PRO DEBATE MEANS ANTI-AUTHORITARIANISM / PRO DEBATE MEANS ANTI-PUTIN

Author: oromagi

Posts

Total: 97
Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
-->
@oromagi
If Putin is anti debate, why is the Western press refusing to address his arguments and instead sensationalizing things and seem to be speaking to the lowest common denominator?

lets do a simple cost benefit analysis of the ukraine invasion

1. non intervention

possible ramifications. Literally none, ukraine just belongs to Russia and there is zero effect on western nations.

2. intervention

possible ramifications. All out nuclear war, eradicating most of the life on the planet

Those are both worst case scenarios, but when we look at there being zero benefit to interfering, we can see that Ukraine should not be supported.
Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
-->
@oromagi
Men with big dicks don't make professional hockey players pretend that a 5'6" 63 year old KGB agent could score 7 goals on them
That seems very interesting. Citation please
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,356
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Incel-chud
Well, intervention might discourage aggressive actions by countries,
Encourage self rule, democratic states, similar to Western States.
Also sense of duty by some, when they see others in trouble, or acted against unjustly.

Sure 'maybe nukes,
But if countries get aggressive, maybe that leads to nukes too.
Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
-->
@Lemming
Was Putin not a soldier?
He was a soldier as well, and a war hero. He almost died on the battlefield and is only alive due to his stunning courage and big heart
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Incel-chud
Not sure it is wise of him to admit it if he is. You cannot escape Putin's wrath in Russia nor hide your website's contents and full private info.
Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
-->
@RationalMadman
I'll delete the post just in case, but I assure you I am correct
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Incel-chud
Wow you are a Putin apologist, imagine if you were the website president at this point.
Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
-->
@RationalMadman
Here is my thought process. What if the media is lying and Russia is the good guys. I can test this theory by seeing if they are doing in depth analysis or doing something more akin to propaganda.


Since they are repeating the same 5 or 6 phrases repeatedly and refusing to make any in depth analysis and keep all analysis very simple, it means they must be hiding something.

P1- honest people do not engage in sensationalism or propaganda
p2- western media uses sensationalism and propaganda
c1- western media is dishonest
p3- If somebody is dishonest, they are lying
p4- A lie neccessarily means the opposite is true
c2- The media is stating that Putin is basically Hitler, so the opposite must be true
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,356
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Incel-chud
Eh,
Being honest isn't so tied into being a somewhat decent person.
Most everyone lies,
And during war, politics, most everyone cheats, plays the room.

I've been reading a fair bit,
And the Russian propaganda looks 'far more forced than ours,
By forced I mean ridiculous lies and perspectives.
Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
-->
@Lemming
I would like to see their propaganda to know. Honestly, propaganda is evil and should never be used by any country, at all ever and under any circumstances.
Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
-->
@Lemming
Actually Russian propaganda seems like a juust a more intelligent sober analysis of current events than western media https://tass.com/
Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
Putin's hockey playing is actually impressive LOL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgbI55HdqQs

I would have did the same thing if Biden was playing me in Hockey, and let him get some points
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,758
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@Incel-chud
I would like to see their propaganda to know.
It's relatively simple, Putin just says that the 2014 revolution (the real reason for Russia's annexation of Crimea) was a bunch of right-wing neo-nazis and that the current Ukraine government is illegitimate. Watch the speech he gave when announcing the invasion, he calls for the de-militarization and de-nazificarion of Ukraine. Pro-Russian media has done little to add to these points.
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,758
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@Incel-chud
I would have did the same thing if Biden was playing me in Hockey, and let him get some points
I mean, I probably would have too but to Oromagi's original point in post 24... Would that make Biden look like he had a big dick?
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Incel-chud
-->@oromagi
If Putin is anti debate, why is the Western press refusing to address his arguments and instead sensationalizing things and seem to be speaking to the lowest common denominator?
Literally every major news outlet in the western world addressed Putin's argument within the hour.  
Just try reading any of them legally in Russia.

Why is Russia attacking Ukraine? Here are 5 reasons Putin and others have given for the invasion
Kelsey Vlamis 
Feb 24, 2022, 8:55 PM

Russian forces attacked Ukraine early Thursday morning, launching a large-scale and unprovoked invasion that was feared for weeks.
The Russian military entered Ukraine from several directions, with troops headed toward its capital, Kyiv, and attacked with airstrikes and shelling. Ukrainian authorities said dozens of troops on both sides and some Ukrainian civilians were killed amid the fighting.
President Joe Biden and other Western leaders have criticized Russian President Vladimir Putin, calling his country's actions a violation of international law. On Thursday afternoon, Biden announced new, harsher sanctions against Russia that he said were designed "to maximize the long-term impact on Russia and minimize the impact on the United States and our allies."
Here are some reasons Putin has given for why Russia invaded Ukraine — some of which are based on falsehoods — along with what the US and NATO have said about his motivations.

  • Concern over NATO's eastward expansion
Putin has expressed concern over the expansion of NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, into Eastern Europe and former Soviet Republics, especially Ukraine.
NATO is a political and military alliance that dates back to 1949 and consists of 30 member countries, including the US, Canada, the UK, France, Belgium, and many other European nations. NATO membership is open to any European country that meets its criteria. The alliance has said Ukraine is among three nations that are considered aspiring members.
Putin has criticized NATO for expanding eastward since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. He has said NATO enlisting nations on Russia's borders represents a provocation, though NATO insists it is a defensive alliance and not a threat to Russia.
In a speech Thursday morning, Putin said the invasion of Ukraine was an act of self-defense against NATO expansion.

  • Putin baselessly claims Ukraine is committing genocide against ethnic Russians
Putin has also accused Ukraine of committing genocide and called its government a Nazi regime, claims for which there is no evidence.
Earlier this month, Putin claimed genocide was being committed against ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, particularly in the Donbas region, where Kremlin-backed rebels have been fighting with Ukrainian forces since 2014.
On Monday, Putin recognized Donetsk and Luhansk, two separatist regions in the Donbas, as independent states and ordered Russian troops in for a "peacekeeping" operation, a move that was widely seen as a pretext for war.
In his Thursday speech announcing the invasion, Putin again repeated the claims of genocide, saying he was seeking the "denazification" of Ukraine, a country whose democratically elected leader, President Volodymyr Zelensky, is Jewish.

  • Putin has also falsely asserted that Ukraine isn't a real country. 

In a lengthy speech Monday, Putin claimed Ukraine wasn't a real country: "Ukraine has never had its own authentic statehood. There has never been a sustainable statehood in Ukraine."
He argued Ukraine was created by the Soviet Union under its first leader, Vladimir Lenin, despite overwhelming evidence of Ukrainian culture and history that predates the Soviet Union. Putin also insisted that Ukraine is part of Russia.
"Let me emphasize once again that Ukraine for us is not just a neighboring country. It is an integral part of our own history, culture, spiritual space," he said.
Putin has also incorrectly stated that Russia gave Ukraine the right to break away, when in fact, the Ukrainian people voted overwhelmingly for independence in a 1991 referendum, The Washington Post reported. For the referendum vote, 84% of eligible voters went to the polls, and more than 90% voted in favor of independence.

  • Dubious concerns over nuclear weapons
After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine voluntarily gave up the nuclear weapons in its territory in exchange for a guarantee of security by the US, the UK, and Russia.
Putin, however, has expressed concern that Ukraine has the knowledge and desire to obtain nuclear weapons, thus posing a threat to Moscow. While there is no evidence that Ukraine is trying to acquire nuclear weapons, The New York Times reported that Putin had spewed conspiracy theories to talk up the threat and use it to justify an invasion.
"If Ukraine acquires weapons of mass destruction, the situation in the world and in Europe will drastically change, especially for us, for Russia," Putin said Tuesday. "We cannot but react to this real danger, all the more so since, let me repeat, Ukraine's Western patrons may help it acquire these weapons to create yet another threat to our country."
US officials and NATO have repeatedly said there are no plans to arm Ukraine with nuclear weapons.

  • Putin may want to build back a Russian empire
Another reason that some say Russia is invading Ukraine is one that Putin has never outright said: to build back an empire and restore the control Russia, or the Soviet Union, had over Europe and Asia during the Cold War.
Biden said as much Thursday in comments on Putin's invasion of Ukraine: "He has much larger ambitions than Ukraine. He wants to, in fact, reestablish the former Soviet Union. That's what this is about."
"I think that his ambitions are completely contrary to the place where the rest of the world has arrived," he added.
The US ambassador to the United Nations made similar comments earlier this week, saying Putin wanted to go back to the days of the Russian Empire, which preceded the Soviet Union.

"That includes all of Ukraine. It includes Finland. It includes Belarus and Georgia and Moldova. Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan. Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Lithuania. Latvia and Estonia. It includes parts of Poland and Turkey," Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield said at a UN Security Council meeting.
"In essence, Putin wants the world to travel back in time, to a time before the United Nations, to a time when empires ruled the world. But the rest of the world has moved forward. It is not 1919, it is 2022," she added.



oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@RationalMadman
-->@Incel-chud
Wow you are a Putin apologist, imagine if you were the website president at this point.
I wouldn't characterize Chud as a "Putin apologist" so much as a "sloppy bottom for any strongman who ever killed a Jew."  Chud doesn't do democracy, he believes we should wait around for our marching orders from what he call the "great men of history."  So long as Putin is killing the right sorts of people, Chud is eager to please him.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Incel-chud
P1- honest people do not engage in sensationalism or propaganda
False.  I am an incredibly honest fellow and I engage in sensationalism and propaganda all the time.  Honest Abe Lincoln was so damn honest they called him honest Abe.....  Did Lincoln engage in sensationalism and propaganda?  Of course he did.

Your first premise fails.  Therefore your conclusion "western media is dishonest" remains an unproved generalization.  

p4- A lie neccessarily means the opposite is true

If every lie necessarily means the opposite is true than it must first be true that every lie has an opposite but that's not so.    Not every lie has some perfect and obvious semantic mirror image.

c2- The media is stating that Putin is basically Hitler, so the opposite must be true
case in point.  you fail to even state what the opposite of  the metaphor "Putin is Hitler" might be.  

  • Putin is Gandhi?
  • HItler is Putin? 
  • Putin is Churchill
Your reasoning is so tortured you should shoot it now to prevent further suffering.


RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Incel-chud
I think you're letting trolling hit your actual brain's thinking. One thing is trolling, another is believing the BS you type.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Incel-chud
Take a visit to Russia, financially I would advise making it a one-way ticket as you'll waste money otherwise.

Go there and say and do the things you say and do in you real life, Wylted. I give you 48 hours before you're never heard of again. I recommend not punching somebody doing your vehicle repo there, it won't end so painless for you.
Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
It's relatively simple, Putin just says that the 2014 revolution (the real reason for Russia's annexation of Crimea) was a bunch of right-wing neo-nazis and that the current Ukraine government is illegitimate. Watch the speech he gave when announcing the invasion, he calls for the de-militarization and de-nazificarion of Ukraine. Pro-Russian media has done little to add to these points.
Crimea voted to be part of Russia btw. I wonder why Putin would want to stop the Ukraine from putting Nukes of hostile powers just outside of his border.
Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
-->
@oromagi
Literally every major news outlet in the western world addressed Putin's argument within the hour.  
Just try reading any of them legally in Russia.
I've been watching CNN.

False.  I am an incredibly honest fellow and I engage in sensationalism and propaganda all the time.  Honest Abe Lincoln was so damn honest they called him honest Abe.....  Did Lincoln engage in sensationalism and propaganda?  Of course he did.
If the truth is on your side, why would you need to do those things, let's think of possible motives of sensationalism and propaganda. When we look at the possible motives they are as follows

1. get people to believe your narrative, propaganda needs to be done here, only if you have no real evidence to back up your position, otherwise you would just do in depth analysis and share it

2. sensationalism itself is a lie, it means making something more exciting than it actually is. it's the definition of a lie.


If every lie necessarily means the opposite is true than it must first be true that every lie has an opposite but that's not so.    Not every lie has some perfect and obvious semantic mirror image.

Where an opposite can be identified

case in point.  you fail to even state what the opposite of  the metaphor "Putin is Hitler" might be.  

  • Putin is Gandhi?
  • HItler is Putin? 
  • Putin is Churchill
In this instance, it would mean that Putin is not the incarnation of evil, but perhaps a human like the rest of us who has his good and bad sides, makes errors in judgement and is just trying to do what is right by his people. He might even be a deeply flawed human or leader, but that wouldn't make him the incarnation of evil, and the attempt to dehumanize him, certainly wouldn't help diplomats relieve tensions and negotiate effectively.
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,758
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@Incel-chud
I wonder why Putin would want to stop the Ukraine from putting Nukes of hostile powers just outside of his border.
Why do you think?
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Incel-chud
-->@oromagi

If the truth is on your side, why would you need to do those things, let's think of possible motives of sensationalism and propaganda. When we look at the possible motives they are as follows

1. get people to believe your narrative, propaganda needs to be done here, only if you have no real evidence to back up your position, otherwise you would just do in depth analysis and share it

2. sensationalism itself is a lie, it means making something more exciting than it actually is. it's the definition of a lie.
  • Jesus told parables to tell his narrative in the absence of any real evidence to back up his position.  Jesus sensationalized his objection to merchants in the temple by whipping the moneymen and overturning their tables.
  • God engaged in sensational propaganda when his giant ghost hand wrote on the wall at Belshazzar's feast.  MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.
Using your very silly,  insanely absolutist formula, you are calling God and Jesus liars.

[Putin]  is just trying to do what is right by his people.
Objectively false.  Putin, the richest man on Earth, officially reports for taxes  a new worth of $130,000 from this fabulous palace on the Black Sea:


Russia has the highest infant mortality rate of any developed country. Putin's estimated legal tax obligation alone could triple or quadruple the Russian budget for infant healthcare.    





oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@badger
-->@oromagi
Can you not admit that the dude is impressive even in a diabolical sort of way?
I think you are overlooking the real stud muffin in this war- Zelensky.

Here is Zelensky standing in front of parliament with his cabinet on the front lines of battle while planes are dropping bombs saying, "Here we are, we aren't going anywhere."


Here is Putin with his cabinet on the same day, super social-distancing since he doesn't dare wear a mask for the FOX News crowd: 


Which of these figures is objectively cooler, more impressive, bigger-dicked?
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@badger
Yesterday, the US offered to evac Zelensky out of Kyiv to an undisclosed, secure location.  Zelensky  replied,

"I need ammo, not a ride"

Whatever happens next, Zelensky has already earned himself national hero status. 
Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
-->
@oromagi
  • Jesus told parables to tell his narrative in the absence of any real evidence to back up his position.  Jesus sensationalized his objection to merchants in the temple by whipping the moneymen and overturning their tables.
  • God engaged in sensational propaganda when his giant ghost hand wrote on the wall at Belshazzar's feast.  MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.
Using your very silly,  insanely absolutist formula, you are calling God and Jesus liars.

You are ignoring my premises and arguing with my conclusion.  I am asking what the motives are for sensationalism and propaganda, when ideally the truth should stand on it's own

Here is Zelensky standing in front of parliament with his cabinet on the front lines of battle while planes are dropping bombs saying, "Here we are, we aren't going anywhere."
He is literally an actor.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Incel-chud
You are ignoring my premises and arguing with my conclusion.  I am asking what the motives are for sensationalism and propaganda, when ideally the truth should stand on it's own
No I trashed your twisted premises and your absurd conclusion. Nobody expects you to understand that.

He is literally an actor.
Donald Trump
Ronald Reagan
Arnold Schwarzenegger
Alan Autry
Rex Bell
Sonny Bono
Bob Dornan
Clint Eastwood
Fred Thompson
Shirley Temple
Jesse Ventura
etc

If you disqualify professional actors from politics there is no party in world history that would lose more members than the US Republican Party. 


Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
-->
@oromagi
If you disqualify professional actors from politics there is no party in world history that would lose more members than the US Republican Party. 
Speaking of Jesse Ventura, since you like democracy so much. Did you know that when he became governor the CIA met up with him and interrogated him on why he won, when their models showed he should have lost.

Why is the CIA tracking who should win in elections?

Why is the CIA intimidating people, when they gain public office, if the results were unexpected?

Yes, if actors are politicians it should be highly suspicious. It doesn't make sense that they are so common in politics, especially when looking at heads of states. I also suspect that Reagan had dementia and everything he said was scripted, just like BIden. Even Reagan's supposed off the cuff remarks are rumored to be scripted. It shouldn't make you comfortable that people like Al frankin win office, we should be ultra suspect that they are plants. The fact you bring yourself comfort that because america has plants than it is fine for Ukraine to have them is ridiculous. It's actually anti-democratic
Incel-chud
Incel-chud's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 434
2
3
8
Incel-chud's avatar
Incel-chud
2
3
8
No I trashed your twisted premises and your absurd conclusion. Nobody expects you to understand that.
Give me a detailed case on why propaganda and sensationalism should be used as opposed to the truth?

If you can't give solid proof there is ethical reasons, than we can only assume malevolent intent
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Incel-chud
The Russian State media uses none of those, it's so honest and amazing and trustworthy...