You Americans should care because Ukraine is a Western ally.[a] It may not be for long anymore.
Russia is a systemic adversary of the USA. Letting systemic adversaries violate your interests, will encourage them to continue at your expense.[b]
The USA has a reputation of abandoning allies. Abandoning Ukraine will strengthen that reputation.
The West is in part responsible for the crisis, among other reasons by putting Ukraine long in the waiting chamber for joining NATO.[c]
[a] We have no treaty with Ukraine. And it’s not our job to promote democracy, nor protect anywhere but the United States. We tried doing it in the past and look where we got. No one ever talks about the bloody civil war in eastern Ukraine that has killed thousands already. Where were y’all then with the “people have the right to choose.”[24]
[b] As long as there’s a red line, it doesn’t matter. The red line is any attack on a NATO country. Even then I’d argue it’s irrelevant because NATO is pretty dumb. We have zero interests in Ukraine. Literally zero.[25] But protect democracy. That’s not our job.[26]
[c] Ukraine is within the top 5 of the most corrupt nations in the world. Just throw more money at them. Why the hell not. Putin doesn’t want a larger border with NATO. He wants a buffer.
If you’re gonna argue from a moral standpoint then troops should be key because morality has no bounds.
[a] Whether you should care is a different issue than whether you should do something about it. I argued the former. Russia is damaging USA interests, but opposing that also has costs.
[24] I don't recall saying that.
[b] That may not be the case for you, but to most people it matters whether their interests are violated, including most Americans. It is the Americans to whome their interests matter that should care. The others could also care for moral reasons.
If in an American school a strong kid bullies a weak kid, is that something Americans should care about ?
[25] Can you provide a source for that information ?
[26] Care is not limited to one's job.
[27] What is the idea here ? If the Putin regime controls Ukraine, then there will be less corruption there, so overall that would be an improvement worth the cost ?
[1] Many of today's countries were at some point in history part of a different kingdom or empire. That does not imply they are today.
Ukraine exists as an independent nation since 1991.
[2] Prior the famine organised by Stalin in the early 1930s, ethnic Ukranians outnumberd ethnic Russians in Donbass.
After Ukraine had been 'liberated' again, this time by the Soviet Union, it was payback time for their support to Germany.
[3] America's desires are no justification for invasion. That Bob wants something that does not suit Alice, does not justify Alice bullying Bob, let alone bullying Paul.
[4] It is easy to make a prediction without time frame. When will sanctions be lifted ?
Europe is affected obviously. Many eastern European countries feel threatened by Russia.
[5] Russia is attempting to conquer Ukraine, not liberate it.
[6] Personally, I am against pointing out falsehoods without pointing out their falseness.
[7] What evidence can you present to support that claim ? Volodymyr Zelenski was convincingly reelected in 2019.
[8] Was Ronald Reagan a puppet leader ? If so, who was the puppet master ?
[9] Please present a credible source supporting that 90% of Ukraine's government consists of Jews.
Russia allegedly invades Ukraine to denazify it. How can a goverment of Jews be a Nazi government ?
[10] Can you prove that is indeed all Putin wanted ?
[11] I am sad a brutal dictator has decided to conquer half of Ukraine and to overthrow a democraticly elected government.
[12] That may be all you have been reading, but there a sources with longer articles than Twitter.
If a bully bullies someone, is an argument for supporting the victim required ?[*]
[1] [no response]
[8] His advisors were the puppet masters. Kinda like how biden's presidency is rule by committee.
[4] [no response]
[9] Putin is obviously referring to the genocides in Ukraine when he talks about nazification and not antisemitesm.[9'] I'm also not going to provide evidence for 90% of ukraines power players being Jewish, but numerous Jewish writers from the Ukraine show some anxiety that their success in government will be used to persecute them, and any evidence I'll provide you'll miss the point of what is being said and bitch that the true number is like 70% or some other nonsense instead of focusing on the crux of what the argument means.[9'']
[7] [none]
[10] 10 shows the hypocrisy of your unfounded statement in number 5.[10'] Putin has merely said he recognizes the ukranian seperatists regions and only invaded because the Ukraine attacked the seperatist regions[
[13] Nato keeps an open invitation to practically all nations and Ukraine can join when they want, it looks like just above 50% of the population want to join, but the government never got around to making it happen
[*] [no response]
[1] Russia rightfully belongs to Ukraine.
[8] What evidence can you present that Ronald Reagan was the puppet of his advisors and that this was more the case than with non-actor presidents ?
[4] You forgot to answer my question.
[9'] That there has been a genocide remains to be proven, but we are already discussing that elsewhere.
[9''] So you were exaggerating the prevalence of Jews in the Ukrainian government. You were also understimating the fraction of Jews in the the Ukrainian population. Modifying figures to support your narrative is deceptive. You must be communist.
[7] To you that may be sufficient, but rational, unbiased people need more evidence to warrant belief in a claim.
[10'] Is that fact or just your personal opinion ?
[10''] Putin said ? You are joking, right ? Seriously, stop stalling and demonstrate that Putin only wanted the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine that wanted their independence.
[*] I am glad cognitive dissonance has set in.
[13] What is your source for that information ?
[14] What the founders wanted is irrelevant. What the current population wants is relevant.
[15] Is that a fact or just your personal opinion ?
[16] Why is that ?
[13] Nato keeps an open invitation to practically all nations and Ukraine can join when they want, it looks like just above 50% of the population want to join, but the government never got around to making it happen
[14] I think the constitution of the United States, particularly the Bill of Rights is very important and that the principles america was founded on and relies on to be the most powerful country in the world, is very important.
[15] It's a statement on ethics, so obviously yes.
[16] Because they would fight for it, the same way the people rose up and fought for Maoist China or how people rose up and fought for Pol Pot to lead their country. Americans fought and died for freedom, a lot of these people fought and died so they could make Pol Pot or Mao leader as a vote for that type of government. These people want to be persecuted, otherwise they would resist instead of fleeing to western countries and then voting for interventionist regimes like the ones they run from.
[13] Please demonstrate that open invitation to join NATO extended to Ukraine.
[14] Is what you, a current citizen of the USA, thinks relevant ?
[15] Thank you for sharing your personal opinion with us, but rational people prefer to believe in reality.
[16] Those are strange examples you gave, since Maoist China and Khmer Rouge Cambodja were dictatorships.
1) Please demonstrate that people who want democracy fight for it.
2) Please demonstrate that people who fight for democracy are always successful.
You Americans should care because Ukraine is a Western ally. It may not be for long anymore.
Russia is a systemic adversary of the USA. Letting systemic adversaries violate your interests, will encourage them to continue at your expense.
Worst case scenario, they reassemble the former USSR and leave the United states alone, having zero affect on it. No country is even remotely close to being able to defeat the American military so Russia will not violate American interests/
There are worse case scenarios than that one. If you think that being remotely close to beating the American military is a requirement for violating American intests, then you should climb out from under your rock and learn some history.
[17] Learn history before you repeat its mistakes. The League Nations focussed on the protection of minorities. Nazi Germany used that as an excuse to grab some territory. The United Nations learned from that mistake. History however has several examples of regions where a population with an original majority is dominated by foreigners who have acquired a majority by force.
[18] That was in violation of international law and he has done more than that.
[19] So you baldly assert, but can you prove Ukraine attacked these independent states ?
[20] What evidence can you present to support that claim ?
[21] Read who is writing.
[19] [no response]
[20] [none]
[19] If you know your claim to be false, it is understandable you don't try demonstrating it.
[20] That may be enough for you, but rational people need more evidence to believe that Putin has no interest in the majority of Ukraine.
I think putin is claiming because of the genocides of ethnic russians, not because of the fact they are Jews. Putin is a zionist as well, so he isn't going to bring up Jewish stuff
What evidence can you present that there is a genocide of ethnic Russians ?
Russian intelligence services with spies in the area claim this is true. Do you have more first hand knowledge of what is happening in the Ukraine than government officials stationed in those areas do? [28]
You are joking, right ?
First, you haven't presented any evidence that Russian spies have made accusations of genocide by Ukraine.
Second, most rational people are incapable of increasing their gullibility enough to believe accusations from Russian spies of genocide by Russian ennemies.
[28] No. I don't have first hand knowledge of a genocide anywhere in Ukraine.
maybe so, both countries speak virtually the same language and enjoy the same history but both Putin and Ukraine are wrong in this war. Ukraine is a cia puppet state and is deeply corrupt [22] while Putin is asiatic and sending muslim Chechens over to kill Ukrainian whites. Not to mention he is in bed with klaus schwab
white Europeans die while Putin and the Globalist American Empire reap the benefits of war [23]
[22] Please present a credible source for that information.
[23] This war is bad for Putin. The sooner it ends (in his favour) the better for him.
How does this war benefit the Globalist American Empire ?
[22] [no response]
it hurts the GAE because Ukraine is very much in bed with CIA, Biden's interests, and more. If a pro-russian president is installed, he will most likely stop this from happening.
[22] If you made that up, it is understandable you can't present a credible source.
I did find sources claiming corruption is high in Ukraine.
[23] You claimed GAE reaps the benefit of war.
