PRO DEBATE MEANS ANTI-AUTHORITARIANISM / PRO DEBATE MEANS ANTI-PUTIN

Author: oromagi
oromagi
Democracy
stop Putin
authoritarianism

Posts

Total: 97
Topic's author
#1
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
Just a reminder to all those members of DebateArt advocating for Putin's invasion of Ukraine that debate is an invention and an instrument of DEMOCRACY. 

Dictators, by definition, can never permit entirely free speech and without free speech the pretense of fair debate is cruelly mocked. 

Vladimir Putin specifically is the sworn enemy of fair political debate, poisoning to death those who out argue him, and the greatest contemporary threat to free speech globally, interfering  by unlawful subterfuge with democratic processes worldwide.  Ukraine won its freedom from Russia in 1991 after suffering the calamity of Chernobyl- a disaster who's root cause was discovered to be in the absence of free speech and the fear of reprisals that prevented engineers from speaking out about known system failures.  The result of that suppression of free speech was 4,000 dead and the collapse of the Soviet Empire. 

Unlike Russia, Ukraine has fought hard to preserve her democracy through the Orange Revolution in 2004 and the Euromaidan Revolution of 2014.  Ukraine has earned her freedom of speech and independence from Russia.

You can endorse the free and fair practice of debating or you can endorse Putin's unlawful invasion of the democratic Republic of Ukraine but you can't do both and remain ideologically consistent.

If you believe that debaters and debating should be free and fair throughout the world then you oppose that belief's most potent enemy Putin, plain and simple.
#2
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,638
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@oromagi
Why post this in the main forum, though? I agree that Putin is a huge world evil for the invasion, but I don't see how reaching outside of the politics forum helps anything.
#3
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
This website is owned by a Russian (or so he claims) so be careful what you say. 
#4
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,638
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@RationalMadman
Given how much some members openly despise Russia, I think they would've been banned already if Mike wanted to. Besides, it'd be a business suicide for Mike to ban anyone over such a thing. I know for sure I would leave the site if someone got banned for such a thing; I just have faith in Mike.
Topic's author
#5
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Mharman
-->@oromagi
Why post this in the main forum, though? I agree that Putin is a huge world evil for the invasion, but I don't see how reaching outside of the politics forum helps anything.
Well, that's exactly my point.   The DebateArt.com forum is for Topics related to DebateArt.com and the subject under discussion is DebateArt.com's identity as an inherently democratic institution.    Dictators like Putin want the opportunity to suppress venues like DebateArt.com and if we debaters want venues like DebateArt.com to survive in future, we need to recognize the potential impact and consequences of letting Russia's war crimes  today stand unpunished tomorrow
#6
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,438
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@oromagi
Wouldn't this site be more like a benevolent dictatorship?
A site that has an owner, that 'allows feedback and influence by the users,
Though I suppose the individuals being able to leave at will, takes away a fair bit of owner leverage,
Given that they'd want a healthy, honest, active site.
#7
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,638
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@oromagi
Then I think the issue in maintaining site freedom is with this, not with Russia's invasion of Ukraine, as evil as it is.
Topic's author
#8
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@RationalMadman
This website is owned by a Russian (or so he claims) so be careful what you say. 
Well, I assume most Russians believe in free speech and debate as much as I do, more so perhaps given in its sad absence in their homeland.  I have certainly been vocal about my contempt and fear of Putin and yes, as a democrat I do ultimately hold the body of Russian citizens accountable for their failures to uphold democracy and oust that tyrant.  They've done it before, with and without violence, I am confident that Russians can and should overthrow the Tyrant Putin and end their warmongering in Ukraine immediately.

I have never received any word of caution or discouragement regarding my views from any representative of this site and I'm confident that my free speech here will be permitted to continue unimpeded.

#9
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,758
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
"Opposition will be poisoned, survivors will be thrown in jail"
Topic's author
#10
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Mharman
-->@oromagi
Then I think the issue in maintaining site freedom is with this, not with Russia's invasion of Ukraine, as evil as it is.

Stopping Putin works to improve both of our concerns.
#11
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,638
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@oromagi
Stopping Putin works to improve both of our concerns.
I agree. I just don't like the usage of the main forum for this when we have a politics forum. Putting it in the main forum gives off an undertone of "If you disagree with me on this war, get off the site."
Topic's author
#12
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Lemming
-->@oromagi
Wouldn't this site be more like a benevolent dictatorship?
A site that has an owner, that 'allows feedback and influence by the users,
Though I suppose the individuals being able to leave at will, takes away a fair bit of owner leverage,
Given that they'd want a healthy, honest, active site.
Well, as I've said I don't consider any kind of dictatorship compatible with the free speech necessary to make debating fair.

Our site specifically emphasizes its independence and community-driven development  on its front page so no, I don't interpret that as a dictatorship.

Community-driven
Due to being completely independent, we have the ultimate freedom to set our own goals and priorities, that is why the community plays such an important role in the project's development
In fact, I am investigating the limits of our community's authority in relation to the limits of moderation authority right now in my 100th debate with our chief moderator, Whiteflame:


I hope you will give it a read when we are done!
Topic's author
#13
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Mharman
-->@oromagi
Stopping Putin works to improve both of our concerns.
I agree. I just don't like the usage of the main forum for this when we have a politics forum. Putting it in the main forum gives off an undertone of "If you disagree with me on this war, get off the site."
Such is the power of FORUM selection to persuade.  I think if we can tolerate use of that Forum for flame wars and subjects like this:


(to which I notice you added comments without any concern about FORUM integrity)

then a discussion about a core threat to the heart and soul of free and fair  debating supersedes mere political considerations.

I don't know about undertones, but my rhetorical intent here is not "get off this site (in a democracy all voices may speak)"  but rather "If you disagree with me on this, then what the fuck are you even doing here?"  Questioning another debaters intent is a far cry from asking a debater to leave.
#14
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
I think we can all agree that Putin is a bad guy. But he's also kinda cool. 
#15
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,801
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@badger

OMG, did someone say you looked like Putin?
#16
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@FLRW
I get Connell from Normal People like 3 times a week. One time I got Ramsey from Game of Thrones, didn't like that one. Michael Fassbender another time. I suspect my mom thinks I look like Tom Cruise, although she never said it out loud, just gave me this weird fond look one time after telling me she adored him. 

Come on, he's kinda cool though. He's the right side of tyrant at least.  
#17
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Spy that took over a country. It's not like it's a totally backwards, brainwashed, helpless country either. Has ruled with an iron fist for 20 years.

The man is kinda epic. I'm just saying.
#18
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Is war bad? Sure. 
#19
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,438
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@badger
I think people 'do like and respect,
Power, competence, ability, so on, so forth.
#20
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Big swinging dick respects big swinging dick. 
#21
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,801
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@badger

Cool, people used to say I looked like Robert Redford. Now I look like this picture of Einstein in my profile. 


#22
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@FLRW
You should have left in the bit about the young ladies, you old dog you. 
#23
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,801
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@badger

LOL, I didn't want to get banned by Poly.
Topic's author
#24
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@badger
You have a very different definition of cool and big dick than I do. 

  • Cool men don't make themselves the richest man in the world while calling themselves leader of a population with a median income of $450/year
  • Men with big dicks don't poison their competition
  • Cool men don't threaten to end all life on earth if they don't get things their way
  • Men with big dicks don't make professional hockey players pretend that a 5'6" 63 year old KGB agent could score 7 goals on them
  • Cool men don't need to rig elections
  • Men with big dicks don't award themselves peace prizes for bombing Chechnya into the 14th century

Topic's author
#25
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@FLRW
Cool, people used to say I looked like Robert Redford. Now I look like this picture of Einstein in my profile. 

The older I get the more I look like Steve Bannon.  Words can't express my disappointment.
#26
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,438
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@oromagi
@badger
World leaders 'do make an attempt at building an 'appearance of coolness though.
I'm not saying they 'are cool, or not,
But there's a reason they have people make statues of them, ride horses shirtless, shoot guns, make an effort at witty speech.

There's also the fact that many people respond to tropes such as, A Real Man Is a Killer - TV Tropes,
I'm NOT saying a real man 'is a killer, but that I 'do think it a common view in society,
Thus do people often admire gangsters, criminals, hardened individuals,
As well as conquerors in history, Julius Caesar, Napoleon.

Of course many others admire firemen, people who volunteer to help the needy, people who risk their lives protesting corrupt and oppressive regimes.

. . .
Still, one can look at these videos and see how people might perceive the individuals differently based on their pasts, presents, and assumed characters of the future.
Songs 'are catchy, but I think the videos are making criticisms or points of the individuals as well,
I DON'T mean any of the videos as a glorification of anyone, but to make an argument on people's perceptions of leaders.
#27
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@oromagi
Can you not admit that the dude is impressive even in a diabolical sort of way?
Topic's author
#28
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
As well as conquerors in history, Julius Caesar, Napoleon.

More like Idi Amin than Julius Caesar. 

Caesar and Napoleon were soldiers- they actually stood tall on battlefields after the battle had turned against them and demonstrated their willingness to die for their countrymen.  Putin's specialties are poison and blackmail.  Both generals would have great contempt for a sneak-thief like Putin.

Like Putin, Caesar was the richest man in the world in his lifetime but unlike Putin, Caesar was incredibly generous with his wealth.  Even some of his assassins wept with astonishment when they discovered the sums of money he left in his will to the public enhancement of Rome- literally the beginning of the white marble Rome that we think of- Caesar made that.

Napoleon was a genius of soft power- he redefined the culture, law, and society of Europe.  He invented the Nation state and the French identity.  If you ever wonder why everybody admires the Mona Lisa it is really only because Napoleon admired it first and every art critic in the world followed suit.

Don't compare Putin to Caesar or Napoleon.  Putin is more like Hitler or Stalin- a tyrant who nobody will remember with fondness once he's gone.
Topic's author
#29
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@badger
-->@oromagi
Can you not admit that the dude is impressive even in a diabolical sort of way?
No.  I am 100% sure that it totally sucks to live life as Putin- everybody fears you, nobody really loves you because nobody trusts you, nothing fills that absence of intimacy. 

HItler took cyanide rather than stand up for what he did.
Stalin lay unconscious on the floor in a pool of his own shit for a whole day because he left orders for nobody to wake him and nobody dared risk their life by disobedience.

It sucks to be a diabolical asshole.  Yes you get to drink port wine all day but what's the point if nobody want to drink it with you?
#30
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 3,438
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@oromagi
Was Putin not a soldier?
Hm, maybe KGB doesn't count?
Not sarcasm, I just don't know much about Putin.

Assassination and blackmail are not new,

Time might show, how Putin will face defeat, assuming defeat occurs.

True, I 'have heard Caesar was generous,
His generosity was invaluable in gaining the loyalty of his followers.

And jah, Napoleon did much for France, including conquering, raiding other countries,
Until he did 'too much, lost so much gained, ending on the island of Saint Helena.

A conqueror's a conqueror,
Though some perhaps 'more, than others.
You're wrong about Hitler and Stalin though, I think,
That they are remembered fondly by none.
Not saying I fondly remember them,
Hm, I don't see any Hitler propaganda music. . .
Eh, probably some supporters somewhere if I looked, but not going to.