Russia and Ukraine

Author: Dr.Franklin

Posts

Total: 483
#451
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,552
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@ILikePie5
Trump claims he appointed Bolton to be a contrarian voice— perhaps too contrarian, as we know how that relationship ended. There seem to be, to me at least, several flaws in taking Bolton’s word for it on this… the most glaring one being that Putin still invaded Ukraine with the US in NATO!
#452
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,262
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ILikePie5
You can pick a qualified individual but not agree with them. And Trump personally didn’t pick him. His advisors mainly did.
Does the Buck stop with Trump or not? The greatest president of our lifetimes and he can’t even pick his own National security advisor?

I know for a fact you’re delusional with TDS. Nothing Trump could’ve ever done would’ve been satisfactory to you. Even if he does something good, you say he didn’t do enough.
Because doing something good is not enough to erase all of the bad. President’s are judged by the totality of what they brought to the table. We could go on for days, but the simple fact is that there is almost nothing you could point to as a Trump victory which you would not have gotten from any other Republican candidate. But there are numerous things that only Trump was responsible for. As just one example, the fact that half the country thinks Joe Biden and the democrats stole the election is a Trump and only Trump thing. No other president would have caused that.

There is nothing deranged about understanding this, and our kids and grandkids will definitely understand it.
#453
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,552
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Double_R
And what made this even clearer is the way you continue to duck and dodge when I ask you tell me what you think of Trump cow towing to Putin on the world stage and how you factor that into this discussion. 
I didn’t care for it. It helps when you pose the question honestly, by the way. But obviously there is no pleasing you with any answer of mine, as I stated earlier. Thing is, and there’s no escaping this:  it *evidently* never prompted Putin to invade another country.

When it comes to his actions you expect me to sort through 52 different links to read up on all of Trump’s policy actions
No, I didn’t expect you to do that. I expected you— or, more realistically, anyone caring to read this forum— to see the conceivable possibility of tunnel vision (ie selection of detail to support a biased outlook) in the MSM reporting on Trump’s administration, regarding Russia in this case.

What I expected you to do was to find a way to dismiss most or all of it, and you didn’t disappoint!
Topic's author
#454
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@TheUnderdog
RUSSIA is more right-wing. Not the USSR. 
#455
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,167
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Double_R
Does the Buck stop with Trump or not? The greatest president of our lifetimes and he can’t even pick his own National security advisor?
You clearly don’t know how stuff works in the White House lol. Might I suggest reading up on it first? 

Because doing something good is not enough to erase all of the bad. President’s are judged by the totality of what they brought to the table. We could go on for days, but the simple fact is that there is almost nothing you could point to as a Trump victory which you would not have gotten from any other Republican candidate.
This is demonstrably false. Any other GOP candidate would’ve had us in a new war. Any other GOP candidate wouldn’t have built a wall. I could go on and on. Nobody would killed terrorist Qasim Soleimani. He’s not your average GOP candidate. If 2016 primaries didn’t show you that then you need to rewatch the debates.

But there are numerous things that only Trump was responsible for. As just one example, the fact that half the country thinks Joe Biden and the democrats stole the election is a Trump and only Trump thing. No other president would have caused that.
And there is evidence to support that executive officials in key states within the Election Board changed rules at the last minute because of COVID without express authority from the legislature. 

There is nothing deranged about understanding this, and our kids and grandkids will definitely understand it.
Oh they’ll definitely understand that the 2020 election led to a President even worse than Jimmy Carter in the 70s
#456
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,167
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@cristo71
What I expected you to do was to find a way to dismiss most or all of it, and you didn’t disappoint!
They can’t congratulate Trump on anything. Killing a terrorist who has destroyed the lives of thousands of Americans? How dare he.
#457
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,262
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@cristo71
I didn’t care for it.
A US President takes a foreign dictator’s word over the unanimous conclusion of US intelligence in front of the entire world, and this is all you have to say about it?

Thing is, and there’s no escaping this: it *evidently* never prompted Putin to invade another country.
Actually, logic escapes it. First of all, the US is not the only country in the world. Whether Donald Trump is president is not the one and only thing every world leader thinks about before they decide what is best for their country and whether they should go for it. This is exactly the kind of arrogance that makes so many people around the world hate us, because so many Americans like yourself literally believe the world revolves around us.

Second, no one has a full understanding of why Putin chose this moment. The man is literally delusional.

Third, Trump’s own hand picked National security advisor (the Prez picks the team and is therefore responsible right?) has already shared his view that Putin didn’t do this before because he was counting on Trump to pull the US out of NATO in a second term. This answer makes so much more sense than the silly idea that Putin didn’t do it then because he was so afraid of Trump. As if a world leader’s calculation for war is based on how tough the other guy talks, or whether he uses all caps on Twitter.

No, I didn’t expect you to do that. I expected you— or, more realistically, anyone caring to read this forum— to see the conceivable possibility of tunnel vision (ie selection of detail to support a biased outlook) in the MSM reporting on Trump’s administration, regarding Russia in this case.
Yeah, that’s why I watch episodes of Tucker Carlson and Hannity. Spare me your tunnel vision blindness speech.

I already acknowledged that Trump did some good things and gave my prescription for how one goes about evaluating a president. Feel free to engage in the conversation instead of pretending my views are the result of some kind of delusion for some kind of reason which I never made any sense out of.
#458
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,262
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ILikePie5
You clearly don’t know how stuff works in the White House lol. Might I suggest reading up on it first? 
The National security advisor is one of if not the most important position on the president’s staff.

“You get to spend more time with the president than any other member of the president’s national security team. You are the first person to see the president in the morning when the president shows up for work in the Oval Office and the last person to see the president before he or she makes any major foreign policy or national security decision.”

Also, “you are the person most likely to know the president’s mind on these issues,” he said. “You are involved in consequential matters that span the globe and affect the world.”

The idea that the president would allow his team to pick the candidate is absurd. Clearly, you are the one here who needs to read up on this position and how important it is. Please read the link.

I also couldn’t help but point out the whip lash of arguing with you and Cristo on this. According to him everything that happens within the federal government is credited to the president because he picks the team, while according to you if he didn’t do it personally he’s not really responsible. Funny how you guys refute each others arguments.

This is demonstrably false. Any other GOP candidate would’ve had us in a new war. Any other GOP candidate wouldn’t have built a wall. I could go on and on. Nobody would killed terrorist Qasim Soleimani. He’s not your average GOP candidate. If 2016 primaries didn’t show you that then you need to rewatch the debates.
New war with who?

The wall is still not built

You’re probably right about Soleimani, no other president would have been that dumb enough to risk war with Iran in order to kill one of their top generals only for them to be replaced with a more extreme general.

You guys act like Trump killed Osama Bin Laden. He didn’t. I’m willing to bet you had no idea who he was until this.

And there is evidence to support that executive officials in key states within the Election Board changed rules at the last minute because of COVID without express authority from the legislature.
So what? We were in a pandemic, adjusting the rules to fit the circumstances is not stealing an election.

#459
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,923
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@ILikePie5
@Double_R
And they ---the rational unbiased ones--    will understand Obama was natural born USA citizen.

This list of Trumpets falsehoods ---all of his life and politics---   is longer that number of farts that occur on Earth every 24 hrs.

The reason Trumpet is so popular is because the percentage USA who voted for him is based on the primary, 2ndary and 3rd-ary consideration of self and only  self.

..." To my fellow baby boomers, I’d like to remind you that in August of 1976 it was Tom Wolfe on the cover of New York magazine who declared our generation the “Me Generation.” We earned that title due to our perceived narcissism.

....It was in the 1970s that many of today’s health and exercise fads started. Have you forgotten the tracksuits we used to wear and the self-help books that were everywhere? What about “mood rings” that would let everyone around you know how happy or sad you were? Remember the big yellow Happy Face logo from the 60s that was popularized during the 70s, or the t-shirts with the big red heart that said, “I love New York.” Were those the “emojis” of the 1970s? "...

ME = narrcism at its worst, and, immediate biologically genetic survival mode at its best ex in theater on fire humans seeks oxygen for themselves, first and foremost even to extent of forgoing their children.

Trumpet = epitome of ME generation


#460
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,167
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Double_R
The idea that the president would allow his team to pick the candidate is absurd. Clearly, you are the one here who needs to read up on this position and how important it is. Please read the link.
Yup I love reading opinion rather than fact lmao. That was the dude’s opinion. John Bolton can be selected for a plurality of reasons that Trump’s advisors would’ve advised him on. Namely, the Chief of Staff, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, and even the Joint Chiefs of Staff. 

New war with who?
Lots of areas, namely the Middle East. Prime sources would’ve been Yemen and Syria.

The wall is still not built
A good portion of it is. Biden stopped the rest of the construction over the objections of the most qualified individuals in Border Security: the Border Patrol. 

You’re probably right about Soleimani, no other president would have been that dumb enough to risk war with Iran in order to kill one of their top generals only for them to be replaced with a more extreme general.
“Dumb.” Looks like you don’t care about our veterans and soldiers who have lost limbs and their lives throughout the decades. Soleimani was arguably the top influencer in the organization of militant groups and the support of Assad. I doubt his deputy has the same influence lol. 

You guys act like Trump killed Osama Bin Laden. He didn’t. I’m willing to bet you had no idea who he was until this.
Actually, I did cause I watched the GOP debates in 2016 :)
#461
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,552
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Double_R
Actually, logic escapes it. First of all, the US is not the only country in the world. Whether Donald Trump is president is not the one and only thing every world leader thinks about before they decide what is best for their country and whether they should go for it. This is exactly the kind of arrogance that makes so many people around the world hate us, because so many Americans like yourself literally believe the world revolves around us.
So, now you’re (unintentionally) making a case for the US leaving NATO not being a big deal? Try and stick to a consistent frame of reference and line of reasoning…

Third, Trump’s own hand picked National security advisor (the Prez picks the team and is therefore responsible right?) has already shared his view that Putin didn’t do this before because he was counting on Trump to pull the US out of NATO in a second term. This answer makes so much more sense than the silly idea that Putin didn’t do it then because he was so afraid of Trump. As if a world leader’s calculation for war is based on how tough the other guy talks, or whether he uses all caps on Twitter.
You (conveniently) omit that Trump was also responsible for firing Bolton after just 1.5 years.

My problems with Bolton’s thesis:
1. (First and foremost) Putin has invaded Ukraine with the US in NATO… it’s just a blunt fact now…
2. Bolton gave a totally different reason in another interview— he is grasping, it seems to me
3. Bolton has sour grapes from being openly fired, so him complaining about Trump is hardly compelling or profound
4. I already caught Bolton in a fib in an interview, so his credibility is in question (related to problem #3)
5. Bolton also complains about Biden’s decisions, so if he is to be listened to on Trump, he should also be listened to on Biden, the president you have opined as superior (the purportedly objective MSM also neglects to do this… not that I wonder why)

Yeah, that’s why I watch episodes of Tucker Carlson and Hannity. Spare me your tunnel vision blindness speech.
Your fallacious and feverish retort is noted.

I already acknowledged that Trump did some good things and gave my prescription for how one goes about evaluating a president. Feel free to engage in the conversation instead of pretending my views are the result of some kind of delusion for some kind of reason which I never made any sense out of.
You don’t think our pages long back and forth constitutes engagement? Or *you’re* attempting to engage while *I’m* refusing? THAT must be it! Well, it’s your world, and I just live in it, I guess.

*yawn* Man! I’m getting sleepy all of a sudden…

#462
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheUnderdog
Also, what matters (if you want to back only right wing countries) is if Russia is more right wing than Ukraine, which I doubt.
Erm... this is without question the case.
#463
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
@RM

How so?  What makes a country right wing?
#464
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
Erm... this is without question the case.

Azov wants you to hold their beer.
#465
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,173
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
-->
@ebuc
 The pipe line from Russia to Germany has been shut down to hurt Russia economically by not allowing Russia to sell oil or natural gas. Is this a  correct interpretation? Would shutting down pipelines in other countries also hurt those countries economies? Why is importing oil from other countries OK but producing oil domestically bad?
#466
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@ILikePie5
You talk shit about an Iranian General but what of the Russian generals literally committing terror over Ukraine right now by tricking 19 year olds into dying for a cause they didn't even understand when they were told to go on a special military operation.

19 year old men. 22 year old men. thousands of them.

this is fucking sickening.
#467
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheUnderdog
How so?  What makes a country right wing?
  1. rabid capitalism and oligarchy
  2. homophobia
  3. sexism
  4. ethnocentric attitudes
  5. jingoism
  6. censorship of pro-liberal, pro-left media and direct arrest and brutalising of improtant figures of such causes

#468
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,167
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
You talk shit about an Iranian General but what of the Russian generals literally committing terror over Ukraine right now by tricking 19 year olds into dying for a cause they didn't even understand when they were told to go on a special military operation.

19 year old men. 22 year old men. thousands of them.

this is fucking sickening.
Ya it’s shitty. No one is denying it lol. But reality is there are always gonna be shitty people in the world. I’m more concerned about domestic problems than Ukraine. Right now gas prices are more important to me than Ukraine
#469
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,923
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@RationalMadman
@ILikePie5
.." .Right now gas prices are more important to me than Ukraine "...
Trumpet = epitome of ME generation and Trumpet tapped into the underlying{ less spoken out in front } populism of  narrcism , racism and  bigotry.

NATO is about all-for-one and one-for-all. 

Just look at how much Putin and China are lying and hiding from truth.

They learned from Trumpet or the other way around,, Trumpet learned from them. There empathy centers in there brains have been turned off for some years.

Sing-along with the Orange Trumpist's, Putin and Ping

We all live in an Orange Submarine, on a little blue marble, out in space.

We all live in an Orange Submarine, on a little blue marble, out in space.

...' Closest Ever to Apocalypse: Doomsday Clock Remains at 100 Seconds to Midnight '....https://scitechdaily.com/closest-ever-to-apocalypse-doomsday-clock-remains-at-100-seconds-to-midnight/

#470
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,262
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ILikePie5
Yup I love reading opinion rather than fact lmao. That was the dude’s opinion.
Which is why I suggested you read the link. The opinion part was written after explaining what the job is, something you clearly do not understand being that you are still defending the notion that a president not be personally involved in choosing his own National security advisor.

A good portion of it is.
A bucket with holes in it does not hold water. You’re the one who claimed Trump “built it”. If all you’re saying is that he built portions of it then it’s not an accomplishment to be bragging about.

“Dumb.” Looks like you don’t care about our veterans and soldiers who have lost limbs and their lives throughout the decades.
Not worthy of a serious response.

Actually, I did cause I watched the GOP debates in 2016 :)
Congratulations. The vast majority of people propping this up as a major Trump accomplishment sure didn’t and if he were killed during the Biden or Obama administrations it would have gotten maybe one day of coverage on Fox News never to be spoken of again. Again, he wasn’t OBS. And then there was the whole photo op thing afterwards, I mean wow how pathetic.

#471
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,923
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@sadolite
Yes Sadolite, it all comes around to energy { oil, uranium/mineral etc } for 7.7 billion people --and growing---.

Yes Sadolite it all comes around to resources { energy as minerals/exotic water etc.

Ping{ China } and Putin { russia } are holding hands against the  USA { democracy/freedom of speech/protest etc }

India { abstention of UN vote } >< Pakistan { abstention of UN vote } is just waiting to blow each other to kingdom come at the drop of  a hat, and those nuclear weapons { H-bombs } alone would create enough dust in atmosphere for enough years to likely end humanities existence on Earth.

1} As Ive stated previously, I think Putin will get all that he has strategically planned to get.

2} Putin is a dictator like Ping, and Kim Ung Pooh { N. Korea } and we see how deprived a country can become under a dictator ex N. Korea ergo, Putin is betting that, in the long run, the sanctions are temporary cause others ---ex ME generation--- do not have the stomach for sacrifice voluntarily as much as as a dictator has the stomach to deprive its citizens of higher standard of living.

There is a name for this waiting it out scenario. Oh yeah, who ever blinks first looses.

However, there is an out for the ME generation, that, requires sacrifice ---and motivation { Pearl Harbor/Twin Towers } of their spirit--- and it is like  the quote I heard recently in the movie ..' A Good American '{ on HULU }..... , wherein, the mathematician who created Thinthread global traffic patterns of relationships  ---for the National Security Agency--- was called into Maureens office be notified their program was no longer going to get funded, and he in the movie quotes what maureen stated before he left the room, 9/11 is a blessing for the NSA.

Apparrently it was main man Vissmer and Black who was hired by Haydon, to come in from S.A.I.C corporation as private congtractors, to replace Thinthread with Trailblazer that eventually was proved to be complete failure, ---did not see 9/11 coming, and Thinthread did---   even tho B. Haydon was promoted two more times.

Trailblazer was all about ego, greed/money into pockets of a few.  Along the way we also see  Bush Jr and  D. Cheney






#472
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,262
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@cristo71
So, now you’re (unintentionally) making a case for the US leaving NATO not being a big deal?
Uh, no. I am explaining how the “strength of the US president” is not the sole factor other countries look at when making decisions.

You’re the one implying that Putin invaded because Biden and not Trump is in the Oval office. NATO has absolutely nothing to do with that argument.

My problems with Bolton’s thesis:
1. (First and foremost) Putin has invaded Ukraine with the US in NATO… it’s just a blunt fact now…
2. Bolton gave a totally different reason in another interview— he is grasping, it seems to me
3. Bolton has sour grapes from being openly fired, so him complaining about Trump is hardly compelling or profound
4. I already caught Bolton in a fib in an interview, so his credibility is in question (related to problem #3)
5. Bolton also complains about Biden’s decisions, so if he is to be listened to on Trump, he should also be listened to on Biden, the president you have opined as superior (the purportedly objective MSM also neglects to do this… not that I wonder why)
1. That’s not relevant. The point he was making is that Putin would have rather not had the US in NATO when he tried this, so it was worth waiting since that’s what he expected to happen.

2. Again, irrelevant. Bolton is not the point, his thesis makes perfect sense and addresses the claim that Putin’s timing is best explained by the lack of Trump’s ‘great strength’ in the oval office

3. This is such a tired Trump defender retort. People in high government positions get fired all the time. Never before have we ever seen such an onslaught of former officials coming out to tell the country what really happened during their time in the president’s administration.

4. Addressed in #2

5. Again, he’s not the point. But the fact that his words are used against Trump and not Biden is not hypocrisy, it’s common sense. Bolton didn’t serve in Biden’s administration, and Bolton is a life long Republican so him attacking democrats is not newsworthy.

You don’t think our pages long back and forth constitutes engagement?
Writing words and engaging are not the same thing. I give you credit more recently, but most of your points in the first few exchanges were focused more on me than it was on what I actually had to say. This was another example. I made my approach to evaluating a president clear, an essential factor in both of our positions. You’ve ignored that entire point which suggests a lack of seriousness on trying to make and any progress on our differences. 
#473
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,613
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

Once Trump got out of office, he wanted to destroy the Ukraine for working with Biden's son. He got Putin to invade by promising him a condo in the Moscow Trump Tower he will be building.
#474
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,552
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Double_R
Well, it’s about time for me to hop off our (not so) merry-go-round discussion. We, or at least I can agree to disagree. Clearly, you have your reasons for your views, and I have my reasons for my views.
#475
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@FLRW
 for working with Biden's son. 

That claim is a lie straight from far right extremist Nazi fake news. Biden's son never worked with Ukraine as he was dead at the time.
#476
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,613
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Greyparrot

LOL, what Comedy Club did you say you worked at?
#477
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@FLRW
Bobby Fischer's Nazi Palace.
#478
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,173
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
-->
@ebuc
So yes, shutting down pipelines hurts the economies in the countries that this is done in? I want to clear on this point. I also want to be clear on another point. Why is it OK for a country to import oil but bad to produce it domestically?
#479
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,923
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@sadolite
I believe that is what I saw on news.  Why does it hurt their economies is the next question. If Germany etc dont get oil from a pipe line that is in operation, or was meant to be in near furture, then they will need to get their petroleum or some other  energy source etc.  If your looking for answers to complex questions, I dont have them for you.

As to you 2nd question I again dont have answer to a complex question of this sort. 

I'm not sure who is best suited around here to answer your qeuestions. Rat man? Orange Parrot?
#480
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,173
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
-->
@ebuc
Why are these questions complex?