would be both a sword of division and a means of healing depending upon how people understood his message.  This would naturally cause many families to divide. Not that Jesus wanted to divide families.  Yet he knew his message would. Even as God knew in the OT that his message would divide families.  

So unlike Micha's use, which was to be a sad commentary on an unfortunate and unwanted current state of affairs which would be resolved in the future by God, Jesus seems to be saying that he is responsible for creating this undesirable state - it is his goal.

This is where I disagree with you.  Micah was a sad commentary with a future hope in God. Jesus in my view is saying that division already exists - and will continue to exist.  Yet he is providing the means - which in the short term may appear to be even more painful - but will inevitably bring about healing and peace for many. 

Hence, whereas Micah was hopeful Israel would once again turn to God in repentance - he also knew it would only be for a short term before they fail again. Jesus totally understood that - yet also wanted to bring a halt to that - even if it meant more pain in the short term. 

I don't think Jesus is saying he is responsible for the undesirable state which clearly existed before he was born.  Hence he must be saying something else. I see what you mean in that Jesus says he will turn family against itself.  Yet I don't see how if the situation already existed, he must be accepting responsibility. That doesn't make sense. Hence it must mean something else.  I would suggest that he is saying his means of dealing with this ongoing issue of sin - requires a knife. A surgical knife perhaps.  It is this remedy - this solution - which is the cause of the division.  Some would see it as a weapon. Others would see it as a means of healing. 

And honestly, the cross of Jesus is exactly like that isn't it? For many, it is a major source of offence - and has been used as a weapon to hurt and harm. But on the other hand, for many others, it has been the source of healing and restoration and forgiveness.  For those opposed to Jesus, he is the enemy. For those who embrace him, loyalty is a no brainer.  


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@Dr.Franklin
peace is referring to general tranquility among men not that Christ can't be violent or "bring a sword"
The world's understanding of peace is absence of conflict.  

Christianity's view of peace is absence of conflict between God and humanity. 

Jesus never came to bring peace to the earth - he came to bring peace between God and Man.  

Christians ordinarily say - first we need peace with God, then peace with others, which leads to peace in oneself.  Sometimes we use the acronym JOY.

Jesus
Others
You

Quaint - but nevertheless, helpful. 
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It kind of makes me laugh that Christians and Muslims think that the God of the Jews would just abandon them and give all of his special privilege to the Muslims or the Christians instead of the Jews. Do you realize how ludicrous that sounds the God that helped the Jews do all the things that he supposedly help them with would  just all of a sudden say that f*** them I'm going to go with the Muslims or f*** them this Jesus guys got it down even though Jesus says way less about the law and worshiping God the way the Jews do. At least the Muslims keep the law. But all of a sudden the God of the Jew says if you're not Muslim then it's okay for the Muslims to kill you I mean it's absolutely the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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It kind of makes me laugh that Christians and Muslims think that the God of the Jews would just abandon them and give all of his special privilege to the Muslims or the Christians instead of the Jews. Do you realize how ludicrous that sounds the God that helped the Jews do all the things that he supposedly help them with would  just all of a sudden say that f*** them I'm going to go with the Muslims or f*** them this Jesus guys got it down even though Jesus says way less about the law and worshiping God the way the Jews do. At least the Muslims keep the law. But all of a sudden the God of the Jew says if you're not Muslim then it's okay for the Muslims to kill you I mean it's absolutely the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
That certainly is an interesting take on what you think Muslims and Christians think.  I don't think God ever abandoned the Jews.  The Jews in history and even according to Paul - are still called by God. Paul even makes the point in Romans 11:29 that God's gifts and calls are irrevocable. 

The ancient religion that the Jews embraced arose before  Israel became a nation.  Abraham himself was going to be the father of many nations.  Noah was not a Jew.  Jacob's name was changed to Israel.  His sons became the fathers of each of the 12 tribes of Israel.  Yet Abraham gave his allegiance to Melchizadek.  He was an ancient priest who served the one True God.  Moses later married into the Midianite Tribe.  His father in law - Jethro was another priest who served the one True God.  

Israel was chosen by God, not because of its greatness, but because it was small and hated by the rest of the world.  Yet despite God's calling, Israel has had a multi-colored relationship with God. Sometimes embracing him and sometimes rejecting him.  Jesus was and remains a Jew. He was a not a Gentile. Jesus' 12 apostles were Jews. The first 4000-5000 - possibly 10s of thousands of Christians were Jews.  

Christianity was initially a Jewish sect.  Yet, its mission, like God's, was never going to remain nationalistic. Pentecost - was an event where Jews from all the world came to worship God. God used that event to send his Spirit - so that Jews from all the world would embrace Christ and then go back to their countries and towns that they came from.  

Christianity became one of the first - world religions. It embraced all cultures. Israel remains a treasure to the church.  And Israel will once again embrace God fully. 


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@Tradesecret
You missed this. Too difficult to explain yourself is it? >>



-->@Tradesecret  think outside of the box

Can you explain what you mean by "think outside the box"?
Fair enough.  In this topic it is about not just assuming these are contradictions but thinking of ways that might find a way to reconcile them.  For example, how might the Jews have considered a messiah might bring peace to the land of Israel and perhaps relief from the Romans? And how might that compare to what Micah's point was in his prophecy.

So you want us to use conjecture & guess work? Assume?  To think in an original and creative way? To use our imagination? And in ways that are not limited or controlled by rules or tradition?
I am asking people for their opinion about these apparent contradictions.

 No, you haven't. You have asked us to "think outside the box" to see if these contradictions can be reconciled? HERE>> #1



  People will conjecture and guess - that is a matter for them.  I am not asking for that.  

Well other than conjecture, guess work, assumptions and speculation (as educated as they be), what is left other than to take them for what they clearly appear to be:  biblical contradictions?



I am  simply asking people not to automatically assume it must be a contradiction - which itself is also conjecture and guess work.

So then your answer to my query is  for us to find a solution to these contradictions without using conjecture, guess work, assumptions and speculation. How does one do that without "thinking outside the box"? 



  I don't have an issue with people using ways that are controlled by rules or traditions. 

 That is exactly why I wanted you to make it clear what you deem to be thinking "outside of the box", and why I wrote:

"So you want us to use conjecture & guess work? Assume?  To think in an original and creative way? To use our imagination? And in ways that are not limited or controlled by rules or tradition?"#16 
>>>>> NOT limited to or controlled by rules or traditions.  You obviously misunderstood what I asked.


Is it possible that they can be reconciled? 
They maybe can. But seeing that your definition of "thinking outside the box" is extremely limited to the "inside of the box" it only leaves one to:

[A] Intentionally and knowingly misinterpret scripture ? Intentionally and knowingly mistranslate scripture? Rewrite scripture and insert new definitions to words? Put words into the mouths of biblical characters that they do not speak? OR   make up lies and excuses?


Tradesecret wrote: @rosends "Jesus, in my view, takes Micah's point and unpacks it.  Society in Jesus' time was much like Micah's time. And as Stephen mentions much like our own time. 
I think part of the answer lies in the type of sword Jesus is talking about. Obviously it is a metaphorical sword, but the Greek word here is a dagger. Not a great big swashbuckling broad sword, but a short dagger. One that can be used to maim but more often is used to pluck arrows out of one's own body during a war.  Some have called it a healing sword.  Not that it heals, but it is part of the process of starting the healing.  Like a needle is used to get rid of a splinter."

Will that be conjecture, guess work, assumptions and or speculation? OR fact?




SO:
Are you going to show us how you/the church "reconcile these apparent biblical contradictions" without applying conjecture, guess work, assumptions and speculation or any of the above I have shown at [A], Tradesecret 

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@Tradesecret

 People will conjecture and guess - that is a matter for them.  I am not asking for that.  #31
So.

In fact, it seems to me that Jesus is saying - things need to change. But rather than taking a superficial approach, let's go for the deep seated reasons for the state of disarray and heal them.  

I think the other thing here is that - Micah knew just like Jonah knew that God was slow to anger but quick to forgive.  Jonah might have embraced that in relation to Israel, but not for the Gentiles.  God however was much bigger and much more merciful than even Jonah could fathom or perhaps liked. Micah is rightly concerned for his own people in his own land.  Yet Micah was also aware that even after repentance, even after reconciliation with God, that the Jews would once again go back to their old ways.  The history of Israel and indeed the world, shows that this path is inevitable. 

Jesus was very aware of this. His mission was therefore both the same but different.   It was like the John the Baptist's a gospel to call his people to repentance - but it was also more than that.  He, as the messiah, would not only deliver them from their sins, but would do it comprehensively.  Hence, the clear message that he was not coming to bring peace in the way that people would normally have been thinking. Peace from the Romans. Peace with each other. Even peace with God for a temporary moment - only to fall back into their old ways again.  It was to bring a sword. A sword that would cut away that which would send them back to their old ways and enable them to remain with God forever. 

This sword as I mentioned above is not a big swashbuckling broadsword. It was a short dagger.  One which could maim but also was used to remove arrows from the body after an attack.  Jesus' was not taking responsibility for the situation at the time, he was not taking pleasure in the situation either. He wanted to change it. Remember these verses are in the context of a discussion Jesus is giving to his Apostles as they were being sent out as his disciples to help in the swooping up of those who are repentant. 

Yet Jesus also knew that this message of his would be divisive. Hence the imagery of the sword as well.  Some people would see sword and think "dangerous fool". Others however would see sword and think "savior".  Those who rejected him would continue in their sin - perhaps from time to time dealing with it - but then just going back to the old ways. Those who embraced him would have their sin dealt with - once and for all.  This is why Jesus then talks about loyalty in this context. 

Families divided again. But this time it would be a division brought about loyalty to Jesus or those who were opposed to him. This has been the story of the world since then. Those who have embraced Jesus and those who have not. Jesus wanted his apostles to be fully informed of this as they went about their task.  These verses - are therefore not directed to the world at large. They were directed at his apostles as instructions in how they would be received or not - in their mission to draw people back to God.

Conjecture and guesswork. Something you tell myself and others you are never prepared to use yourself when discussing the bible. 


Obviously it is a metaphorical sword, but the Greek word here is a dagger. Not a great big swashbuckling broad sword, but a short dagger.#34

You claim it was a "metaphorical sword" that Jesus was referring to. You may be correct in the case of pitting one family member against another. Simply because some Jew believed him (Galileans for the most part) and many didn't (those in Jerusalem where no one had ever heard of him).

But tell me Tradesecrete. What kind of sword was Jesus speaking of when he told his followers to arm themselves to the teeth even if it meant selling the clothes off their backs?

Luke 22:36King James Version
 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


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@Tradesecret
Hence, whereas Micah was hopeful Israel would once again turn to God in repentance - he also knew it would only be for a short term before they fail again. Jesus totally understood that - yet also wanted to bring a halt to that - even if it meant more pain in the short term. 
Micha was looking towards a time when the change would NOT be for a short term but would be a permanent and new state of affairs. Is there any where in Micha 7 where you see a prophecy of a return to evil after repentance?

And why would Jesus then use the language of Micha which is about evil and recast it to be about a healing which comes about through the situation he creates?

I don't think Jesus is saying he is responsible for the undesirable state which clearly existed before he was born.  Hence he must be saying something else. I see what you mean in that Jesus says he will turn family against itself.  Yet I don't see how if the situation already existed, he must be accepting responsibility
But he uses the language "I have come to..." which means that it is his task to bring about a situation -- setting families against themselves. Saying that he has come to start something means it hasn't existed beforehand. And saying that setting the family against itself is a form of healing goes against the context of the Micha quote in which the family's being set against itself is a problem, not a part of the process of the solution.

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@Stephen
@Tradesecret


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Miss Tradesecret, as a woman shown herewith: https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME9338U that goes directly against Jesus’ words in 1 Timothy 2:12, whereas she is not to teach and in being SILENT towards men within this forum!

I am following Jesus’ inspired words in CORRECTING YOUR BIBLE STUPIDITY again, and again, and again:  ”As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.” (Timothy 5:20)


ONE OF THE MOST EMBARRASSING QUOTES TO STEPHEN IN POST #41 BECAUSE OF YOUR TRUE MODUS OPERANDI OF BEING A 12 YEAR OLD GIRL!!!: "Well it didn't take long for you to hijack this topic? "

Listen up Bible fool, the LAST THING you should worry about is someone hijacking your weak thread where we are burying you on your topic, where as I have shown in my post #39, YOU are not even supposed to be in this Religion Forum in the first place in only being a  12 YEAR OLD YOUNG GIRL in your "current" profile page https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME9338U  As if you going directly against Jesus in 1 Timothy 2:12 wasn't embarrassing enough for you as a "girl", now you break DEBATEART User Account Rules in not being at least 13 years old to post within this forum!

As shown above, where do you get the authority to go against Jesus, AND, DEBATEART Account Users Rules?!  EXPLAIN:



NEXT SNOT-NOSED PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN 12 YEAR OLD BIBLE FOOL "GIRL" LIKE MISS TRADESECRET THAT SLAPS JESUS IN THE FACE IN GOING AGAINST 1 TIMOTHY 2;12, AND TELLING DEBATEART THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW THEIR ACCOUNT USER RULES IN BEING UNDERAGED TO BE HERE ILLEGALLY, WILL BE ...?


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How is it possible to reconcile such statements?
Think of it this way, if humanity cannot voluntarily { democracy } agree to curb the overpopulation ---in regards to the operational systems currently in place--- then humanity has how many remaining options to pull ourselves out of spiral into global annihilation:

1} a dictator{s} who see the reality of our global problems, and force{ sword } humanity on the path of the straight and narrow solutions to a unity of sorts, or,

2}  ?....i.e  I dont see on our horizon a global, spiritual and/or educated smart decision making pathway of unification, by humanity, towards this goal of survive, and then prosper under ecological sustained standards of living that allow for a balance of prosperity to an ecological sustain-able humanity on Earth.

It was Mohammad who forced all the tribes into a common{ unity } set of religious beliefs instead of warring with each other.

 Currently it appears to be China --if not along with Putin--   that is posed to unify humanity by one means of force and/or other combinations of whatever, as a global solution.

There are plenty who believe that viral or bacterial health pandemics are the natural way to do this and we should not curb economic growth to save lives etc. I.e. the old and weak need to die off and allow the young to take their place, as we cull global over-population issues in this natural process.
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@Tradesecret



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Miss Tradesecret, as a woman shown herewith:  https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME9338U that goes directly against Jesus’ words in 1 Timothy 2:12, whereas she is not to teach and in being SILENT towards men!

I am following Jesus’ inspired words in correcting your Bible stupidity again, and again, and again:  ”As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.” (Timothy 5:20)


Addressing your post #9 that truly shows us your 12 year old girl mindset! LOL


YOUR QUOTE THAT IS MEANINGLESS TO ME AND JESUS: “Nevertheless, you will play by the correct rules or I will ignore you.”

Barring the FACT that you do not play by the rules of DEBATEART in you being only a 12 year old Bible inept girl, as shown in my link herewith: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7458/post-links/321275 Jesus and I do not need to play by your little "girly rules," understood Bible fool?


YOUR QUOTE ONCE AGAIN WHERE YOU DIDN’T KNOW A SECOND VERSE PERTAINING TO YOUR INITIAL POST EXISTED WHERE I HAD TO SCHOOL YOU ONCE AGAIN: “Firstly, you have intentionally misdirected the conversation by quoting from another passage and NOT addressing the one I provided. Neither passage is weak or wussy.

Your Matthew 10:34 passage that shows Jesus being peaceful in letting family members turn against each other:  "Do not suppose I have come to bring peace to the  earth.  I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother in law a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."
 
My passage in Luke 12:49-53 that shows Jesus wished that His "Fire on Earth" was already happening, along with turning family members against each other: "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!  Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? NO, I tell you, but division.  From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.” (Luke 12:49-53)

Heads up little 12 year old girl, in my Luke passage Jesus plainly states His mission to cast fire upon the earth where it was not yet fulfilled, because He adds, “How I wish it were already kindled!”  Therefore, in the context of Luke 12 is the major factor in determining Jesus’ meaning of FIRE, whereas your wussy Matthew passage leaves the true Jesus KILLING FIRE OUT!!  Get it Bible fool?

 Jesus has been talking about the coming judgment (Luke 12:4-5, 8-10, 20-21, 35-48). He goes on to talk further about judgment (Luke 12:58-59; 13:3, 5, 9). John the Baptist warned the people about the wrath to come when “every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire” (3:7, 9). John predicted that the Messiah would baptize believers with the Holy Spirit and fire, but He warned that the Messiah would “burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (3:16, 17). Understood little 12 year old girl?

Therefore your WUSSY version in Matthew was tip-toeing through the tulips, whereas my version in Luke shows our Jesus to be a forth coming serial killer to His Jewish creation if they don’t accept Him as the Hebrew Yahweh God incarnate when His Second Coming has come, as brutally shown in Rev.11:5-10, PERIOD!  2+2=4


NEXT ILLEGAL 12 YEAR OLD GIRL LIKE MISS TRADESECRET TO BE IN DEBATEART AND GOING AGAINST THEIR AGE RELATED RULES, WILL BE …?

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@Tradesecret


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Miss Tradesecret in being a 12 year old girl https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7458/post-links/321275

YOUR MISCONSTRUED QUOTE AGAIN IN YOUR LAME LITTLE GIRL POST #9: “Secondly, you omitted to discuss Micah 7.  Is there a reason for this save and except it does not agree with your position.”

NO, little girl Bible fool, my statement in question is in “addition too,” Micah 7.  Do the simple math if you can to recognize this simple deduction? DUH!

The question that you have yet to answer yourself, but only to get other opinions to use before you “try” to do it, is plainly that Jesus was a hypocrite in His one side of having a peaceful nature, and then turning into a serial killer upon His Second Coming, on His other side, bar none, period!


YOUR PITIFUL ONCE AGAIN QUOTE OF WHY I AM NOT SPIN DOCTORING YOUR QUESTION LIKE YOU DO ALL THE TIME:  “Now answer the question….  in doing so you confess you don't have the capacity to think outside the box.”

Who needs to use your ungodly term of “thinking outside the box” when we have Jesus truthfully showing Himself to begin with relating to your topic at hand? 

As is shown in this forum ad infinitum, is your notion of “thinking out of the box” refers to your ungodly “spin doctoring of literal passages and narratives” if they show themselves to be disturbing, where what they say to you in this case, is not what they mean!  When you perform this “SPIN,” others like myself easily Bible Slap you Silly®️ at your embarrassment and expense!


NEXT 12 YEAR OLD GIRL ILLEGALLY BEING ON DEBATEART LIKE MISS TRADESECRET IS DOING, WILL BE ...?

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@Tradesecret


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Miss Tradesecret, in being a 12 year old girl https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7458/post-links/321275

YOUR QUOTE ONCE AGAIN SHOWING YOUR COMPLETE BIBLE STUPIDITY AGAIN!: "It is clear that Jesus usage of the term "sword" is metaphorical not literal. Obviously if someone gets converted to Jesus and mentions it to his or her family, then depending upon how they react - will cause a division.

NOT, little 12 year old Bible fool girl, it is NOT metaphorical for Jesus to mention the sword in a way for it to be used as intended: Then said he (Jesus) unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.” “When they which were about him saw what would follow, ………. they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword? And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.(Luke 22:36-38, 49-50,)

Miss Tradesecret, again, your Bible dumbness is without question, but what did we expect from a 12 year old girl? LOL!



NEXT LITTLE 12 YEAR OLD GIRL BIBLE FOOL LIKE MISS TRADESECRET THAT TRIES TO “THINK OUT OF THE BOX” TO MAKE JESUS NOT TO BE WHAT HE TRULY IS IN BEING DISTURBING AND A SERIAL KILLER, WILL BE …?

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@Tradesecret
exactly, Christians should be tough and fight hard. 
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Christians should be tough and fight hard. 

As Jesus taught and encouraged the people he'd come to save. The Jewish zealots of  Galilea, and with a sword in their hands.
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Yes.