PRO DEBATE MEANS ANTI-AUTHORITARIANISM / PRO DEBATE MEANS ANTI-PUTIN

Author: oromagi

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@RationalMadman
The Russian State media uses none of those, it's so honest and amazing and trustworthy...
Where did you learn that from? Western media sources that engage in propaganda and sensationalism?
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@Incel-chud
I can see RT news quite easily actually. The amount of sensationalism and context-twisting is significant in every single report on this event.

The fact that Putin can even enourage the Ukranian army to coup their leadership so openly shows that he firmly believes in his ability to change a narrative later on, no matter how ridiculous and aggressive his original move was, such that he appears the genuine leader. You do realise he never really won a genuine election to be leader of Russia right?

In Russia, voting isn't entirely anonymous and those that vote against Putin are openly threatened every election with a strong hint that their careers and lives will be very limited if they do so and admit it to a single soul (or even just do so).
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@RationalMadman
If you lived in Russia, wouldn't you think those things about America?
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@Incel-chud
I'd lie if I didn't, so as not to regret my whole life.
Incel-chud
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I wonder if they also falsely believe Americans die for stating their opinions
oromagi
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@Incel-chud
Speaking of Jesse Ventura, since you like democracy so much. Did you know that when he became governor the CIA met up with him and interrogated him on why he won, when their models showed he should have lost.
Wait, let me guess,- your source for this assertion is the host of "Conspiracy Theory with Jesse Ventura"  


Why is the CIA tracking who should win in elections?
They are the Central intelligence Agency.  Predicting the outcome of elections in every country on earth and advising the Federal Govt accordingly is part of their job description.

Why is the CIA intimidating people, when they gain public office, if the results were unexpected?
They aren't.  You are just believing what Jesse Ventura tells you.  There is no reason to accept Ventura as a legitimate source of information on any subject.

Yes, if actors are politicians it should be highly suspicious. It doesn't make sense that they are so common in politics, especially when looking at heads of states.
So, you don't comprehend that all good politicians are good actors first.    Churchill and Lincoln were terribly depressed individuals: very moment of confidence and satisfaction demonstrated during their public life was for show.  Kennedy and Roosevelt lived in near constant pain but pretended to be healthy men for the cameras.  Roosevelt actually played the role of a man who could walk. We now know that Trump was quite ill with COVID when introduced Amy Barrett and debated Joe Biden and held a rally making fun of CDC recommendations for preventing COVID.  Trump is such an actor that he's never seen without camera ready hair and makeup.
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@Incel-chud
I know Russians who have escaped Russia or have ancestors there, trust me it's not an illusion. I'll let you think it's just rumours though.
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@oromagi
So, you don't comprehend that all good politicians are good actors first.    Churchill and Lincoln were terribly depressed individuals: very moment of confidence and satisfaction demonstrated during their public life was for show.  Kennedy and Roosevelt lived in near constant pain but pretended to be healthy men for the cameras.  Roosevelt actually played the role of a man who could walk. We now know that Trump was quite ill with COVID when introduced Amy Barrett and debated Joe Biden and held a rally making fun of CDC recommendations for preventing COVID.  Trump is such an actor that he's never seen without camera ready hair and makeup.

I.m not understanding why you think that stuff is credible


There is no reason to accept Ventura as a legitimate source of information on any subject.
I don't think he would lie about a meeting with the CIA. His one criticism of them was that they refused to show ID until pushed. Nor is your statement about him hosting a show where he investigates conspiracies relevant. The guy basically just aired experiments to test theories and interviewed politicians and officials about certain conspiracies. For example he pressed an elected official on why the sign on area 51 threatens death, as trespassing is not a death penalty crime. It is a fair question. My understanding is the sign is just an intimidation attempt, but the appropriateness is fair to question.

He also asked why several things concerning 9-11 were not public record. I remember the FBI agent pushing back and asking Jesse if he would ever reveal classified intel from his days as a navy seal, and Ventura says "Of course not" and stops interrogating him. If you had been the host of the show, you may have conducted interviews in similar ways. It's not quack territory, and if it were quack territory, it wouldn't make him a liar.



They are the Central intelligence Agency.  Predicting the outcome of elections in every country on earth and advising the Federal Govt accordingly is part of their job description.
They shouldn't be analyzing American elections. It creates a grey area which can be constantly encroached on and lead to election interference.


Incel-chud
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@RationalMadman
I have seen americans on chinese broadcasts that escaped america saying similar things about America that former members of Russia, state when they escape
badger
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I know quite a few Russians in Ireland and none of them are anti-Russia. I don't think Russia is one of those countries you escape. 
badger
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@oromagi
Zelensky 
I saw the glory to Ukraine video. He's having fun.
 
I think it's kinda nonsense to compare him to Putin though lol. Putin is a Caesar or Nero. Close enough anyway. 

Again, war is obviously bad. 
oromagi
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@Incel-chud
No I trashed your twisted premises and your absurd conclusion. Nobody expects you to understand that.
Give me a detailed case on why propaganda and sensationalism should be used as opposed to the truth?
I just did (Jesus, God illustrated the argument)  Now we are waiting for it to sink in with you.

If you can't give solid proof there is ethical reasons, than we can only assume malevolent intent
The claim is yours to prove: that any evidence of propaganda and sensationalism (God appearing to Moses as a burning bush, for example) is necessarily a lie and proves that some [undefined] opposite must be true.  Your argument has more holes in it than your socks.
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@Incel-chud
Cool story bro
oromagi
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@Incel-chud
I.m not understanding...
I know buddy

I don't think he would lie about a meeting with the CIA.
Don't know why you would think that.  Ventura is a famous  fake news machine. For example, he believes the Bilderbergs invented COVID to wipe out the world's population- apparently not understanding that the Bilderberg Hotel is a place that hosts an annual economic summit.  Certainly, if COVID was engineered to wipe out the world's population it was not well engineered.

Anybody interested in the truth should assume that anything Ventura claims is false until proven by some reliable source of information.  Ventura is never, ever a reliable source of information on any subject.


They shouldn't be analyzing American elections. It creates a grey area which can be constantly encroached on and lead to election interference.
uh-huh.  And in this "grey area" metaphor what would black and what would be white?  Grey area suggests a poorly defined demarcation between at least two conditions.


Polytheist-Witch
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@FLRW
I'm not a mod dip shit. Case you haven't noticed it's okay to talk kids here. Besides you're an atheist you'll be fine.
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@Polytheist-Witch
@badger

(Sounding just like Joey Tribbiani, FLRW says to Poly),   "How you Doin'?" 
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@FLRW
Yeap sexual assault is funny. So is talking kids. Atheists rock.
Incel-chud
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@oromagi
I just did (Jesus, God illustrated the argument)  Now we are waiting for it to sink in with you.
That's not an argument for why it is good. It's an argument that Jesus and God engaged in it, which requires me to believe 2 things, that in these instances that they did something good and that, they did these things or even existed at all. This is not how you debate is it?

he believes the Bilderbergs invented COVID to wipe out the world's population- apparently not understanding that the Bilderberg Hotel is a place that hosts an annual economic summit. 
That is likely untrue, but let's say he has crazy beliefs, that speaks to his ability to analyze situations, not his ability to honestly recall past events.

They shouldn't be analyzing American elections. It creates a grey area which can be constantly encroached on and lead to election interference.
uh-huh.  And in this "grey area" metaphor what would black and what would be white?  Grey area suggests a poorly defined demarcation between at least two conditions.

The poorly defined area would be in how the intelligence community is allowed to participate in elections, if at all. They should only be used to secure an election prior to one occurring. gathering intelligence about possible election interference, prior to an election occurring. What happens here is that if we give them too long of a leash, some future terrible leader could abuse power. and have them interfere with elections, intimidate sitting politicians etc. I want to not only entirely eliminate corruption, but any possibility of corruption as well.
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@oromagi
Your naivety about the bilderburg group is embarrassing. They denied this group even existed until like 7 years ago. 8 years ago, you would have called their existence a conspiracy theory.
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@Incel-chud

That's not an argument for why it is good.
Why would I need to argue that propaganda and sensationalism are good?  I'm only pointing out that everybody does it all the time so it is irrational for you to assume every time somebody engages in either of these commonplace activities, the opposite of what they say must be true.

 This is not how you debate is it?
Reasoning is how I beat you in multiple debates, yes.

let's say he has crazy beliefs, that speaks to his ability to analyze situations, not his ability to honestly recall past events.
crazy beliefs are not evidence of analytic prowess- exactly the opposite is true.

The poorly defined area would be in how the intelligence community is allowed to participate in elections,
They aren't.   Studying an making predictions is not participation.


Incel-chud
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@oromagi
Why would I need to argue that propaganda and sensationalism are good?  I'm only pointing out that everybody does it all the time so it is irrational for you to assume every time somebody engages in either of these commonplace activities, the opposite of what they say must be true.
If everyone does it, than everyone is evil.

I'm actually using the golden rule to analyze this here. I know that I would never use propaganda or sensationalism to push the truth. It makes no sense. The truth doesn't need help. It just is, and nothing can defeat it.

Reasoning is how I beat you in multiple debates, yes.
It's actually because I get banned every debate, I get lazy and you argue for truisms because you are too cowardly to have a debate on equal ground. You argue stupid shit like "bigfoot is unlikely to be real", and manage to win because despite your sub par arguments, your opponents start off on unequal grounding because they are left to defend bullshit. We also have the issue on this site where even when I give a debate my best, I can't win because their is an overt bias towards normative ethics here as well normative positions. This is not like DDO where the superior debater usually wins. Here it is the person who plays better to the judges that wins. I'm actually about to drop debate entirely and just judge debates when I have time, so that way I can push the site to judge more fairly.

crazy beliefs are not evidence of analytic prowess- exactly the opposite is true.
off topic. Jesse ventura claimed to meet with CIA (or some other american intelligence agency) after being elected to office. This has nothing to do with his analytical skills and everything to do with whether he is an honest witness. It is legitimately possible to be both crazy, and an honest person. It doesn't appear his conspiracy theories are a result of delusions, but more a result on his distrust of institutions. From his wording it also seems he doesn't take the conspiracies too seriously, despite the fact he enjoys talking about them

They aren't.   Studying an making predictions is not participation.
Interrogating people for winning could come across as intimidating. It is unethical. This is particularly the case when it comes to questioning outsider or anti-establishment politicians. Also it appears the CIA has admitted the Ventura meeting occurred https://www.mprnews.org/story/2008/01/03/jessecia . However it's kinda obvious it's unlikely to be something he lied about.
oromagi
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@Incel-chud
I know that I would never use propaganda or sensationalism to push the truth. It makes no sense. The truth doesn't need help. It just is, and nothing can defeat it.
Who do you think you are talking to, chud?  Your take on the Miami Apartment Bldg collapse last summer was "cheap jews get what they deserve"  Your only approach to every topic is sensational propaganda.

It's actually because I get banned every debate, I get lazy and you argue for truisms because you are too cowardly to have a debate on equal ground. 
Keep telling yourself that and I would totally debate the existence of bigfoot with you while your rating is still high enough to score some points out of.

, and an honest person.
But Ventura is a famously dishonest person- not just stupid or wrong but lying under oath about talking shit about Navy SEALS at a Navy SEALS' funeral in front of that dead man's mother.  Just stupid, anti-social, believe any conspiracy anytime idiocy.  If you use Ventura as your sole source on any topic, you will be proved wrong every time.  You might as well use the Tiger King or Trump as a source of information.  He's just another show-biz whack job.

Interrogating people for winning could come across as intimidating. It is unethical. This is particularly the case when it comes to questioning outsider or anti-establishment politicians. Also it appears the CIA has admitted the Ventura meeting occurred https://www.mprnews.org/story/2008/01/03/jessecia . However it's kinda obvious it's unlikely to be something he lied about.
I believe that a CIA officer met with Ventura to discuss mutual interests.  I don't believe 23 CIA were hiding in Statehouse basement as Ventura claims and even Ventura's own communications director seems to deny.  It's just obvious, paranoid horsehit.

oromagi
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@Incel-chud
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Your naivety about the bilderburg group is embarrassing. They denied this group even existed until like 7 years ago. 8 years ago, you would have called their existence a conspiracy theory.
False.  Phyllis Schlafly was making the same alt-right conspiracy claims about the Bilderberg group in 1964.  The whole idea is to promote America's influence and reputation in Europe which is why America's enemies hate and fear it.
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@oromagi
The whole idea is to promote America's influence and reputation in Europe which is why America's enemies hate and fear it.

I do have some sources that say that there is divisions inside the NWO movement a small segment wanting America to be the leader in a tighter global community. Certainly that is preferable to an NWO where America is an equal partner. It is not superior to the sovereignty of every nation though. I'd like to see some evidence that the bilderburg group is not Europeans dictating to Americans what to do as opposed to your suggestion it is about America leading the globe.

But Ventura is a famously dishonest person- not just stupid or wrong but lying under oath about talking shit about Navy SEALS at a Navy SEALS' funeral in front of that dead man's mother.
The Jury did not think he was lying under oath. Chris Kyle claimed to have punched him in the face. It looks like Ventura proved this was bullshit and won 1.8 million from it. I think Chris Kyle over all is a proven bullshit artist and his war hero claims are easily disproven bullshit, particularly his kill count and the incident with Ventura who by the way was also in the Navy and supposedly an American hero for going overseas and putting his life on the line for Jewish foreign policy interests.

Who do you think you are talking to, chud?  Your take on the Miami Apartment Bldg collapse last summer was "cheap jews get what they deserve"  Your only approach to every topic is sensational propaganda.

I keep arguing with you, because I always think there is a chance you will be able to analyze my thinking and correct my presuppositions. You came close when you criticized the fact I think sensationalism and propaganda  are the tools of liars, and brought up Jesus. However that is not going to persuade me because it doesn't address my premises for thinking that, only my conclusion.

I don't know if you realize this, but my priority on this site is not to teach, it isn't to spread information, it isn't even to debate, though I am better at it then you. It is simply to expose the parts of my thinking I think are most likely to be wrong. If I thought I was right, I wouldn't even share the opinion. The cheap Jews did not get what they deserve. maybe there is a lesson about being cheap in there, though.

I engage with you, because I sense you can unwrap that premise and tell me how it is wrong, as I intuitively sense that my premise is wrong. I just can't prove it.

Perhaps people can be honest in their general opinion, and engage in dishonest tactics like sensationalism and propaganda. However I would have to understand the reasoning behind somebody with the correct opinion doing so, to give them credit for being honest. Part of what I base my belief on is that, honesty should be the most important thing. If the truth is laid out, it shouldn't need to be sold or wrapped in pretty little bows. It should be shown. How am I wrong to think this?

If you want my analysis of the Ukraine situation, than it is as follows.

Russia desires a buffer zone between Nato and itself as well as access to the black see, so they can export oil for cheaper. Nato has made a strategic error by pushing too hard to bring Ukraine on board which has made Putin feel like his hand was forced. Nato should not have pushed so hard, and Putin should not have mounted an invasion.

Here is what we can pretty much assume will happen.

1. Putin will retreat from Ukraine after making his point and having zelensky promise to not join Nato, parts of the separatist regions will either be annexxed or create new states so the Ukraine can continue to be independent while Russia maintains a buffer zone by using the separatist regions.

2. Sanctions will be lifted on Russia when countries like Germany who depend entirely on foreign oil and energy push back against russian sanctions because it also harms their economy.

3. Russia will declare victory over Ukraine meanwhile Zelensky will be painted as a hero for having defeated Russia diplomatically, despite russia walking away with everything they wanted.

I think this is a very nuanced thing and I am supposed to be cheering for NATO, but I think the fact everyone is playing politics while a bunch of people are dying is disgusting. All sides should have seen this coming and could have resolved it diplomatically, sparing a bunch of lives, particularly the lives of innocent people just trying to live their day to day lives.

You ultimately are an imperialist for democracy and would like to see it spread. I think democracy is an illusion and the wealthy pull all the strings. I sense you come from the wealthy class, which is why you are fine with that sort of arrangement, but I am less fond of being ruled by rich people who are out of touch with reality and have zero empathy for the poor.

I have read several of Maddeline Albright's books, so I understand your POV. She gives a better defense of those exact principles than you do btw, and yet her analysis falls short because it is overly pragmatic, which is why she gets into hot water for saying the invasion of Iraq was worth all the civilian lives took. She gives pragmatic reasoning, but not moral. The only time she gives reasoning that is not pragmatic is when she talks about refugees. She imagines America has a duty to the world, instead of having a duty to it's citizens. Her justification is merely that she thinks spreading democracy is the right thing to do.

In her writings she differentiates between fascists and tyrants. Fascists as the leaders who are for the people and have the crowds stand behind them. Tyrants are another repressive type of ruler who uses doesn't have large swathes of citizens behind him, but just the government. Perhaps she spends her time ranting about fascists because she belongs to the ruling class and is fine with tyrants, perhaps she thinks tyranny is no longer a threat to the world.

ALl I know is that you have done very little to show me the mistakes in my reasoning by offering merely an alternate conclusion to mine instead of engaging in understanding my argument and addressing the premises
Incel-chud
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@oromagi
The American government says Russian soldiers are your friend, and that they fight for freedom.  https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc230/m1/1/
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@Incel-chud
1. Putin will retreat from Ukraine after making his point and having zelensky promise to not join Nato,
Zelensky filed NATO application today, looks like Finland, Sweden, and perhaps Ireland will all join NATO as well.

2. Sanctions will be lifted on Russia when countries like Germany who depend entirely on foreign oil and energy push back against russian sanctions because it also harms their economy.
Germany today massively increased its military spending.  Germany is preparing for war with Russia. 



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@oromagi
As far as I’m concerned, questioning someone’s reasoning for being on a site is in a similar vein of asking them to leave. No, I don’t think users like Dr.Franklin who are cheering for Russia are anti-free speech or anti-debate, they’re just horribly wrong about a war.
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@Mharman
No, I don’t think users like Dr.Franklin who are cheering for Russia are anti-free speech or anti-debate, they’re just horribly wrong about a war.
Dr.Franklin is not cheering for Russia.  Russia seems to be just as disturbed by Putin's unhinged  aggression and nuclear threatening as every nation on earth.  Dr.Franklin is cheering for Putin who is, beyond threatening WW3, is systematically interfering with free and fair speech world wide, including aggressive disruption and disinformation campaigns in my own country.  Free Speech has no greater living enemy on this planet than Vladimir Putin.  You can love debate or you can love Putin but if you are cheering for one of these you are the sworn enemy of the other.

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@Incel-chud
 I wonder why Putin would want to stop the Ukraine from putting Nukes of hostile powers just outside of his border.
Still wondering the same thing myself. What do you think?

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@oromagi
 Free Speech has no greater living enemy on this planet than Vladimir Putin. 
Well, that's excluding the leaders of Middle East and China (let's not even call North Korea a genuine country, it's a hellhole posing as a legitimate nation).